Pop doesn't get it... Small ball doesn't work and never has

[MultiTroll]

3 gots walk into a bar in Cleveland.

[XDT76]

Bowen had his moments too. I’m not a huge Draymond fan but he is definitely a guy you want on your team.

I agree but I just felt that he was somewhat overhyped bcos he was playing for the warriors and get away with quite a fair bit. He definitely has the grit and the BBIQ

[daslicer]

Bowen had his moments too. I’m not a huge Draymond fan but he is definitely a guy you want on your team.

Bowen didn't get special treatment from the refs to do illegal screens and hack and grab. Draymond certainly wouldn't get those calls if he played for the Spurs which would make him useless.

[daslicer]

So the Beautiful Game was 95% determined by the players who figured out by themselves the picks and screens and ball movements? I guess MJ taught himself the triangle offense? And players just decided by themselves how to attack zones, or how to defend Harden or closeout Steph. Interesting

I'll give you credit this take is not as dumb as your take when you said Detroit was winning les playing small ball when in fact, they weren't by starting two guys who were nearly 7ft tall.

Do you think the triangle, the '14 Spurs would have worked without Jordan-Pippen, Duncan-Manu-Parker guys who are HOFers? Some random coach would have had the same type of success with those players with any system they implemented because those players are great. There is a reason why "Great Coaches" can't succeed with bottom of the barrel talent like we are seeing right now with Pop because players talent largely determines how great a team is.

[daslicer]

They did it once without KD, playing 6’6” Draymond at center, and are poised for another run, also without KD.

During the '15 le run Bogut played Center who was 7ft tall and his backup was Speights who is 6'10 and played Center. Draymond hardly played center for them. It's amazing how you guys have to lie to sell the small ball narrative.

[rankingtear]

During the '15 le run Bogut played Center who was 7ft tall and his backup was Speights who is 6'10 and played Center. Draymond hardly played center for them. It's amazing how you guys have to lie to sell the small ball narrative.

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...4&LastNGames=6

[Gagnrath]

top 4 teams in each conference

1. Miami - Bam/Tucker at C/PF (not big ball, Tucker is 6'5")
2. Bulls - Vuc/Demar at C/PF (not big ball, Demar is 6'6")
3. Cleveland Allen/Mobley at C/PF (big ball)
4. 76ers - Embiid/Harris at C/PF (I don't really consider Harris a "big" on O or D, only 6'7")

1. Suns - Ayton/Crowder at C/PF (not big ball, Crowder is 6'7")
2. Warriors - Looney/Green at C/PF (not big ball, Green is 6'5")
3. Grizzlies - Adams/JJJ at C/PF (big ball)
4. Jazz - Gobert/O'Neal at C/PF (not big, O'Neal is 6'5")


I could keep going but you get the point. Only two of these teams play "big" and most of them start an undersized player at PF

It's not 2010 anymore guys. The days of two big teams are over unless one of them is an elite three point shooter

Its not an elite three point shooter that's needed at PF, it's a tall guy who is a bit more mobile that what was in past eras, and has decent shooting from three. The big reason for this is really a lack of dominate centers and high end Power forwards.

[LeBowen]

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...4&LastNGames=6

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

[rankingtear]

Draymond Green is an unusual case-- he's not tall, but his wingspan is 7''1" and his standing reach is 8'9". By comparison, Poeltl's wingspan is 7'2.75" and his standing reach is 8'9.5". Herb Jones of New Orleans (Primo's teammate at Alabama) is another guy like that, who has also been praised for his D this season: his height is 6'7.25", but his standing reach is 8'10"(better than Poeltl & Draymond) and his wingspan is 7'0.25".

It's really interesting how bone structure & such can lead to surprising measurements that often trick the simple eye test. You'd think that Poeltl being taller than Jones and having a larger wingspan would naturally mean he also had a bigger standing reach, but it's not the case.

Poeltl has 9'3.5 standing reach.

[Gagnrath]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

LeBron is a legitimate 6'8" and is listed as 6'9" (which was probably there in his early 20s fully straightened out and him still having hair ( that is and always has been power forward size) What made him special was his PF build with very good speed for a small forward, and very good ball handling and passing.

[R. DeMurre]

Poeltl has 9'3.5 standing reach.

oh, -- you're right. Thanks for the correction. There were some places where it was incorrectly reported: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...r-Review-5499/

[daslicer]

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...4&LastNGames=6

All I see is a bunch of line ups the Warriors played during the playoffs. I don't see no data the specifically says Draymond played an X amount minutes at center. Please post stats that say specifically he played a certain number of minutes at center. I know basketball reference has a tool that allows you to do this. So go look there and find it.

