Deandre Ayton, the final piece of the puzzle?

[RC_Drunkford]

I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.

That doesn't make no sense. Like it's his fault he didn't have no post ups. They were never looking to dump it to him in the post, which is what they should have done especially in game 7 when they couldn't hit anything

[RC_Drunkford]

I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitc , and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

Mitc is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

The real question is...if Mitc leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?

that would be stupid tbh. The one thing with Gobert is that he gets ran off the floor once teams go small. In that case he's useless cause he can't punish smaller guys in the paint on the other end

[Dex]

that would be stupid tbh. The one thing with Gobert is that he gets ran off the floor once teams go small. In that case he's useless cause he can't punish smaller guys in the paint on the other end

Counterpoint: How far does a team with Mitc and...some other star go?

If you bring in another guard, they're basically the Blazers 2.0. And the only bigs they could bring in would be like an Ayton or Randle...and I don't see that getting them any further than they have been. Probably worse.

Otherwise...there aren't a whole lot of star wings changing spots right now because they are so highly coveted.

I agree that Gobert can be neutralized by small, shooting lineups...but there are very few players left in the NBA that can single-handedly change a team's defense and he is one of them.

Not saying I'm right or your wrong....just thinking out loud. But I'd be highly surprised if Gobert is not on the Jazz next season.

[Chinook]

No, I'm saying they should have a legit chance, which is unusual for players of or above his caliber.

It's not unusual for the Spurs to have a chance to overpay someone. Their money spends like everyone else. If they have a chance to sign him, they have a chance to sign someone else. This isn't even a Lavine situation with a lot of little connections that might add up. Ayton's just a guy who's an RFA. He's given no indication he wants to go to SA any more than, say, Orlando.

Ayton is clearly their third best player (teams likely favoring Bridges and maybe Johnson because of position is not the same thing) and in the right context he's capable of being the second best player on a legit playoff team.

If small-forward is such a premium that it devalues a center, why are the Spurs trying to trade assets and cap space for a center? They certainly need a SF themselves, and maxing Ayton and trading a top-10 pick for the privilege removes most of their way of acquiring one. They won't be able to draft one, trade for one or sign one with this move. And they already have a center to boot.

You absolutely can and you'd be naive to think teams aren't doing so.

No, you literally can't. That's why this isn't done. I said this in my first post in this discussion:

You cannot sign-and-trade using picks made during a draft. No, you also can't discuss it beforehand and just execute it afterward. No, you can't have a wink-wink deal to do the trade and pretend like it wasn't discussed. And no, it's not done all the time and would not be allowed.

In the three responses we've had so far, you've gone through each subsequent level of my response. No, no, no and no. None of those ways are true. This wouldn't work. It doesn't happen, and it's not the way things are done. Looking at the history of transactions and especially the past two off-seasons show this.

He's got a good argument for 6th best C in the league and because he's more versatile, he's arguably better equipped for the playoffs than Gobert. You act like he's Bagley III.

If Ayton is only the sixth-best center, why on Earth are we talking about the Spurs maxing him? You're talking about a non-elite guy at a non-premium position, and you're assuming that the Spurs should give him $131M/4 AND trade essentially two lottery picks for him AND give up on signing anyone else with their cap space. For the guy who graded out to be the 88th-most impactful guy last season. Come on, now. Even if he's better than Poeltl (which is debatable), he's not so much better that it wouldn't be in the team's best interest to use their assets and flexibility on other targets while having Poeltl on their roster.

I said they had time.

They don't really have time, because their flexibility shrinks once Ayton is matched. There are a couple of advantages to agreeing to a contract and trading him later (getting around the BYC is a big one), but matching as a leverage tactic isn't one of those. If they match, they're paying the tax bill and potentially damaging their team's chemistry in their last year with Paul.

I realize that, but it doesn't have to be him.

You mean they could trade away someone they want to keep in order to keep a guy they want to dump? Why not just let the guy you want to dump go and not try to squeeze other franchises for no reason? They'd have a much better team if they come correct on a deal in the summer, than hoping a disgruntled Ayton will agree to a deal with a team that has the rare flexibility to get the Suns saving at the deadline.

