The Last of Us - HBO series

[spurraider21]

Well, they got to the right spot on the map being the college. And it looked like the people had bailed for some reason. I think it was just for comedy relief. I didn't really mind it.
Why the does Joel not have a beard by this point? Is he shaving every week?

no, i get why he did it. but that "you better point at the same spot" shtick was used... quite differently in the game.

[Joseph Kony]

they wasted too much time trying to make a backstory for the Hunters in KC and ended up rushing this episode imo. don't like the whole emo Joel thing they're doing either

[SpursforSix]

no, i get why he did it. but that "you better point at the same spot" shtick was used... quite differently in the game.

Ah...I never played the game so that reference is lost on me.

[spurraider21]

they wasted too much time trying to make a backstory for the Hunters in KC and ended up rushing this episode imo. don't like the whole emo Joel thing they're doing either

him going through gives a lot more justification to ask tommy to take over for him. one of the things that always felt a little out of place in the game, how eager he was to just ask tommy to take over when he seemed completely capable

but i agree the KC backstory took a lot of time and didnt have much payoff. no matter what they did, i couldnt seem to care at all for kathleen or her crew. 90% of her scenes it seemed like she was never in synch with that crew, she was always pushing them to expend resources they didnt want to in order to hunt down henry to satisfy her personal beef. seemed like they all thought she was over the edge. and then when she outright told bearded assistant guy that she doesnt give a , she just wants to capture henry, he kinda just said "we're all with you." so... ok? all those scenes when people were seemingly doubting her just didnt matter?

i do think henry/sam were well done, and they did need to give some sort of background about KC to explain why Henry was on the run or hiding, as opposed to just randomly being another refugee trying to escape from there. he also had to go through the moral exercise of sabotaging a resistance that he believed in (and backstabbing a leader that he basically worshipped) just to give medication to his little brother... and all that ending with him having to kill said brother. its just that kathleen and her people were never convincing characters

[SpursforSix]

him going through gives a lot more justification to ask tommy to take over for him. one of the things that always felt a little out of place in the game, how eager he was to just ask tommy to take over when he seemed completely capable

Again, I didn't play the game but when watching the show, it's obvious the girl's best chances to getting the Fireflies was with Tommy. Although it might not have played out much different.
Also, in the show, the Indians made it seem like it was going to be a tough journey to get to the college. When it was actually pretty easy.

[spurraider21]

Again, I didn't play the game but when watching the show, it's obvious the girl's best chances to getting the Fireflies was with Tommy. Although it might not have played out much different.

oh yeah, in the show its made very clear that joel is probably a s of his former self. allowing himself to get snuck up on requiring ellie to save him, allowing henry/sam to sneak up on them despite having laid out the glass traps. and then he started having his breating/anxiety issues as a result of those. it makes sense that Tommy would be the better option.

game joel didnt really have those issues. it was just a more bland "tommy knows the area better than me"... which while true, didnt hit nearly as hard

Also, in the show, the Indians made it seem like it was going to be a tough journey to get to the college. When it was actually pretty easy.

the indians were showing them how to get to the are in wyoming where tommy was last known to be. turned out the piles of bodies they were fearing were put out there by tommy's people as a deterrent for other people to try them.

it was tommy who told joel that the fireflies had been set up at the colorado university.

[Joseph Kony]

him going through gives a lot more justification to ask tommy to take over for him. one of the things that always felt a little out of place in the game, how eager he was to just ask tommy to take over when he seemed completely capable

idk about that. the game makes it pretty obvious why this is - he doesnt want to lose another "daughter," and he thinks Tommy will be able to protect her since he failed to protect Sarah. especially since this happens right after the mission with Henry where he basically sees the same thing happen to him. I dont think making him a sniveling crybaby all of a sudden made the reasoning better

[SpursforSix]

oh yeah, in the show its made very clear that joel is probably a s of his former self. allowing himself to get snuck up on requiring ellie to save him, allowing henry/sam to sneak up on them despite having laid out the glass traps. and then he started having his breating/anxiety issues as a result of those. it makes sense that Tommy would be the better option.

game joel didnt really have those issues. it was just a more bland "tommy knows the area better than me"... which while true, didnt hit nearly as hard


the indians were showing them how to get to the are in wyoming where tommy was last known to be. turned out the piles of bodies they were fearing were put out there by tommy's people as a deterrent for other people to try them.

it was tommy who told joel that the fireflies had been set up at the colorado university.

