2023-2024 roster : who is a keeper, who is gone ?

[rascal]

Wait, what? you want to trade: Keldon Johnson PLUS Chicago's pick (potentially good) PLUS (unprotected) Atlata's pick for a late lottery pick this year? I'm reading that right? To target whom? Honestly I wouldn't trade Keldon alone for such a pick, maybe one of the 2 picks (but not both) plus a few seconds at most... not many guys I'd love in that range.

Hold on to Atlanta's unprotected picks. Those are gold. Those Atlanta picks are the ones I would least look to trade.

[JPB]

Way too soon. Spend your assets prematurely and 4 years down the road you're at risk of finding yourself where Dallas is now. IMO if we get Wemby then we should continue to build organically, developing the young talent, and taking advantage of the opportunities that may present themselves. In short, not more tanking but not forcing the issue either, kind of like where Indiana and Utah are right now, and trending up from that point on. That's the optimal scenario if we land Wemby, IMO.

Maybe usually (and not totally sure Utah or Indiana will contend anytime soon) but Wemby changes everything if you ask me. Special player, special decisions... Can you afford, on the court, in the crowd, in the media, in the business, in Victor's mind... to cruise your way back to relevancy the old daddy's way, when you have a potential all time great with so many expectations (starting by his)?

And I'm not talking about emptying the pick chest, but with young players + a few picks you can get one or two quality vets to lead the locker room and show the kids how to win. Spurs have 12 FRPs picks and 19 SRs in the next seven years, so you can bite a bit in the cake and still have ressources for the future. It was "fun" and all to rave at Mamu or Champagnie exploits durig that tanking year but you can't (I can't anyway) go decently wiht the same roster next year, specially with Wemby in. Give Victor a decent team already, he deserves one considering what his mere presence will bring to your team. Not sure he would be OK to run the treadmill for his first 2-3 years in the NBA with all the Barlows of the word, with the risk to lose him one or two year later. The guy is the ultimate compe or.

[mo7888]

Wait, what? you want to trade: Keldon Johnson PLUS Chicago's pick (potentially good) PLUS (unprotected) Atlata's pick for a late lottery pick this year? I'm reading that right? To target whom? Honestly I wouldn't trade Keldon alone for such a pick, maybe one of the 2 picks (but not both) plus a few seconds at most... not many guys I'd love in that range.

Yep... I love this draft, but there's no way I'm including that ATL unprotected 1st in a trade

[EricB]

Wait, what? you want to trade: Keldon Johnson PLUS Chicago's pick (potentially good) PLUS (unprotected) Atlata's pick for a late lottery pick this year? I'm reading that right? To target whom? Honestly I wouldn't trade Keldon alone for such a pick, maybe one of the 2 picks (but not both) plus a few seconds at most... not many guys I'd love in that range.

depends on who’s available. The bulls pick will not be that great, it’s way more of a wild card than the hawks picks.

[EricB]

Way too soon. Spend your assets prematurely and 4 years down the road you're at risk of finding yourself where Dallas is now. IMO if we get Wemby then we should continue to build organically, developing the young talent, and taking advantage of the opportunities that may present themselves. In short, not more tanking but not forcing the issue either, kind of like where Indiana and Utah are right now, and trending up from that point on. That's the optimal scenario if we land Wemby, IMO.

If this guy by some miracle comes to SA and he’s a generational talent, then you don’t Cavaliers 2003-2004 him.

[exstatic]

If this guy by some miracle comes to SA and he’s a generational talent, then you don’t Cavaliers 2003-2004 him.

I think you need to see him play for a year, and determine what your shopping list is.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hold on to Atlanta's unprotected picks. Those are gold. Those Atlanta picks are the ones I would least look to trade.

This. Those should be off the board.

That said, if somehow someone willing to give up a top 5 pick this year for one of those, I'd listen. But for a late lotto? no.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Way too soon. Spend your assets prematurely and 4 years down the road you're at risk of finding yourself where Dallas is now. IMO if we get Wemby then we should continue to build organically, developing the young talent, and taking advantage of the opportunities that may present themselves. In short, not more tanking but not forcing the issue either, kind of like where Indiana and Utah are right now, and trending up from that point on. That's the optimal scenario if we land Wemby, IMO.

