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  1. #1
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    The stupefying process plays out differently on the right and the left because their activist wings subscribe to different narratives with different sacred values. The “Hidden Tribes” study tells us that the “devoted conservatives” score highest on beliefs related to authoritarianism. They share a narrative in which America is eternally under threat from enemies outside and subversives within; they see life as a battle between patriots and traitors. According to the political scientist Karen Stenner, whose work the “Hidden Tribes” study drew upon, they are psychologically different from the larger group of “traditional conservatives” (19 percent of the population), who emphasize order, decorum, and slow rather than radical change.

    Only within the devoted conservatives’ narratives do Donald Trump’s speeches make sense, from his campaign’s ominous opening diatribe about Mexican “rapists” to his warning on January 6, 2021: “If you don’t fight like , you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

    The traditional punishment for treason is death, hence the battle cry on January 6: “Hang Mike Pence.” Right-wing death threats, many delivered by anonymous accounts, are proving effective in cowing traditional conservatives, for example in driving out local election officials who failed to “stop the steal.” The wave of threats delivered to dissenting Republican members of Congress has similarly pushed many of the remaining moderates to quit or go silent, giving us a party ever more divorced from the conservative tradition, cons utional responsibility, and reality. We now have a Republican Party that describes a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol as “legitimate political discourse,” supported—or at least not contradicted—by an array of right-wing think tanks and media organizations.

    The stupidity on the right is most visible in the many conspiracy theories spreading across right-wing media and now into Congress. “Pizzagate,” QAnon, the belief that vaccines contain microchips, the conviction that Donald Trump won reelection—it’s hard to imagine any of these ideas or belief systems reaching the levels that they have without Facebook and Twitter.

    The Democrats have also been hit hard by structural stupidity, though in a different way. In the Democratic Party, the struggle between the progressive wing and the more moderate factions is open and ongoing, and often the moderates win. The problem is that the left controls the commanding heights of the culture: universities, news organizations, Hollywood, art museums, advertising, much of Silicon Valley, and the teachers’ unions and teaching colleges that shape K–12 education. And in many of those ins utions, dissent has been stifled: When everyone was issued a dart gun in the early 2010s, many left-leaning ins utions began shooting themselves in the brain. And unfortunately, those were the brains that inform, instruct, and entertain most of the country.

    Liberals in the late 20th century shared a belief that the sociologist Christian Smith called the “liberal progress” narrative, in which America used to be horrifically unjust and repressive, but, thanks to the struggles of activists and heroes, has made (and continues to make) progress toward realizing the noble promise of its founding. This story easily supports liberal patriotism, and it was the animating narrative of Barack Obama’s presidency. It is also the view of the “traditional liberals” in the “Hidden Tribes” study (11 percent of the population), who have strong humanitarian values, are older than average, and are largely the people leading America’s cultural and intellectual ins utions.

    But when the newly viralized social-media platforms gave everyone a dart gun, it was younger progressive activists who did the most shooting, and they aimed a disproportionate number of their darts at these older liberal leaders. Confused and fearful, the leaders rarely challenged the activists or their nonliberal narrative in which life at every ins ution is an eternal battle among iden y groups over a zero-sum pie, and the people on top got there by oppressing the people on the bottom. This new narrative is rigidly egalitarian––focused on equality of outcomes, not of rights or opportunities. It is unconcerned with individual rights.

    The universal charge against people who disagree with this narrative is not “traitor”; it is “racist,” “transphobe,” “Karen,” or some related scarlet letter marking the perpetrator as one who hates or harms a marginalized group. The punishment that feels right for such crimes is not execution; it is public shaming and social death.

    You can see the stupefaction process most clearly when a person on the left merely points to research that questions or contradicts a favored belief among progressive activists. Someone on Twitter will find a way to associate the dissenter with racism, and others will pile on. For example, in the first week of protests after the killing of George Floyd, some of which included violence, the progressive policy analyst David Shor, then employed by Civis Analytics, tweeted a link to a study showing that violent protests back in the 1960s led to electoral setbacks for the Democrats in nearby counties. Shor was clearly trying to be helpful, but in the ensuing outrage he was accused of “anti-Blackness” and was soon dismissed from his job. (Civis Analytics has denied that the tweet led to Shor’s firing.)

    The Shor case became famous, but anyone on Twitter had already seen dozens of examples teaching the basic lesson: Don’t question your own side’s beliefs, policies, or actions. And when traditional liberals go silent, as so many did in the summer of 2020, the progressive activists’ more radical narrative takes over as the governing narrative of an organization. This is why so many epistemic ins utions seemed to “go woke” in rapid succession that year and the next, beginning with a wave of controversies and resignations at The New York Times and other newspapers, and continuing on to social-justice pronouncements by groups of doctors and medical associations (one publication by the American Medical Association and the Association of American Medical Colleges, for instance, advised medical professionals to refer to neighborhoods and communities as “oppressed” or “systematically divested” instead of “vulnerable” or “poor”), and the hurried transformation of curricula at New York City’s most expensive private schools.

