Report: Frustration growing between Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers regarding his availability

Originally Posted by Ice009

Ahh where have you been the last 30 years or whatever it's been? People used to talk about the Clippers being cursed well before Kawhi showed up, so if you believe in any kind of curse, that was something said about them well before he got there. Not that I believe in it, I think it was mostly due to Sterling being a terrible and cheap ass owner that bought all that bad luck on himself, always letting players go and not wanting to pay anyone long term.

To be fair, technically the Clippers have 13 rings since the owner of the Celtics moved them to San Diego to become the Clippers in 1978 while the Buffalo Braves moved to Boston, and then the teams swapped rosters and staff.

Originally Posted by SAGirl

That condition would require the resting he has needed. Spurs wanted him to play through the pain and he wouldn’t have any of it, he wanted at the time to recover to 100%. It’s possible he won’t ever be exactly as he was b4 the injury though he’s still a great player when healthy, but no longer a DPOY candidate even when healthy, so you see his intensity is not the same.

I also remember reading a leak that he had calcification in the tendon… I remember that because the jokes at the time were that he was growing bones/teeth in the thigh.

There is never a 100% recovery from that condition. It not ‘possible’ that he will never be what he was before, it’s certain.

Here’s an interesting story when Pop was asked about Timmy’s injury in the 78th game in 2000, in relation to Kawhi’s injury and Spurs conservative approach on resting their players. I think Kawhi’s would’ve been best treated by the Spurs had he trusted the Spurs:

https://www.ksat.com/sports/2018/01/...cussing-kawhi/

SAN ANTONIO – Lost in the hysteria about Kawhi Leonard’s injury status was an interesting revelation by Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich about Tim Duncan.
Popovich spoke to the media before Tuesday night’s game against the Cleveland Cavaliers and discussed the Spurs conservative approach to Leonard’s treatment for his quadriceps tendinopathy.
Part of Popovich’s comments included an admission that Duncan could have played in the 2000 NBA Playoffs after he tore the lateral meniscus in his left knee in the 78th game of the season, but the head coach did not want to risk the future of the team’s franchise player.


"If we’re going to error, as we have in the past, we’re going to do it on the conservative side. We kept Timmy Duncan out of a playoff one year because of a knee and he could have played,” Popovich said. "So I don’t see this as anything different than we have done with any other player, but some people for some reason want to do that (and) that’s OK. But it doesn’t affect our team or me, or anybody else.”


With Duncan out of the lineup, the Spurs lost their first round series against the Phoenix Suns, 3-1.
The decision may have cost the Spurs a shot at winning back-to-back championships, but was also a catalyst for the Spurs dynasty, which included four more championships with Duncan.
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ESPN.com profiled the decision in a 2012 article. Popovich was quoted in the article saying, "He was young, a franchise player. He wasn't just a No. 1 pick. With him, you've got an opportunity to win multiple championships, if you don't screw it up. I didn't know if (the injury) could get worse, or get chronic."


As frustrating as it has been to see Leonard on the sideline this season, the Spurs have an established track record for allowing players to rest and recuperate as needed, especially when it comes to the health of the cornerstone of the franchise the way Duncan was for nearly two decades.

Copyright 2018 by KSAT - All rights reserved.

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Who knows how more dominant Timmy could’ve been, winning back-to-back, but maybe a shortened career had he not listened to the Spurs. I guess two different scenarious with Timmy and Kawhi.

Originally Posted by John B

Who knows how more dominant Timmy could’ve been, winning back-to-back, but maybe a shortened career had he not listened to the Spurs. I guess two different scenarious with Timmy and Kawhi.

You’re assuming they would have beaten the lakers. That was before everyone hated everyone on the team and front office, and when Shaq actually put forth effort.

Originally Posted by John B

Who knows how more dominant Timmy could’ve been, winning back-to-back, but maybe a shortened career had he not listened to the Spurs. I guess two different scenarious with Timmy and Kawhi.

You're right , two different views on the same type of issue. As of now Timmy is the most important spur in franchise history and Kawhi is the most despised. Timmy got 5 rings in his career and helped Kawhi get half of his probably due in part to load management. The spurs used load management to extend Duncan's career and earn another championship. It seems Kawhi is using load management to expand his wallet. How many more rings will Kawhi get ? From this view probably none, especially if he keeps fleecing teams that only want to help him.