I fully agree. Getting Wemby isn't a pipedream, but its only a 14% possibility. So at the risk of counting chickens before hatching, lets assume we get Wemby..then the template to follow is that of OKC with Durant, Westbrook and Harden and how they grew into a powerhouse based on talent.

I do feel that the Wemby-Sochan-Keldon-Devin-Collins-Trae-Malaki core has the potential of threatening to be in the play-in next year if the youngsters continue to trust the improvement process. They will also be in the similar age group bracket (except for a slightly older Collins). By adding a couple of veterans to this core, the play-in zone isn't going to be too much of a reach. Besides there are two factors to allow the Spurs to avoid outright tanking in 2023-24 - one, the lack of high end talent in the top half of the 2024 lottery and two, they have insurance in a top 6 protected pick coming from Toronto and a lottery protected pick coming from Charlotte, besides their own.

By allowing this core to grow organically and compete, the Spurs will ease the process of getting back to contention, which, I think will likely become less difficult as the core of other contenders become older (the Lakers, the Bucks, the Warriors and the Clippers in particular [not in order]).

The Spurs will be in a pickle only if they don't land Wemby. And if Scoot or the Thompson twins dont pan out to be star-like talent, they would have to extend The Process for another year or two and hope for the best.

[JPB]

I fully agree. Getting Wemby isn't a pipedream, but its only a 14% possibility. So at the risk of counting chickens before hatching, lets assume we get Wemby.then the template to follow is that of OKC with Durant, Westbrook and Harden and how grew into a powerhouse based on talent.

Getting Wemby would already be fantastic but you won't get Harden and Westbrook through the next drafts and you don't have them in your current roster. That Westbrook/Harden/Durant thing was totally exceptional. So you'll spend and waste three years of Wemby in mediocrity with no guarantees the following drafts will be that productive, betting on organic growth whose ceiling is maybe play in, first round exit team... Let's not overestimate out guys, Keldon, Vassel, even Sochan are nice complementary, second banana players but they're no real top stars, and you need 2 or 3 of them to contend.

The current roster + Wemby isn't even close to contend over time. You replace Wemby by Luka and you're basically Dallas as they are now. Now add a couple of talented vets to Wemby next year to help the youngsters take the next step, within organic growth, and that's another story. You can preserve organic growth all the while improving the team vith trades, that's even better. Why wait? Because it's supposed to be a multi year, meticulous plan? It is supposed to be the best way you can improve and contend. And with Wemby... Why wait? You already have the franchise player but you're not sure you'll alway have him. Tim almost left for Orlando and Wemby will go wherever he's sure he can win. Show him you're serious about it now and try to build a team who WILL be more and more compe ive within his first 3 years instead of making him wait 3 years before you really start to move because he might not care anymore...

[Ariel]

The Spurs don't have all stars in their roster... YET. Sochan, Branham, Vassell very well can become all stars in 2-3 years. Also the Spurs should get good picks in the next few years, whether their own or others (Toronto, Atlanta, Chicago, etc). I sincerely don't think this sense of urgency to contend from day 1 is coming from Wemby himself, but from third parties expectations, and (even if intentions are good) they may be more harmful than helpful.
If you build a team around him and overpay for veterans, the pressure for him to perform is immediate, and that may not bode well for his adaptation process or his body at all. That may also not yield the desired result for all the other youngsters on the team. The no. 1 thing you need to do if you get Wemby is develop him and your team right, and that is more aligned with managing expectations, his own and the rest. Failing to do so also entails a significant cost. You don't burn out your franchise prospect because of external pressure or anxiety.
Like I said, I'd call off the hard tanking phase and try to build a real team organically, probably go for some free agents with upside (Jalen McDaniels?), and if an opportunity comes our way to trade for an interesting player at a position of need (say PG) they sure, I'd entertain it as long as it's in the long term benefit. But if Wemby or his entourage start making the demands implied in your post before he's even steps foot in the NBA, then that spells doom eventually. We've had enough of that to go around the last time we had a star and his entourage try to call the shots.