Maybe, but if you think a young player of this magnitude and pedigree is going to be virtually handed away, you're just as delusional as thinking he's merely some run of the mill rim runner.

You think a first and a useful player along with a TE is nothing. That's pretty good for a team in a S&T. If the Suns want to keep him, they'll keep him. But they aren't going to both be low on him and force teams to bid high on him. This isn't a superstar asking out. This is a free agent who is try to leave. Letting him walk for nothing is very much a risk, and they aren't going to get full value, especially not the value you're ascribing to him.

[TD 21]

It's not unusual for the Spurs to have a chance to overpay someone. Their money spends like everyone else. If they have a chance to sign him, they have a chance to sign someone else.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

If small-forward is such a premium that it devalues a center, why are the Spurs trying to trade assets and cap space for a center? They certainly need a SF themselves, and maxing Ayton and trading a top-10 pick for the privilege removes most of their way of acquiring one. They won't be able to draft one, trade for one or sign one with this move. And they already have a center to boot.

Again, the Spurs are in a "soft" rebuild where they refuse to tank, are unlikely to have the best odds at the highest picks, aren't attractive to superstars/stars nor do they have the best assets to offer for one, so someone of this caliber and age is right in their wheelhouse.

Between Johnson and Vassell, the Spurs might have their "SF" of the future.

No, you literally can't. That's why this isn't done. I said this in my first post in this discussion:


In the three responses we've had so far, you've gone through each subsequent level of my response. No, no, no and no. None of those ways are true. This wouldn't work. It doesn't happen, and it's not the way things are done. Looking at the history of transactions and especially the past two off-seasons show this.

So you're naive enough to believe tampering has been curtailed because the NBA said it's cracking down.

If Ayton is only the sixth-best center, why on Earth are we talking about the Spurs maxing him? You're talking about a non-elite guy at a non-premium position, and you're assuming that the Spurs should give him $131M/4 AND trade essentially two lottery picks for him AND give up on signing anyone else with their cap space. For the guy who graded out to be the 88th-most impactful guy last season. Come on, now. Even if he's better than Poeltl (which is debatable), he's not so much better that it wouldn't be in the team's best interest to use their assets and flexibility on other targets while having Poeltl on their roster.

Sixth was a typo. I meant 7th. Anyway, again, within' the context of their situation, are they likely to do as well or better anytime soon? He's also not a finished product. You're also getting too hung up on the exact parameters instead of the premise. I'm not saying get him at all costs, I'm saying he's among the players they should be pursuing.

So now certain advanced stats matter again but when you wanted to pretend DeRozan was better than he was for years, then they didn't.

They don't really have time

You like technicalities, so here's one for you again: They have until the trade deadline to get under the tax and there are myriad ways to do it. Period, end of story.

You think a first and a useful player along with a TE is nothing. That's pretty good for a team in a S&T. If the Suns want to keep him, they'll keep him. But they aren't going to both be low on him and force teams to bid high on him. This isn't a superstar asking out. This is a free agent who is try to leave. Letting him walk for nothing is very much a risk, and they aren't going to get full value, especially not the value you're ascribing to him.

That's not what I said. They may not get full value, but they'll damn sure do better than you seem to think he's worth, the same way the Spurs did DeRozan.

[Chinook]

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Now, you just don't feel like engaging with the point. You can't simultaneously believe Ayton would want to sign with the Spurs and that no one wants to sign with the Spurs.

Again, the Spurs are in a "soft" rebuild where they refuse to tank, are unlikely to have the best odds at the highest picks, aren't attractive to superstars/stars nor do they have the best assets to offer for one, so someone of this caliber and age is right in their wheelhouse.

Even you don't think Ayton is top five at his position. He's not of any "caliber" besides being a high pick.

So you're naive enough to believe tampering has been curtailed because the NBA said it's cracking down.