Originally Posted by SAGirl

That condition would require the resting he has needed. Spurs wanted him to play through the pain and he wouldn’t have any of it, he wanted at the time to recover to 100%. It’s possible he won’t ever be exactly as he was b4 the injury though he’s still a great player when healthy, but no longer a DPOY candidate even when healthy, so you see his intensity is not the same.

I also remember reading a leak that he had calcification in the tendon… I remember that because the jokes at the time were that he was growing bones/teeth in the thigh.

i never heard - and dont believe
that the spurs EVER expected ANY player to play thru the pain

in fact

the pain was already gone but if pushed too hard would return (therefore the load mgmt)

kawhi just refused to follow the CORRECT medical protocol and instead sought QUACKS opinions whose diagnosis would align with his own wishes

Originally Posted by exstatic

You’re assuming they would have beaten the lakers. That was before everyone hated everyone on the team and front office, and when Shaq actually put forth effort.

I think that year they would have beaten the Lakers. Spurs owned them during the regular season. Plus the Lakers had confidence issues to win in the big games. I don't see that Spurs team choking against them like the Blazers did. Also Kobe in '00 was not at the level he reached in '01 he was still about the same player he was in '99.

Originally Posted by jjspur

You're right , two different views on the same type of issue. As of now Timmy is the most important spur in franchise history and Kawhi is the most despised. Timmy got 5 rings in his career and helped Kawhi get half of his probably due in part to load management. The spurs used load management to extend Duncan's career and earn another championship. It seems Kawhi is using load management to expand his wallet. How many more rings will Kawhi get ? From this view probably none, especially if he keeps fleecing teams that only want to help him.

He has about one more big contract left in which he can fleece some desperate team. He will be 33 when he's a FA. Some team like the Knicks will be desperate and will throw everything at him.

Originally Posted by daslicer

He has about one more big contract left in which he can fleece some desperate team. He will be 33 when he's a FA. Some team like the Knicks will be desperate and will throw everything at him.

We’ll have to disagree on that. Seeing his latest ‘performance’, no team will max him out. He is ON his last max contract. If the Clips continue to underperform, he may actually get salary dumped. You can put together a first round out a lot cheaper than their current payroll. They actually had a nice thing going there before they caught Mute Cancer Fever.

Originally Posted by daslicer

He has about one more big contract left in which he can fleece some desperate team. He will be 33 when he's a FA. Some team like the Knicks will be desperate and will throw everything at him.

He might be 34 when he is an FA. I could see him opting in on that 2024-25 player option given his injury history. One thing is for certain his best days are far behind him.

Originally Posted by Spurs Homer

i never heard - and dont believe
that the spurs EVER expected ANY player to play thru the pain

in fact

the pain was already gone but if pushed too hard would return (therefore the load mgmt)

kawhi just refused to follow the CORRECT medical protocol and instead sought QUACKS opinions whose diagnosis would align with his own wishes

Theres pain with that condition. Maybe I didn’t express that correctly, but the condition causes pain in the muscle particularly after athletic activity, but sometimes in the morning and even sitting with legs stretched. It’s a chronic painful condition that is irreversible and needs to be managed.

That is what I meant by playing through pain. Look here at the symptoms: https://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/s...s-tendinopathy, Pain is most definitely a significant component.

Kawhi probably was in denial and struggled to accept such a devastating diagnosis for a pro athlete and started shopping for doctors who would give him a more favorable diagnosis/prognosis and promised to get him back to 100%, meaning there is no pain and no calcifications in his tendon, because what he has is something else that can be treated.

As it turned out, the Spurs were right that his condition would need to be managed and was irreversible. He has in fact needed rest games throughout the rest of his career from that point on.

A lot of fans at the time thought he was making this injury up and faking. I never believed that. He was recorded getting into a plane walking like an old man, and barely able to flex the leg while going up a set of stairs, and as Chinook mentioned, he’s lost so much playing time due to management of his condition, that he wouldn’t qualify for many league awards and accomplishments. Who knows what he could have accomplished were it not for that condition. He was on path to be recognized as league MVP, among other awards, had he remained healthy.