    Tragically, we see stupefaction playing out on both sides in the COVID wars. The right has been so committed to minimizing the risks of COVID that it has turned the disease into one that preferentially kills Republicans. The progressive left is so committed to maximizing the dangers of COVID that it often embraces an equally maximalist, one-size-fits-all strategy for vaccines, masks, and social distancing—even as they pertain to children. Such policies are not as deadly as spreading fears and lies about vaccines, but many of them have been devastating for the mental health and education of children, who desperately need to play with one another and go to school; we have little clear evidence that school closures and masks for young children reduce deaths from COVID. Most notably for the story I’m telling here, progressive parents who argued against school closures were frequently savaged on social media and met with the ubiquitous leftist accusations of racism and white supremacy. Others in blue cities learned to keep quiet.

    American politics is getting ever more ridiculous and dysfunctional not because Americans are getting less intelligent. The problem is structural. Thanks to enhanced-virality social media, dissent is punished within many of our ins utions, which means that bad ideas get elevated into official policy.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-babel/629369/
    Last edited by vy65; 04-18-2022 at 10:10 AM.

  2. #2
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    This following definitely caught my attention when encountering such freakish behavior on this board. Isolation leads to weird consequences for evolutionarily built social structures.
    We were made to interact face to face, and looking at body language etc... Fortunately I still get to do this as well as a lot of exercise outside with and without other people. So I completely dont get using purposely incorrect information to make decisions because where I work this is absolutely the worst thing you can do to accomplish a task.

    Once social-media platforms had trained users to spend more time performing and less time connecting, the stage was set for the major transformation, which began in 2009: the intensification of viral dynamics.

  3. #3
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
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    Please. 1 event and 1 event only changed everything. And you know what it was without me stating it, but I will nonetheless...

    Trump President.
    Not Clinton.

  4. #4
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    The left controlling news organizations and Silicon Valley

  5. #5
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Must be why MSNBC, NY Times, and the Washington Post pushed Bernie so hard over Clinton and Biden

  6. #6
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    The left controlling news organizations and Silicon Valley
    Must be why MSNBC, NY Times, and the Washington Post pushed Bernie so hard over Clinton and Biden
    Those news organizations are still left of center. Viewed from Bernie's perspective, they are more center-right leaning. However, that perspective is from a political edge, and not the center, which is one of the central things criticized.

  7. #7
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    The left has an iden y crisis. They are run by old school dems but the liberals are more than willing to call them out for not throwing enough darts at their own group. This is what happens when blind inclusion results in electing enemies of the state.

  8. #8
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    This is what happens when blind inclusion results in electing enemies of the state.
    The “Hidden Tribes” study tells us that the “devoted conservatives” score highest on beliefs related to authoritarianism. They share a narrative in which America is eternally under threat from enemies outside and subversives within; they see life as a battle between patriots and traitors.

  9. #9
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    The article has good insights but what the both-sidesing fails to acknowledge is that while the moderate Republicans are being driven out by the crazy wing of the party (with the approval of people who would still consider themselves moderate), the moderate-to-conservative Democrats still have firm control over their party. For better or worse.

  10. #10
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Our research concludes that we have become a set of tribes, with different codes, values, and even facts. In our public debates, it seems that we no longer just disagree. We reject each other’s premises and doubt each other’s motives. We question each other’s character. We block our ears to diverse perspectives. At home, polarization is souring personal relationships, ruining Thanksgiving dinners, and driving families apart.

  11. #11
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    The article has good insights but what the both-sidesing fails to acknowledge is that while the moderate Republicans are being driven out by the crazy wing of the party (with the approval of people who would still consider themselves moderate), the moderate-to-conservative Democrats still have firm control over their party. For better or worse.
    It's about personality and ability to win. Your stance means jack if you cannot win the office.

  12. #12
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Those news organizations are still left of center. Viewed from Bernie's perspective, they are more center-right leaning. However, that perspective is from a political edge, and not the center, which is one of the central things criticized.
    Not even close, those news organizations are pure 100% moderate Democrat mouthpieces, there is no opposition whatsoever to moderate Democrat agendas from these supposedly leftist news companies. Bernie is the centrist, more than half the country wants single payer healthcare instead of the current mess we have and that has been Sanders' main focus for the last decade. Sanders represents the majority but what the people want means jack in this nation.

  13. #13
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Not even close, those news organizations are pure 100% moderate Democrat mouthpieces, there is no opposition whatsoever to moderate Democrat agendas from these supposedly leftist news companies. Bernie is the centrist, more than half the country wants single payer healthcare instead of the current mess we have and that has been Sanders' main focus for the last decade. Sanders represents the majority but what the people want means jack in this nation.
    meh

    "medicare for all" polls well

    when people are actually polled on what that entails of (banning private health insurance), it performs much worse

  14. #14
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    meh

    "medicare for all" polls well

    when people are actually polled on what that entails of (banning private health insurance), it performs much worse
    Yeah if you frame it like they're losing something, bureaucrats getting in between you and your doctor, etc

  15. #15
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Good article for the most part.

    Like any centrist that tries to sound unbiased, the author tries to "both sides" it a bit much. The right and the left are not by any means equally radicalized.