The league hasn't said they're cracking down. They have actually started. What you're proposing isn't clever. It's like a wife thinking of cheating on her husband to get pregnant and say it's his, but doing so when he's on a month-long vacation. It doesn't matter how much you "wink-wink". It doesn't matter how "realistic" you are about what really happens or whatever. It doesn't matter if you never tell the truth. It's extremely obvious you did something, and you're going to get caught. You can laugh as much as you want, but it's not the way it works. You didn't understand a simple issue with an article from a ty source, and now you can't keep defending it.

Anyway, again, within' the context of their situation, are they likely to do as well or better anytime soon?

They don't have to get a better center. That's the least of their problems.

You're also getting too hung up on the exact parameters instead of the premise. I'm not saying get him at all costs, I'm saying he's among the players they should be pursuing.

Your premise is that the should make a huge move just to say they've made a move. We've talked a lot about our desires for the Spurs to be aggressive. I'm not against that idea at all. But Ayton isn't that. Trading Poeltl for 13, throwing a max offer sheet at Ayton and using the pick to move up and grab a guy you think is a star? Maybe. It wouldn't be my first goal, but it would be an interesting way to potentially gather a young core. Would I lock myself out of future improvement, remove almost all my flexibility and risk tampering charges for the "seventh-best" center in the league? No.

So now certain advanced stats matter again but when you wanted to pretend DeRozan was better than he was for years, then they didn't.

There's a difference when we're talking about role-players. Ayton isn't setting the tone from which other guys can thrive. He's one of the guys thriving from players setting the tone. Though to be fair I wouldn't trade this for DeRozan or Lavine either. It's bad asset management.

You like technicalities, so here's one for you again: They have until the trade deadline to get under the tax and there are myriad ways to do it. Period, end of story.

Maybe you think this was a tough way to end the point, but it sound petulant. After they match that offer sheet, they no longer have the choice of whether Ayton is on their team after the deadline next year. It becomes their mutual choice. That's why the clock is basically on them this off-season. They don't want to get into a pissing match with a guy they're trying to move. Ask Philly how much that does for trade value.

That's not what I said. They may not get full value, but they'll damn sure do better than you seem to think he's worth, the same way the Spurs did DeRozan.

The Spurs didn't "get" much of anything for DeRozan. They got paid to take a bunch of expiring contracts. They had leverage because Chicago needed them to agree to a trade and to take the ballast. That ballast was an opportunity cost for the Spurs, who could have used the cap space to sign another player -- like many of us wanted them to do. The Suns might have similar leverage against some teams that are capped out and need to send out neutral or bad salary. They don't have that against the Spurs. The Spurs can just sign him and dare Phoenix to match. If the Suns do, then the Spurs move on either with other free agents or deals to take contracts in exchange for value. Unless Ayton is a high target and they let guys go while waiting, they don't lose anything by waiting it out. The Suns at that point has lost its best chance to get something for Ayton (provided they are trying to trade him). While they can trade him later, it's much more constrained for reasons I've mentioned earlier.

It behooves them to come to a equitable deal with the Spurs to get value and flexibility out of the deal. That's not going to be two lotto picks of value and cap space. That doesn't benefit the Spurs enough to not just give the offer sheet. Unless the Spurs use cap space to sign a Lavine but somehow can still offer enough salary to get Ayton while meeting the BYC conditions AND fitting Phoenix's budget, the Spurs aren't going to get anything from Phoenix worth giving more than some hush money. That's a first and a useful contract, not the ninth pick plus. It's not how S&T transactions work

[rjv]

for me, the litmus test on max players is a simple one: is the player someone that any team in the NBA would pay the max to without hesitation or is that player the missing piece for your team? for me, ayton is neither of these. so i'm not opposed to ayton coming to the spurs but i am opposed to the spurs offering the max to get him.

[TD 21]

Now, you just don't feel like engaging with the point. You can't simultaneously believe Ayton would want to sign with the Spurs and that no one wants to sign with the Spurs.

Again, not what I said. I said it's at least conceivable they could have a chance here (of course I don't know if he'd necessarily want to), which is unusual for a player of or above his caliber.

Even you don't think Ayton is top five at his position. He's not of any "caliber" besides being a high pick.