Originally Posted by ZeusWillJudge

Management: "Time to get back on the court, Kawhi."

Autist: "UH ohhh... Time for Wheel of Fortune. Definitely time for Wheel of Fortune."


Kawhi is as big a head case as Ron Artest or Vernon Maxwell were. A player you can really count on - except when you can't.

Calling Kawhi an "autist" is an insult to people who are autistic. Autistic children/ people aren't divas. I wish folks avoid treating mental disorders as insults.

The longer this draws out, the better the Spurs look.

The popular narrative when Kawhi left was "Spurs messed up, pissed off their superstar, doctors were wrong, blah blah blah"

And yes, Kawhi went to Toronto and led what was already a very good, ECF-level team to a le. So everyone thought "man, Spurs really bungled that one"

BUT...Kawhi's name has also become synonymous with the term load management. He's averaged only 56 games in the last three seasons he has been "healthy", and has famously flamed out in the playoffs a couple times and now just sat out an entire season. , even when he finished the le run in Toronto, it looked like he was running around on one leg.

The narrative seems to be turning around that maybe the Spurs doctors were on to something, and the FO was right for not trusting this dude to lead a franchise and make supermax money. And now it sounds like Kawhi and his crazy uncle are up to the same antics in Los Angeles. We heard all the same 4 years ago..."rushing him back, doctors misdiagnosed, etc etc". Good riddance.

Originally Posted by daslicer

I think that year they would have beaten the Lakers. Spurs owned them during the regular season. Plus the Lakers had confidence issues to win in the big games. I don't see that Spurs team choking against them like the Blazers did. Also Kobe in '00 was not at the level he reached in '01 he was still about the same player he was in '99.

I thought the same thing back then. They got confidence after winning it all in 2000. It was also the Portland series too that helped with Portland letting them off the hook. Portland could have and probably should have won that series. As you probably recall, they had a big lead heading into the 4th quarter of game 7 and let the Lakers off the hook. Pretty stacked Portland team too. I feel bad for Rasheed. He really was a great player at his best, could have ended up with at least 2-3 more rings if things bounced his way.

I also think the 2015 Warriors might not have won either if they faced a healthy Spurs team (Steve Kerr mentioned after winning it all, he expected to have to go through the Spurs. I think the Spurs would have had a mental edge). Even if the Spurs got past the Clippers, I think they would have had trouble due to Tiago being injured and a hobbling TP. Who knows, maybe Kawhi steps up after the Clippers series and plays better the rest of the way. A fully healthy Spurs team, though, I would have given the advantage over the not yet won a ring Warriors.

Originally Posted by Dex

The longer this draws out, the better the Spurs look.

The popular narrative when Kawhi left was "Spurs messed up, pissed off their superstar, doctors were wrong, blah blah blah"

And yes, Kawhi went to Toronto and led what was already a very good, ECF-level team to a le. So everyone thought "man, Spurs really bungled that one"

BUT...Kawhi's name has also become synonymous with the term load management. He's averaged only 56 games in the last three seasons he has been "healthy", and has famously flamed out in the playoffs a couple times and now just sat out an entire season. , even when he finished the le run in Toronto, it looked like he was running around on one leg.

The narrative seems to be turning around that maybe the Spurs doctors were on to something, and the FO was right for not trusting this dude to lead a franchise and make supermax money. And now it sounds like Kawhi and his crazy uncle are up to the same antics in Los Angeles. We heard all the same 4 years ago..."rushing him back, doctors misdiagnosed, etc etc". Good riddance.

I've got to ask, which two times did he flame out in the playoffs? In 2020, they choked the 3-1 to the Nuggets, but apart from that, the other two healthy-ish seasons (2019 & 2021), Kawhi won one ring and last season if he didn't get hurt, I think the Clippers could have won it all (I think they would have beaten the Suns and at least made the finals). Out of the last three seasons he's played, he might have been load managing throughout the season, but when he's played, he's been in pretty good form (up until the ACL injury that knocked him out of the playoffs last season and all of this season), so yeah, even though he's load managed, I don't recall ever seeing him play terrible during the time he did play. He also made his team a championship contender all three of those seasons (If the Clippers didn't choke the Nuggets series, they could have had a good chance to win it that year too. At worst, I would have given them a 50/50 chance against the Lakers).