Got it. But after crossing death river, I'd at least they would have seen some bodies.

[spurraider21]

idk about that. the game makes it pretty obvious why this is - he doesnt want to lose another "daughter," and he thinks Tommy will be able to protect her since he failed to protect Sarah. especially since this happens right after the mission with Henry where he basically sees the same thing happen to him. I dont think making him a sniveling crybaby all of a sudden made the reasoning better

even if taken at face value, a guy getting emotional over fear of losing another daughter seems totally normal imo

[baseline bum]

him going through gives a lot more justification to ask tommy to take over for him. one of the things that always felt a little out of place in the game, how eager he was to just ask tommy to take over when he seemed completely capable

but i agree the KC backstory took a lot of time and didnt have much payoff. no matter what they did, i couldnt seem to care at all for kathleen or her crew. 90% of her scenes it seemed like she was never in synch with that crew, she was always pushing them to expend resources they didnt want to in order to hunt down henry to satisfy her personal beef. seemed like they all thought she was over the edge. and then when she outright told bearded assistant guy that she doesnt give a , she just wants to capture henry, he kinda just said "we're all with you." so... ok? all those scenes when people were seemingly doubting her just didnt matter?

i do think henry/sam were well done, and they did need to give some sort of background about KC to explain why Henry was on the run or hiding, as opposed to just randomly being another refugee trying to escape from there. he also had to go through the moral exercise of sabotaging a resistance that he believed in (and backstabbing a leader that he basically worshipped) just to give medication to his little brother... and all that ending with him having to kill said brother. its just that kathleen and her people were never convincing characters

I mean knowing what you know about the story I'm not sure how Kathleen and her actions seem that strange.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I mean knowing what you know about the story I'm not sure how Kathleen and her actions seem that strange.

A central theme of the show is the dichotomy of what people will do for both the protection of loved ones as well as what happens when they are killed without justice.

Her top enforcer spells out the latter when he says that she was the one that got them out from under the thumb of KC Phedra and that is why they follow her. The orgy of rape and violence that started the episode demonstrating that the current status quo was recent. No, it shouldn't be hard to fathom.

[Joseph Kony]

even if taken at face value, a guy getting emotional over fear of losing another daughter seems totally normal imo

and that emotion manifests by him wanting to dump her off on Tommy, not by turning into a sniveling wuss. i didn't say it wasnt normal or whatever, i personally just dont like the changes to joel's character. i always thought he was a giant asshole, and at the end of the first game I thought so even more so when he got Abby'd in the second game I was not really upset about it as it was basically justified. they are trying to make him more relatable and less of a psychotic asshole which is fine and dandy but personally, not my cup of tea

[spurraider21]

I mean knowing what you know about the story I'm not sure how Kathleen and her actions seem that strange.

its not that i didnt understand her motives. its that i didnt think her character was very compelling. i found it hard to care. i mean when she has that whole scene in that room and she talks about how her brother made her feel safe, etc. it was just very hard to care because they show her to be as ruthless as the fedra they were replacing.

i also get that beard guy told her that she ended up accomplishing her brothers goal of overthrowing fedra, and that is why they are with here. fine. but then why the multiple scenes of all of her people second guessing her and giving those weird looks when she was giving all the commands to search door to door, etc. they just made it seem like her grasp on those folk was tenuous at best and then beard guy just says nah its all good lets go

they handled it very differently with marlene in episode 1, when the fireflies were second guessing her tactics of hitting unimportant targets. and then they were second guessing why they were withdrawing from boston. and instead of a random "forget all that second guessing, we're with you"... at least marlene earned some trust when she told her 2nd in command exactly what was going on (showed the message about ellie), explained why they were hitting those specific targets to clear an escape path, etc. once she gave an explanation, the trust in her felt earned. i didnt get anything like that from kathleen