Uh, the 6 ahead of him are among the top 25ish players in the league. At 23, he's a cut below an All-Star. The likes of Van Vleet, Allen and Murray weren't even on the radar for it a year ago and they all just made it.

The league hasn't said they're cracking down. They have actually started. What you're proposing isn't clever. It's like a wife thinking of cheating on her husband to get pregnant and say it's his, but doing so when he's on a month-long vacation. It doesn't matter how much you "wink-wink". It doesn't matter how "realistic" you are about what really happens or whatever. It doesn't matter if you never tell the truth. It's extremely obvious you did something, and you're going to get caught. You can laugh as much as you want, but it's not the way it works. You didn't understand a simple issue with an article from a ty source, and now you can't keep defending it.

Whatever man; more technicalities. The bottom line is you seem to believe tampering has been curtailed because of the league cracking down (which was mostly done for PR because they don't want it to be so overt, not because they're naive enough to believe they can actually cut if off at the knees).

I understand just fine. You're just incapable of a discussion where you're not playing smartest guy in the room while condescending.

They don't have to get a better center. That's the least of their problems.

They have to get better players period. Ones that are stars or at least have the potential to be. Ayton has it, Poeltl doesn't.

The advanced stats don't account for the playoffs being about versatility. Ayton can punish switches, catch lobs, is dabbling with shooting 3s and play myriad p-n-r coverages defensively. Poeltl can't do any of those things.

Your premise is that the should make a huge move just to say they've made a move. We've talked a lot about our desires for the Spurs to be aggressive. I'm not against that idea at all. But Ayton isn't that. Trading Poeltl for 13, throwing a max offer sheet at Ayton and using the pick to move up and grab a guy you think is a star? Maybe. It wouldn't be my first goal, but it would be an interesting way to potentially gather a young core. Would I lock myself out of future improvement, remove almost all my flexibility and risk tampering charges for the "seventh-best" center in the league? No.

That's not my premise, that's your narrative.

They'd have plenty of flexibility because it can be derived from having quality assets on market value or team friendly contracts. We just saw that in the White trade.

Maybe you think this was a tough way to end the point, but it sound petulant. After they match that offer sheet, they no longer have the choice of whether Ayton is on their team after the deadline next year. It becomes their mutual choice. That's why the clock is basically on them this off-season. They don't want to get into a pissing match with a guy they're trying to move. Ask Philly how much that does for trade value.

Always got to be adversarial. Again, I realize that and there's different ways to solve it. Maybe Payne or Shamet have bounce back seasons and they dump some combination of one of them, Saric and draft capital, then get to Ayton next off season like the Hawks are supposedly about to Collins.

The Spurs didn't "get" much of anything for DeRozan. They got paid to take a bunch of expiring contracts. They had leverage because Chicago needed them to agree to a trade and to take the ballast. That ballast was an opportunity cost for the Spurs, who could have used the cap space to sign another player -- like many of us wanted them to do. The Suns might have similar leverage against some teams that are capped out and need to send out neutral or bad salary. They don't have that against the Spurs. The Spurs can just sign him and dare Phoenix to match. If the Suns do, then the Spurs move on either with other free agents or deals to take contracts in exchange for value. Unless Ayton is a high target and they let guys go while waiting, they don't lose anything by waiting it out. The Suns at that point has lost its best chance to get something for Ayton (provided they are trying to trade him). While they can trade him later, it's much more constrained for reasons I've mentioned earlier.

It behooves them to come to a equitable deal with the Spurs to get value and flexibility out of the deal. That's not going to be two lotto picks of value and cap space. That doesn't benefit the Spurs enough to not just give the offer sheet. Unless the Spurs use cap space to sign a Lavine but somehow can still offer enough salary to get Ayton while meeting the BYC conditions AND fitting Phoenix's budget, the Spurs aren't going to get anything from Phoenix worth giving more than some hush money. That's a first and a useful contract, not the ninth pick plus. It's not how S&T transactions work.

Again, not what I said. They damn sure did better than most of this board expected.

Still fixated on the specifics. I'm speaking more in general.

[Chinook]

Again, not what I said. I said it's at least conceivable they could have a chance here (of course I don't know if he'd necessarily want to), which is unusual for a player of or above his caliber.