  16. #16
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    meh

    "medicare for all" polls well

    when people are actually polled on what that entails of (banning private health insurance), it performs much worse
    medicare for all doesn't have to ban private insurance. It can provide the same service at much lower costs, so many private insurers who have to pay big bucks to their shareholders at the policyholders expense will find it very hard to compete.

  17. #17
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    medicare for all doesn't have to ban private insurance. It can provide the same service at much lower costs, so many private insurers who have to pay big bucks to their shareholders at the policyholders expense will find it very hard to compete.
    medicare for all, as proposed by bernie sanders, does

  18. #18
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Good article for the most part.

    Like any centrist that tries to sound unbiased, the author tries to "both sides" it a bit much. The right and the left are not by any means equally radicalized.
    I don't think that if you asked Haidt (certainly if you asked me) that he'd say that the left and the right are equal in tiness. They're not, the right is worse.

    What's more interesting to me is that yours, and BB's, and I suspect other's reactions to the article is: the left is better than the right. That seems to miss the overarching point of the article - both right and left are being hijacked by extremist elements that have weaponized social media. In that respect, I think left and right are equal.

  19. #19
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The left has an iden y crisis. They are run by old school dems but the liberals are more than willing to call them out for not throwing enough darts at their own group. This is what happens when blind inclusion results in electing enemies of the state.
    your party is the one committing and planning more treason.

  20. #20
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I don't think that if you asked Haidt (certainly if you asked me) that he'd say that the left and the right are equal in tiness. They're not, the right is worse.

    What's more interesting to me is that yours, and BB's, and I suspect other's reactions to the article is: the left is better than the right. That seems to miss the overarching point of the article - both right and left are being hijacked by extremist elements that have weaponized social media. In that respect, I think left and right are equal.
    i think this is disingenuous both-sides'ing

    im not talking about twitter randos. if you look at the actual elected representatives between the parties, how many elected members of congress are "loony far left"... i mean for the sake of argument id grant the obvious Cori Bush, and then you can work through Omar, Tlaib, Pressley, AOC (thought i'd also argue AOC has tamed quite a bit). in the senate you have bernie (though he's much more measured than any of the others i mentioned).

    so first, id ask who else you would consider part of the "extremist element" of the left that currently has power. second, i'd ask if this extremist wing actually is "hijacking" the party. are these people really the ones deciding which way the party goes? absolutely not.

    otoh, you look at the right, and honestly you can just start and end with Trump. the guy who called Mo Brooks "woke" because Brooks said the 2020 election is over. Mo Brooks. Woke. trump is still by far the most influential voice on the right. the whole party, even those who dont openly support his election nonsense, are still trying to appease him by constantly centering all discussions around election integrity.

    there's no comparison. and thats without even getting into the substance of policy.

  21. #21
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    its not really centrism if you are giving equal footing to disproportionate levels of craziness. its like saying "some people say bigfoot is real. others say he's fake. clearly both sides have a problem and cant compromise"

  22. #22
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    its not really centrism if you are giving equal footing to disproportionate levels of craziness. its like saying "some people say bigfoot is real. others say he's fake. clearly both sides have a problem and cant compromise"

  23. #23
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    i think this is disingenuous both-sides'ing

    im not talking about twitter randos. if you look at the actual elected representatives between the parties, how many elected members of congress are "loony far left"... i mean for the sake of argument id grant the obvious Cori Bush, and then you can work through Omar, Tlaib, Pressley, AOC (thought i'd also argue AOC has tamed quite a bit). in the senate you have bernie (though he's much more measured than any of the others i mentioned).

    so first, id ask who else you would consider part of the "extremist element" of the left that currently has power. second, i'd ask if this extremist wing actually is "hijacking" the party. are these people really the ones deciding which way the party goes? absolutely not.

    otoh, you look at the right, and honestly you can just start and end with Trump. the guy who called Mo Brooks "woke" because Brooks said the 2020 election is over. Mo Brooks. Woke. trump is still by far the most influential voice on the right. the whole party, even those who dont openly support his election nonsense, are still trying to appease him by constantly centering all discussions around election integrity.

    there's no comparison. and thats without even getting into the substance of policy.
    I think you're narrowing the scope of the article and the issue with this caveat. Like I said, the right is worse. I think Haidt would agree with me too. What he and I would take issue though is that you're focusing on elected officials and, rightfully, saying those on the right are worse. We get it - they are. But there is a cultural dynamic that is going on that you're not appreciating/losing out on when you focus on elected officials in Washington.

    What's being lost out are twitter randos, activists, academics, and other cultural outlets like actors, musicians, etc... The cultural ins utions Haidt identifies have had and are having a profound effect on the way we talk and think about (from both perspectives) and the loudest voices in the room are coming from the extremes and not the center. While that may not be reflected in congress yet doesn't mean it's not happening.

  24. #24
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Good article.


    Lol, all the complaints of "both-sides'ing".

  25. #25
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Good article for the most part.

    Like any centrist that tries to sound unbiased, the author tries to "both sides" it a bit much. The right and the left are not by any means equally radicalized.
    You're not properly calibrated to be a standard for that assessment.

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