[baseline bum]

its not that i didnt understand her motives. its that i didnt think her character was very compelling. i found it hard to care. i mean when she has that whole scene in that room and she talks about how her brother made her feel safe, etc. it was just very hard to care because they show her to be as ruthless as the fedra they were replacing.

i also get that beard guy told her that she ended up accomplishing her brothers goal of overthrowing fedra, and that is why they are with here. fine. but then why the multiple scenes of all of her people second guessing her and giving those weird looks when she was giving all the commands to search door to door, etc. they just made it seem like her grasp on those folk was tenuous at best and then beard guy just says nah its all good lets go

they handled it very differently with marlene in episode 1, when the fireflies were second guessing her tactics of hitting unimportant targets. and then they were second guessing why they were withdrawing from boston. and instead of a random "forget all that second guessing, we're with you"... at least marlene earned some trust when she told her 2nd in command exactly what was going on (showed the message about ellie), explained why they were hitting those specific targets to clear an escape path, etc. once she gave an explanation, the trust in her felt earned. i didnt get anything like that from kathleen

You have played both games right?

[spurraider21]

You have played both games right?

nope, only the first

but my drawing a contrast between marlene and kathleen is just based on what ive seen in the show

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The difference is a population that had been under the thumb of a repressive regime for years and a self selecting resistance group made of disparate people deployed across a disparate area. thinking the fireflies are analogous to the citizenry of KC is ignorant.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

George Martin had a point about his willingness to kill off important characters to keep readers invested. I find I am not worried at all about Joel even given a gut wound.

[spurraider21]

The difference is a population that had been under the thumb of a repressive regime for years and a self selecting resistance group made of disparate people deployed across a disparate area. thinking the fireflies are analogous to the citizenry of KC is ignorant.

i was comparing contrasting marlene/kathleen as leaders, not the fireflies to the KC resistance. marlene wasnt above killing people and attacking even civilian areas to accomplish her goals. even her own people were asking wtf she is doing kidnapping and holding ellie captive against her will. this is not about the respective moral character of the two groups. i found kathleen's character to not be compelling nor did i find the blind trust of her followers to have been earned. marlene did better at that with much less screentime and background having been given

but yeah, if you want to get into the two groups, we can. KC was liberated from a particularly fascist/brutal faction of fedra. but what does that liberation look like to the viewer? not much. people being rounded up, hunted down, and killed. and they still have a weird system where they try to bait and ambush random travelers. now we didnt really see how the day to day life of the average person in KC and how it probably has improved from having been under fedra's boot. but from a viewers perspective, we dont get any of that. so the attempt to humanize kathleen and attempt to make her a sympathetic (yet flawed) figure, just falls flat imo. which sucks considering they invested a couple of episodes into that saga. the only good thing kathleen's sob story did for me as a viewer was give more depth to henry's character, which did work well

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i was comparing contrasting marlene/kathleen as leaders, not the fireflies to the KC resistance. marlene wasnt above killing people and attacking even civilian areas to accomplish her goals. even her own people were asking wtf she is doing kidnapping and holding ellie captive against her will. this is not about the respective moral character of the two groups. i found kathleen's character to not be compelling nor did i find the blind trust of her followers to have been earned. marlene did better at that with much less screentime and background having been given

but yeah, if you want to get into the two groups, we can. KC was liberated from a particularly fascist/brutal faction of fedra. but what does that liberation look like to the viewer? not much. people being rounded up, hunted down, and killed. and they still have a weird system where they try to bait and ambush random travelers. now we didnt really see how the day to day life of the average person in KC and how it probably has improved from having been under fedra's boot. but from a viewers perspective, we dont get any of that. so the attempt to humanize kathleen and attempt to make her a sympathetic (yet flawed) figure, just falls flat imo. which sucks considering they invested a couple of episodes into that saga. the only good thing kathleen's sob story did for me as a viewer was give more depth to henry's character, which did work well

you felt you were supposed to have sympathy for her? i didn't. that scene followed her ignoring an obvious threat, her straight up saying she is dishonoring her brothers wishes and was juxtaposed with her making everyone unsafe. IOW, she was a who lost her safe space so was bent on revenge at the expense of all else.