It's not any more conceivable though. There's nothing about Ayton that makes him seem like he'd want to go to the Spurs. If players don't want to sign with SA, Ayton won't either. Or if you can fanfic Ayton's interest, we can fanfic anyone's interest.

Uh, the 6 ahead of him are among the top 25ish players in the league. At 23, he's a cut below an All-Star. The likes of Van Vleet, Allen and Murray weren't even on the radar for it a year ago and they all just made it.

He's at best the third-best center in his conference. He doesn't have a great path to being an All-Star even if he improves. Also, I wouldn't give up a ton if he got voted in the ASG. Despite trying to make it seem like the Spurs should feel blessed for even being mentioned here, they apparently can get All-Stars without selling the farm.

Whatever man; more technicalities. The bottom line is you seem to believe tampering has been curtailed because of the league cracking down (which was mostly done for PR because they don't want it to be so overt, not because they're naive enough to believe they can actually cut if off at the knees).

What you're suggesting is obvious tampering. It's literally only possible because the Spurs tamper. If you and I and dumb-ass Bleacher Report know that, do you think the NBA wouldn't? Moreover, do you think teams like Dallas, Milwaukee, Chicago and Sacramento wouldn't? That you think the owners wouldn't lobby the league to punish the Spurs just because "it happens all the time" when the team would be caught red-handed, I don't know what to tell you. I get that it wasn't something you considered the first time. That's not shade. But it should be really obvious now why it wouldn't work, and defending it now IS worthy of shade.

I understand just fine. You're just incapable of a discussion where you're not playing smartest guy in the room while condescending.

Stop whining. You spent multiple responses calling me naive and putting laughing emojis. It's ridiculously fragile to be complaining about condescension after doing that.

They have to get better players period.

I don't disagree. They can't chase "better players" for the sake of it though. They need a plan of what they want to do and then execute it. That means using their flexibility to the fullest and not burn it all bending over to the Suns. They have cap space and tradeable assets. They need to use those separately to add talent so they can add two players rather than one. Ayton and Murray aren't taking the Spurs anywhere. But the Spurs could end up with Murray, a max free agent, a max trade piece and a top-10 pick as their building blocks. That's SO MUCH better than just having Murray and Ayton. That's why they can't panic. They need a lot of help and need to be smart about how they get it.

They'd have plenty of flexibility because it can be derived from having quality assets on market value or team friendly contracts. We just saw that in the White trade.

No. If the Spurs were over the cap (like they're likely to be every summer after this one or the next at the latest), they won't get the same benefit from a White trade. We aren't talking about them having the 25th pick. We're talking about them having the cap space to not have to give away draft picks getting teams to do sign-and-trades while also having the moveable contracts to execute other deals. This is a very unique position they're in that they aren't likely to have again.

[TD 21]

It's not any more conceivable though. There's nothing about Ayton that makes him seem like he'd want to go to the Spurs. If players don't want to sign with SA, Ayton won't either. Or if you can fanfic Ayton's interest, we can fanfic anyone's interest.

It is because he's an RFA whose team won't let him go, so all the usual suspects are out (glamor markets, contenders and wannabe ones). Many don't even have the assets to spare and/or the need.

He's at best the third-best center in his conference. He doesn't have a great path to being an All-Star even if he improves. Also, I wouldn't give up a ton if he got voted in the ASG. Despite trying to make it seem like the Spurs should feel blessed for even being mentioned here, they apparently can get All-Stars without selling the farm.

Sure, but actually making it is not the point (outside of the perennials it usually comes down to cir stances); playing at that level is.

I fail to see how I'm making it seem how you describe. More narrative.

What you're suggesting is obvious tampering. It's literally only possible because the Spurs tamper. If you and I and dumb-ass Bleacher Report know that, do you think the NBA wouldn't? Moreover, do you think teams like Dallas, Milwaukee, Chicago and Sacramento wouldn't? That you think the owners wouldn't lobby the league to punish the Spurs just because "it happens all the time" when the team would be caught red-handed, I don't know what to tell you. I get that it wasn't something you considered the first time. That's not shade. But it should be really obvious now why it wouldn't work, and defending it now IS worthy of shade.