Let's say Draymond did actually play 1/3 of the time at center during the playoffs then it still proves my point small ball is not feasible since Draymond didn't play the majority of minutes at center. That is the debate here which is you can't build a team to play small ball for the majority of the game. It's just not doable.

[rankingtear]

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

Well it is the 14-15 season.

[daslicer]

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

Agreed. It's why I feel the Bucks will take out the Warriors if they face each other in the finals. Warriors have nobody that can match up defensively with Giannis. Draymond is too undersized and physically can't bully Giannis so he will get run over and curb stomped.

[Gagnrath]

Pop voted for biden
Enough said

Pop didn't make the choices, Between Trump and Biden is like choosing between kicked in the balls or sucker punched. When you go no I want a different choice, the system says well you can say something different but you're going to get whichever the majority says when asked between kicked in the junk or sucker-punched

[Gagnrath]

Bowen didn't get special treatment from the refs to do illegal screens and hack and grab. Draymond certainly wouldn't get those calls if he played for the Spurs which would make him useless.

Eh once you make an all defensive team you get some extra leeway, that hand which brushes the ball handlers side near the waist is balance not psuedo hand checking, that swipe which is borderline isn't reaching in. A bit more incidental contact is ok. Don't get me wrong it's not a peak LeBron carrying/travel level whistle swallow but having a all defensive team/DYOP votes helps a decent amount

[rankingtear]

All I see is a bunch of line ups the Warriors played during the playoffs. I don't see no data the specifically says Draymond played an X amount minutes at center. Please post stats that say specifically he played a certain number of minutes at center. I know basketball reference has a tool that allows you to do this. So go look there and find it.

Let's say Draymond did actually play 1/3 of the time at center during the playoffs then it still proves my point small ball is not feasible since Draymond didn't play the majority of minutes at center. That is the debate here which is you can't build a team to play small ball for the majority of the game. It's just not doable.

Yeah it adds up 32% of Draymond minutes are at C. If your hardly is 1/3 then I won't argue with you.

[Chinook]

LeBron is a legitimate 6'8" and is listed as 6'9" (which was probably there in his early 20s fully straightened out and him still having hair ( that is and always has been power forward size) What made him special was his PF build with very good speed for a small forward, and very good ball handling and passing.

Again, we've talked about this multiple times. I was responding to the people saying James/Davis would be small-ball now. James/Bosh already won, so either James isn't small-ball or James showed he can win if he is small-ball. In either event using the Lakers' front court as evidence of small-ball not working doesn't make sense.

[Leetonidas]

Its not an elite three point shooter that's needed at PF, it's a tall guy who is a bit more mobile that what was in past eras, and has decent shooting from three. The big reason for this is really a lack of dominate centers and high end Power forwards.

I didn't say it needed to be a PF. I said if you're running a two big lineup in 2022 one of them should be an elite shooter, which is definitely true

[John B]

I'll give you credit this take is not as dumb as your take when you said Detroit was winning les playing small ball when in fact, they weren't by starting two guys who were nearly 7ft tall.

Do you think the triangle, the '14 Spurs would have worked without Jordan-Pippen, Duncan-Manu-Parker guys who are HOFers? Some random coach would have had the same type of success with those players with any system they implemented because those players are great. There is a reason why "Great Coaches" can't succeed with bottom of the barrel talent like we are seeing right now with Pop because players talent largely determines how great a team is.

Look who's calling dumb who thinks basketball is only 5% coaching You think Coaching is just pacing in the sidelines monitoring fouls, game minutes, etc? Coaching includes ALL the preparations BEFORE and DURING games, preparing players, line-ups against teams, and specific players, creating mismatches, plays that highlights each players strength, etc. You said it's enough to have HOFers? Why do you think then that the Lakers with future Hofer's Lebron, AD, Melo, Westbrick, Howard are sub .500? If it's all about the players. You're a joke

So you think some random guy just thought of the "Beautiful Game" and implemented it, because as you said, coaching is just 5% of the game? Not considering that Spurs have 3 still very good, but out-of-their-prime future hofers, hmm.. passing big men, knockdown shooters? defensive perimeters? So assembling and harnessing the collective talent the personnel have, and make it a winning style of play is not coaching? Or put a random coach, you said. Do you really think Vogel, for example, could have figured that out? Or Luke Walton or maybe Chauncey Billups perhaps?