And I was speaking on how an oppressed people would look upon the leader that overthrew the oppressive regime as opposed to how a self selecting group of people from different locations would look upon their leader. AR-15 guy spells it out.

[spurraider21]

you felt you were supposed to have sympathy for her? i didn't. that scene followed her ignoring an obvious threat, her straight up saying she is dishonoring her brothers wishes and was juxtaposed with her making everyone unsafe. IOW, she was a who lost her safe space so was bent on revenge at the expense of all else.

and AR15 guy ended up saying "we dont care about all that. we are with you". it just seemed very easy after the scenes where she was clearly giving orders that they werent comfortable with

[FuzzyLumpkins]

and AR15 guy ended up saying "we dont care about all that. we are with you". it just seemed very easy after the scenes where she was clearly giving orders that they werent comfortable with

What he said after she said she had forsaken all of her brother's ideals was that he didn't overthrow Fedra but she did. I think you should rewatch it.

[Xevious]

and that emotion manifests by him wanting to dump her off on Tommy, not by turning into a sniveling wuss. i didn't say it wasnt normal or whatever, i personally just dont like the changes to joel's character. i always thought he was a giant asshole, and at the end of the first game I thought so even more so when he got Abby'd in the second game I was not really upset about it as it was basically justified. they are trying to make him more relatable and less of a psychotic asshole which is fine and dandy but personally, not my cup of tea

I get what you're saying, but I think with the exclusion of all the gameplay elements there are a lot of subtle details that are missed out. So they are being much more overt in showing Joel's feelings here, otherwise he may just come off as a just because.

At the end of the day it's just a different take on the character. They are also really playing up his age, physical limitations, and mental health issues following the death of Sarah. Hopefully that will make the final act more impactful when you see just how far he's willing to go.

[Xevious]

i was comparing contrasting marlene/kathleen as leaders, not the fireflies to the KC resistance. marlene wasnt above killing people and attacking even civilian areas to accomplish her goals. even her own people were asking wtf she is doing kidnapping and holding ellie captive against her will. this is not about the respective moral character of the two groups. i found kathleen's character to not be compelling nor did i find the blind trust of her followers to have been earned. marlene did better at that with much less screentime and background having been given

but yeah, if you want to get into the two groups, we can. KC was liberated from a particularly fascist/brutal faction of fedra. but what does that liberation look like to the viewer? not much. people being rounded up, hunted down, and killed. and they still have a weird system where they try to bait and ambush random travelers. now we didnt really see how the day to day life of the average person in KC and how it probably has improved from having been under fedra's boot. but from a viewers perspective, we dont get any of that. so the attempt to humanize kathleen and attempt to make her a sympathetic (yet flawed) figure, just falls flat imo. which sucks considering they invested a couple of episodes into that saga. the only good thing kathleen's sob story did for me as a viewer was give more depth to henry's character, which did work well

You bring up a good point. The ambushing of travelers thing comes off as really odd considering the KC citizens literally just won their freedom 10 or 11 days prior. It's never really revealed, but you get the impression in the game that the Pittsburgh QZ has been gone for years, and this has been one way the hunters have survived, by killing and stealing from trespassers.

[spurraider21]

What he said after she said she had forsaken all of her brother's ideals was that he didn't overthrow Fedra but she did. I think you should rewatch it.

ive watched every episode twice save for the one that just came out yesterday.

im not getting into a for tat over exactly what lines came when. that whole chat more or less concluded "we're with you" or the general message that nobody is having second thoughts/doubts about her leadership, which flew in the face of some previous scenes, and right after a conversation between her and AR15 guy where she basically said nothing redeemable about her decision making

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ive watched every episode twice save for the one that just came out yesterday.

im not getting into a for tat over exactly what lines came when. that whole chat more or less concluded "we're with you" or the general message that nobody is having second thoughts/doubts about her leadership, which flew in the face of some previous scenes, and right after a conversation between her and AR15 guy where she basically said nothing redeemable about her decision making

you were demonstrably wrong about what he said. I am arguing your proposition not for tat, Crayola.

And it is amusing you think that was an attempt to humanize her. I guess you think face time does that in and of itself. That scene ends with he ting on her brother's legacy.