And? It was something I considered immediately, I just didn't realize you'd be naive enough to know it still and always will go on, it's just being smart about it.

For example, the two teams could have had executives discussing it during the combine over lunch or dinner, etc. somewhere, as well as his representation.

Stop whining. You spent multiple responses calling me naive and putting laughing emojis. It's ridiculously fragile to be complaining about condescension after doing that.

The difference is, I'm doing so in relation to something specific, you do so all the time.

I don't disagree. They can't chase "better players" for the sake of it though. They need a plan of what they want to do and then execute it. That means using their flexibility to the fullest and not burn it all bending over to the Suns. They have cap space and tradeable assets. They need to use those separately to add talent so they can add two players rather than one. Ayton and Murray aren't taking the Spurs anywhere. But the Spurs could end up with Murray, a max free agent, a max trade piece and a top-10 pick as their building blocks. That's SO MUCH better than just having Murray and Ayton. That's why they can't panic. They need a lot of help and need to be smart about how they get it.

You're so consumed with "winning" the debate that you're still caught up in the specifics. I'm way past that. I'm talking about pursuing Ayton period.

No. If the Spurs were over the cap (like they're likely to be every summer after this one or the next at the latest), they won't get the same benefit from a White trade. We aren't talking about them having the 25th pick. We're talking about them having the cap space to not have to give away draft picks getting teams to do sign-and-trades while also having the moveable contracts to execute other deals. This is a very unique position they're in that they aren't likely to have again.

Cap space is the most overrated thing in the NBA. It's only important insofar as you have a means to create it relatively painlessly and they'd have that. They'd also have the caliber of player who's probably the peak of what they'll be able to sign in the near future, only he'll be younger than whoever that'd be.

[duncan2150]

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.

[John B]

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.

Yup that would get him packing. I don’t watch as much Sun’s basketball, but why would not Monty get him the ball? And with Monty’s good refutation, one has to think it’s something wrong with DA. Was it match-up issue or laziness on the part of DA?

[duncan2150]

Yup that would get him packing. I don’t watch as much Sun’s basketball, but why would not Monty get him the ball? And with Monty’s good refutation, one has to think it’s something wrong with DA. Was it match-up issue or laziness on the part of DA?

Imo there are probably issues with DA behaviour but about pure basketball i think that the Suns just did not trust him so much. They defer too much to Booker wich is understandable but after that they feed him almost like old Paul or Bridges in some games. Even Payne get more touches per minutes.

He was really good without Booker vs the Pelicans for example with nearly 21 pts 10 reb 3 assists 1 block 70% shooting.

[SAGirl]

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.

I legit think the Spurs could get so much more out of him … future all star, higher potential than Lamarcus, plus young. He will be worth that deal in the right situation.

[CGD]

I’m getting the sinking feeling spurs are going to go after him.

[Dejounte]

If the GOAT PG isn’t getting him good looks/ getting him enough looks, how is he supposed to get that here again? Aren’t people saying we don’t have a natural passer on our team? And if that’s not it, then do we suddenly have a good coach in Pop (because according to folks, Monty doesn’t know what he’s doing with Ayton)? Which is it?

[KingKev]

Don’t want.

[Chinook]

It is because he's an RFA whose team won't let him go, so all the usual suspects are out (glamor markets, contenders and wannabe ones). Many don't even have the assets to spare and/or the need.

Trading for a guy and signing him are different things. The Spurs have the assets to trade for anyone that ends up on the market. The only difference with Ayton is that he has to agree to go to SA. If contract isn't the issue (because Phoenix will match), then you're requiring him to prefer to sign with the Spurs over other teams offering packages AND the Suns themselves. There's no way to get around the fact that you're suggesting both that Ayton would be open to playing with the Spurs and that free agents wouldn't want to play with the Spurs. If you were talking about overpaying and maxing an offer sheet, it would be different. Then Ayton would be choosing money over location. That's not the case here where you had the Spurs having to pay the Suns to get them not to max him or send him to another place what is willing to max him.