Regarding the 89-90 Pistons, I said "I consider" them a small ball because it was 1. highlighted 3 guards every time, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre and Vinnie "Microwave" coming off the bench, 2. Laimbeer, though 6'11", played not the typical big-man game, but shooting outside shots, 3 pointers, which at that time was not very common game for a big man. Pistons was not your typical dump-the-ball-in-the-post game compared to the McHalle/Parish and Jabbar in prior years. Don't get fixated on the height, it's the style of play that I'm talking about. But I guess it's difficult to comprehend when you think coaching is only 5% of the game

[LeBowen]

Well it is the 14-15 season.

The point still stands. Small ball only worked because other contenders didn't have bigs good enough to exploit it.

And it's not like Lebron didn't keep tearing them a new one every single game because there was no rim protection.

[daslicer]

Look who's calling dumb who thinks basketball is only 5% coaching You think Coaching is just pacing in the sidelines monitoring fouls, game minutes, etc? Coaching includes ALL the preparations BEFORE and DURING games, preparing players, line-ups against teams, and specific players, creating mismatches, plays that highlights each players strength, etc. You said it's enough to have HOFers? Why do you think then that the Lakers with future Hofer's Lebron, AD, Melo, Westbrick, Howard are sub .500? If it's all about the players. You're a joke

So you think some random guy just thought of the "Beautiful Game" and implemented it, because as you said, coaching is just 5% of the game? Not considering that Spurs have 3 still very good, but out-of-their-prime future hofers, hmm.. passing big men, knockdown shooters? defensive perimeters? So assembling and harnessing the collective talent the personnel have, and make it a winning style of play is not coaching? Or put a random coach, you said. Do you really think Vogel, for example, could have figured that out? Or Luke Walton or maybe Chauncey Billups perhaps?

Regarding the 89-90 Pistons, I said "I consider" them a small ball because it was 1. highlighted 3 guards every time, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre and Vinnie "Microwave" coming off the bench, 2. Laimbeer, though 6'11", played not the typical big-man game, but shooting outside shots, 3 pointers, which at that time was not very common game for a big man. Pistons was not your typical dump-the-ball-in-the-post game compared to the McHalle/Parish and Jabbar in prior years. Don't get fixated on the height, it's the style of play that I'm talking about. But I guess it's difficult to comprehend when you think coaching is only 5% of the game

1. Dwight is washed up, Westbrick is the most overrated player of all time. Lebron and AD have been injured all year. That pretty much explains why the lakers don't have a good record. If both Lebron and AD were healthy their record would be much better. Proving my point player's matter more than coaching.

2. I do believe any coach could have coached the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, the Manu-Duncan-Parker Spurs and even the '14 Spurs and still won. Great players make coaches look great not the other way around. Those guys you mentioned would have succeeded because their systems that normally fail with mediocre players would have thrived with the great players I mentioned. When it comes to assembling a roster, it is the GM that does that and not the coach.

3. You keep screaming the Pistons were a small ball team simply because offensively they didn't have post up players which is a stupid argument because my issue with small ball is the defensive side of the game. On the defensive side the Pistons were not playing small ball line ups that's why I keep bring up their PF-C being nearly 7 feet. This has been my argument for a while which is you can't win playing undersized defensively and the Pistons. It's obvious you are too stupid to comprehend what I have been stressing about small ball which it is a defensive liability.

[daslicer]

Eh once you make an all defensive team you get some extra leeway, that hand which brushes the ball handlers side near the waist is balance not psuedo hand checking, that swipe which is borderline isn't reaching in. A bit more incidental contact is ok. Don't get me wrong it's not a peak LeBron carrying/travel level whistle swallow but having a all defensive team/DYOP votes helps a decent amount

You only get special treatment if you play on the glamour teams in the big markets. I never seen small market players get special treatment. I would say when Bruce got away with things, he had to be sneaky for the refs not to catch him. Bruce was good at sneaking in cheap shots this is what allowed him to get underneath the skin of opponents. In Draymond's case he doesn't even have to be sneaky. He can be obvious with his grabbing, holding, hand checking, kicking.

[rankingtear]

The point still stands. Small ball only worked because other contenders didn't have bigs good enough to exploit it.

And it's not like Lebron didn't keep tearing them a new one every single game because there was no rim protection.

They went through MEM though that Gasol - ZBO is not nothing.

[emanueldavidginobili]

This team just doesn't have the personnel to play big this season. Small ball could work if we have the right guy to plug into that small ball PF position but the Spurs don't. Even if we had a PF and slid Keldon to the 3 Spurs would still have some problems there. Keldon is in a predicament, he clearly can't play the 4 and is too slow to play the 3 right now. He has a lot of work to do in the offseason, Draymond a couple weeks ago said he thinks KJ can be an All Star but has to lose 10-15 pounds. Going to have to wait until the offseason to hopefully address these issues nothing the Spurs really can do right now.