[Ariel]

depends on who’s available. The bulls pick will not be that great, it’s way more of a wild card than the hawks picks.

That package (young player with upside + 1 unprotected pick + 1 reasonably protected pick with upside) is borderline all star like. Who in Christ's name can be available in the late lottery to warrant that price tag? I don't think even Scoot has proven he's worth that much.

[exstatic]

That package (young player with upside + 1 unprotected pick + 1 reasonably protected pick with upside) is borderline all star like. Who in Christ's name can be available in the late lottery to warrant that price tag? I don't think even Scoot has proven he's worth that much.

I don't think there is anyone with a sure shot at being as good as Keldon in that range, let alone including ANY picks.

[wildbill2u]

I keep hearing about adding some "talented vets" around Wemby if we get him. Great idea. Name some players who are available, fit into the budget, and actually might want to come to SA voluntarily as free agents. Or name some "talented vets" who we could trade for with whatever means who have All-star quality. You can't win a championship in this league any more with the typical vets that become available. Sure you can pick up a rotational player who might be on the cusp of becoming better to elevate himself to starting or something, but a full fledged All Star forward or guard? Fuhgeddabou .

[exstatic]

I keep hearing about adding some "talented vets" around Wemby if we get him. Great idea. Name some players who are available, fit into the budget, and actually might want to come to SA voluntarily as free agents. Or name some "talented vets" who we could trade for with whatever means who have All-star quality. You can't win a championship in this league any more with the typical vets that become available. Sure you can pick up a rotational player who might be on the cusp of becoming better to elevate himself to starting or something, but a full fledged All Star forward or guard? Fuhgeddabou .

If said player becomes available, they're someone like Simmons or Kyrie, with more baggage than O'Hare airport.

[Mr. Body]

This. Those should be off the board.

That said, if somehow someone willing to give up a top 5 pick this year for one of those, I'd listen. But for a late lotto? no.

Why would you want another top 5 pick in this draft? Dumb. Keep those picks for later.

[Ariel]

I'm sure the Spurs have the assets to trade for a Dame like star, overpay for a Harden, Kyrie, Van Vleet or Draymond. Those should be realistic options, at a significant cost. For what? a one in a hundred, 2 year window? And then you're f*cked, the demands get worse and you have to sell low on whatever you have left? Haven't we seen that scenario play out time and again, invariably ending in disaster? If that were the case (I'm sure it isn't), I'd rather not get Wemby at all, and pick someone who fit into THE ORGANIZATION'S timeline and plans.

[stnick2261]

the biggest problem with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili is that once they were having the top record, they had the worst draft picks each year. If we get Wemby, I'd rather trade our own future picks and keep other team's future picks.

[Ariel]

the biggest problem with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili is that once they were having the top record, they had the worst draft picks each year. If we get Wemby, I'd rather trade our own future picks and keep other team's future picks.

'24 or '25 should be lottery picks as well, even if not high lottery. Plus '25 is supposedly a good draft, I'd rather keep that pick. Also '26 and '28 picks come attached with swap rights, so those are more valuable and shouldn't be traded. '27, '29 or '30 (beginning draft night) could be traded, but ridding yourself of picks that far into the future is always a risk.
Because of that, barring some incredible opportunity (Luka like) the one pick I'd move right now is Charlotte's, because it should convey at a 15-20 range if at all, and only if there's a good chance of taking a bird in hand now to move up the draft or to catch someone who fell outside the lottery (say a Keyonte George or Rayan Rupert). No need to rush or panic, just be on the lookout and take advantage of opportunities.