I fail to see how I'm making it seem how you describe. More narrative.

You're making it seem like the Spurs should shoot their wad for Ayton because he has the chance of playing at an All-Star level. They already acquired an All-Star through the draft. Maybe it's not that powerful of an argument to suggest the Spurs need to do whatever they can to get one of those guys and instead focus on adding multiple high-level players through more-efficient means.

And? It was something I considered immediately, I just didn't realize you'd be naive enough to know it still and always will go on, it's just being smart about it.

For example, the two teams could have had executives discussing it during the combine over lunch or dinner, etc. somewhere, as well as his representation.

No. What you're doing is the same as that wife saying, "I'll check into a hotel in another city under a fake name and have my side piece meet me there." The problem isn't people seeing you doing it. It's that the end result (in the example's case, the pregnancy dates not lining up and in our conversation, the Spurs and Suns trading a player drafted in this draft) shows something is wrong. You keep trying to be cute about it, showing little care for how front offices operate. The league isn't the boss of the teams; it's the employee of the teams. Rivals and teams that have been getting dinged for tampering in the past aren't going to let obvious things slide.

The difference is, I'm doing so in relation to something specific, you do so all the time.

I guess if you think you're ALWAYS doing so in relation to specific things, even when talking to other people, you have a point. Sounds more like you have zero self-awareness.

You're so consumed with "winning" the debate that you're still caught up in the specifics. I'm way past that. I'm talking about pursuing Ayton period.

How the team pursues players matters. It's very much an order-of-operations situation for them. Ayton can be more or less "worth it" depending on where he fits in that timeline. If the Spurs address their pressing needs through other means and have the cap space to toss a max offer sheet at Ayton, he may well be worth it. If the team has to choose between him and similar guys at other positions, it's a pretty easy pass. Poeltl is good enough, so if you're going to use flexibility and assets to make that exchange, you need to make sure it's the finishing piece.

Cap space is the most overrated thing in the NBA. It's only important insofar as you have a means to create it relatively painlessly and they'd have that. They'd also have the caliber of player who's probably the peak of what they'll be able to sign in the near future, only he'll be younger than whoever that'd be.

We agree that the NBA is a trading league rather than a signing league. This is because the teams are mostly over the cap all the team, though, not because cap space isn't valuable. The Spurs leveraged that cap space into two firsts and multiple seconds last year. Most teams are more than a contract dumping away from meaningful space. Trading White was basically salary-neutral for this summer, and the Spurs will likely to be either over the cap in 2023-2024 or near it. Creating real cap space "when you need it" requires other teams to have space or TE's, and those aren't cheap. The Spurs basically have two more firsts to trade due to having space. Those firsts may be player they use or assets they move, but they have them because they weren't full on contracts.

The question with Ayton isn't how old he is. He'd be signed for four years, and only those years matter. If the Spurs were going to sign a guy who was 30 for the same length of time, that's just as fine, if not better. , if that other player plays at a different position, it's not even a discussion. Ayton would very possibly be a worse deal than Gobert, who's a dicey contract despite being actualized into a high-impact player and not mostly just smoke like Ayton.

[BatManu20]

[John B]

It would be crazy not to get a crack at Ayton. He’s 23 and has tons of ceiling left. The kid barely started his career! Plus Spurs have had successes with 2 big men. If Spurs get lucky to have him, maybe draft Davis and Sochan/Eason however they pull it off. It will be a totally different young Spurs and should be contending for years. This is a no brainer.

I swear if summer league starts and none of these happen. Instead we draft Dieng at 9, Caleb and sign a has been vet, I’d go crazy

[TD 21]

There's no way to get around the fact that you're suggesting both that Ayton would be open to playing with the Spurs and that free agents wouldn't want to play with the Spurs.

As I've said, I believe he's about the apex of the caliber of player they could convince to sign here.

You're making it seem like the Spurs should shoot their wad for Ayton because he has the chance of playing at an All-Star level. They already acquired an All-Star through the draft. Maybe it's not that powerful of an argument to suggest the Spurs need to do whatever they can to get one of those guys and instead focus on adding multiple high-level players through more-efficient means.