Originally Posted by Ice009

I've got to ask, which two times did he flame out in the playoffs? In 2020, they choked the 3-1 to the Nuggets, but apart from that, the other two healthy-ish seasons (2019 & 2021), Kawhi won one ring and last season if he didn't get hurt, I think the Clippers could have won it all (I think they would have beaten the Suns and at least made the finals). Out of the last three seasons he's played, he might have been load managing throughout the season, but when he's played, he's been in pretty good form (up until the ACL injury that knocked him out of the playoffs last season and all of this season), so yeah, even though he's load managed, I don't recall ever seeing him play terrible during the time he did play. He also made his team a championship contender all three of those seasons (If the Clippers didn't choke the Nuggets series, they could have had a good chance to win it that year too. At worst, I would have given them a 50/50 chance against the Lakers).

It's probably not fair and I think we all agree injuries suck, BUT...with his history of injuries, I guess I consider him going down in last season's playoffs kinda "flaming out". So, 2020 and 2021.

It seemed like a freak accident that happened with minimal contact, but these are all things that could be related to his repeated leg and health issues.

I agree that when Kawhi is HEALTHY and on the floor, he is still a beast. The problem is...it's getting harder and harder to actually rely on that being the case. It will be interesting to see what he looks like after an ACL rehab, but I don't expect him to come back BETTER.

And again...his off-court demands and demeanor are just off-putting. We can all agree that guy has a hard time staying healthy. He plays partial seasons, gets hurt, and then gets mad at team doctors for calling it like it is. It's bull , tbh

Funny that Clippers fan finding out how bull y Nephew is while Bulls fan realize how Demar sucks in playoff games…

who the is this kawhi leonard fella?

Originally Posted by Dex

It's probably not fair and I think we all agree injuries suck, BUT...with his history of injuries, I guess I consider him going down in last season's playoffs kinda "flaming out". So, 2020 and 2021.

It seemed like a freak accident that happened with minimal contact, but these are all things that could be related to his repeated leg and health issues.

I agree that when Kawhi is HEALTHY and on the floor, he is still a beast. The problem is...it's getting harder and harder to actually rely on that being the case. It will be interesting to see what he looks like after an ACL rehab, but I don't expect him to come back BETTER.

And again...his off-court demands and demeanor are just off-putting. We can all agree that guy has a hard time staying healthy. He plays partial seasons, gets hurt, and then gets mad at team doctors for calling it like it is. It's bull , tbh

I agree with all that you've said, as yeah, the ACL injury could have been due to his leg issues, but it also could have been a freak thing. Hard to say, but I definitely won't disagree with what you said as that is very possible.

I just wanted to point out to people that even though he's done all this load management stuff the past 3 seasons he's played, his teams have been championship contenders and Kawhi has been pretty darn good in the games he's played. Also, he's been great the past few playoffs averaging 30.5ppg in 2019, 28.4 in 2020 and 30.4 in 2021 (His worst series was the Denver series where he still averaged 24.3ppg, just 0.1ppg away from Jokic being the top scorer of the series. He did have some bad games in the series, but also, the Nuggets played great team ball those last three games to eliminate the Clippers), but apart from the Denver series, those playoff numbers the past three years would be considered elite for most players.

All Kawhi needs to do to secure another max contract is have a really good playoff series in the 3rd or 4th year of his current contract. If it's in the 3rd year he'll opt out of the final year. Then someone will roll the dice with a max contract.

Originally Posted by rjv

who the is this kawhi leonard fella?

Some guy with big hands who used to roam around the AT&T Center.

Originally Posted by JPB

Some guy with big hands who used to limp around the AT&T Center.

Fixed it for you

Originally Posted by exstatic

You’re assuming they would have beaten the lakers. That was before everyone hated everyone on the team and front office, and when Shaq actually put forth effort.

And then Portland would have been a horrible matchup in the WCF if they beat LA, especially with no Sean and the rule changes that neutered Mario Elie's defense and basically ended his career.

Originally Posted by baseline bum

And then Portland would have been a horrible matchup in the WCF if they beat LA, especially with no Sean and the rule changes that neutered Mario Elie's defense and basically ended his career.

Spurs had Sean during the '00 playoffs.