I don't view it like that. Like I said, no matter the iteration of the trade, they'd still have all core youth, multiple 1sts in this draft, all picks going forward and only one bad contract (McDermott).

It's that the end result (in the example's case, the pregnancy dates not lining up and in our conversation, the Spurs and Suns trading a player drafted in this draft) shows something is wrong. You keep trying to be cute about it, showing little care for how front offices operate. The league isn't the boss of the teams; it's the employee of the teams. Rivals and teams that have been getting dinged for tampering in the past aren't going to let obvious things slide.

So, to be clear, you believe tampering has been curtailed?

By the way, trading a drafted player doesn't show anything and isn't unprecedented.

I guess if you think you're ALWAYS doing so in relation to specific things, even when talking to other people, you have a point. Sounds more like you have zero self-awareness.

That's an exaggeration and I know exactly how the usual suspects (including you) view me.

The difference is, I like to push people's buttons, you just have a constant axe to grind/chip on your shoulder (Napoleon complex?). Look back to the start of this for reference.

How the team pursues players matters. It's very much an order-of-operations situation for them. Ayton can be more or less "worth it" depending on where he fits in that timeline. If the Spurs address their pressing needs through other means and have the cap space to toss a max offer sheet at Ayton, he may well be worth it. If the team has to choose between him and similar guys at other positions, it's a pretty easy pass. Poeltl is good enough, so if you're going to use flexibility and assets to make that exchange, you need to make sure it's the finishing piece.

Again, I don't view it like that. I see it as follows: They've built up enough assets to where they can afford to expend some if they're adding a young core player. Of course, I'd rather that player be a big wing, but if that's not possible (without drastically overpaying), it shouldn't stop them from being aggressive.

I also don't can't about timing because you don't get to choose when impact players become available and attainable to your specific situation. When they're "ready" they might not have an opportunity like this.

We agree that the NBA is a trading league rather than a signing league. This is because the teams are mostly over the cap all the team, though, not because cap space isn't valuable. Trading White was basically salary-neutral for this summer, and the Spurs will likely to be either over the cap in 2023-2024 or near it.

The question with Ayton isn't how old he is. He'd be signed for four years, and only those years matter. If the Spurs were going to sign a guy who was 30 for the same length of time, that's just as fine, if not better. , if that other player plays at a different position, it's not even a discussion. Ayton would very possibly be a worse deal than Gobert, who's a dicey contract despite being actualized into a high-impact player and not mostly just smoke like Ayton.

I didn't say it wasn't valuable, I said it was overrated especially for an organization like this that isn't going to do a full scale re-build. Trading White shed long term salary, whether it opened up future cap space or not it got them markedly closer.

You're making the classic mistake that most of this board does. This organization's goal isn't to have the best long term odds of building a championship contender. If they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I wouldn't propose the majority of trades I do.

[duncan2150]

If the GOAT PG isn’t getting him good looks/ getting him enough looks, how is he supposed to get that here again? Aren’t people saying we don’t have a natural passer on our team? And if that’s not it, then do we suddenly have a good coach in Pop (because according to folks, Monty doesn’t know what he’s doing with Ayton)? Which is it?

I think you mix things up, you can have touches without a good passer... Ayton will shot more in a team like Detroit for example.

The suns just use him like a 3rd/4th option and i think they're wrong. It's just simple as that, no need to talk about PG, Monty , Pop or something else imo.

[tbdog]

Ayton on a rookie Max is fine. Trading for him to give him the max isn't.

The rules are this. If you offer ayton the max and he signs it, there isn't any compensation talks. Sun's either match or let him walk. So you have to agree on a sign and trade prior.

[John B]

Ayton on a rookie Max is fine. Trading for him to give him the max isn't.

The rules are this. If you offer ayton the max and he signs it, there isn't any compensation talks. Sun's either match or let him walk. So you have to agree on a sign and trade prior.

If you want him, you have to pay. The Suns are not going to just let him walk for nothing.

[ducks]

If you want him, you have to pay. The Suns are not going to just let him walk for nothing.

Robert is stupid