[JPB]

The Spurs don't have all stars in their roster... YET. Sochan, Branham, Vassell very well can become all stars in 2-3 years. Also the Spurs should get good picks in the next few years, whether their own or others (Toronto, Atlanta, Chicago, etc). I sincerely don't think this sense of urgency to contend from day 1 is coming from Wemby himself, but from third parties expectations, and (even if intentions are good) they may be more harmful than helpful.
If you build a team around him and overpay for veterans, the pressure for him to perform is immediate, and that may not bode well for his adaptation process or his body at all. That may also not yield the desired result for all the other youngsters on the team. The no. 1 thing you need to do if you get Wemby is develop him and your team right, and that is more aligned with managing expectations, his own and the rest. Failing to do so also entails a significant cost. You don't burn out your franchise prospect because of external pressure or anxiety.
Like I said, I'd call off the hard tanking phase and try to build a real team organically, probably go for some free agents with upside (Jalen McDaniels?), and if an opportunity comes our way to trade for an interesting player at a position of need (say PG) they sure, I'd entertain it as long as it's in the long term benefit. But if Wemby or his entourage start making the demands implied in your post before he's even steps foot in the NBA, then that spells doom eventually. We've had enough of that to go around the last time we had a star and his entourage try to call the shots.

Yes precisely, spurs don't have all stars in thei roster and we have no idea if Sochan , Branham or Keldon will actually become AS, and if they do it will be fringe all star, not first banana all star. Same for the picks, we don't know what players they'll bring. And it's not about contending from day 1, but building from day 1 the bases of a team who will be compe ive in 3 years with the core of the roster + upgrading every year. Because again, the current roster + Wemby isn't a very good team in 3 years. i don't wanna see the spurs becoming OKC or HOU by keeping on adding young guys to the current one in the next 3 years. It's not about impatience vs. wisdom, it's about being pragmatical and rational. Waiting will give no guarantee of success, specially if you know these young guys are not ship' material.

If you get Wemby, try to find your iden y from day 1. Don't semi tank for 2 or 3 years to ultimately find yourself un mediocrty. Quality FAs and opportunities are rare, you got some cap, you got a bunch of picks, if you get Wemby use some of that to attract whatever good star is available and wanna play with Wemby. Waiting won't bring better results, and probably worth if you ask me. I like the guys, but personnally I'm not in for another 2 or 3 years of Barlow, Champagnie, Bassey half of the game on the floor. A contending team is Tim/Manu/TP + elite role players (Bruce, Horry, Tiago, Boris)... It's not Wemby/Keldon/Vassel + Mamu, Wesley, Champagnie.

[JPB]

I keep hearing about adding some "talented vets" around Wemby if we get him. Great idea. Name some players who are available, fit into the budget, and actually might want to come to SA voluntarily as free agents. Or name some "talented vets" who we could trade for with whatever means who have All-star quality. You can't win a championship in this league any more with the typical vets that become available. Sure you can pick up a rotational player who might be on the cusp of becoming better to elevate himself to starting or something, but a full fledged All Star forward or guard? Fuhgeddabou .

Ever heard about trading? you know with the picks and assets you have, whcih is kinda the whole point.

[stnick2261]

'24 or '25 should be lottery picks as well, even if not high lottery. Plus '25 is supposedly a good draft, I'd rather keep that pick. Also '26 and '28 picks come attached with swap rights, so those are more valuable and shouldn't be traded. '27, '29 or '30 (beginning draft night) could be traded, but ridding yourself of picks that far into the future is always a risk.
Because of that, barring some incredible opportunity (Luka like) the one pick I'd move right now is Charlotte's, because it should convey at a 15-20 range if at all, and only if there's a good chance of taking a bird in hand now to move up the draft or to catch someone who fell outside the lottery (say a Keyonte George or Rayan Rupert). No need to rush or panic, just be on the lookout and take advantage of opportunities.

Yeah, I'm not advocating for us to actually trade our picks. Just saying that once we are good, we will be happy having other team's picks so we don't want to trade those away. And obviously pick swaps would be included as "other team's picks".

[Ariel]

The model you're proposing has been tried again and again, almost invariably with horrible results: Brooklyn -twice, first with KG & Pierce, then KD, Kyrie & Harden-, NY -multiple times, with Marbury, Carmelo, Amare, etc.-, Clippers -had to give up SGA + 5 picks for PG13-, Houston -trading for Chris Paul, then Westbrook, then Wall ending up in a buyout-Dallas with Kyrie, Chicago -got Vucevic at the expense of Wendell Carter & 2 picks one of which turned into Franz Wagner and the other is a lottery pick this year-, now Phoenix -early returns don't look promising to me, I'd rather have Mikhal Bridges let alone Cam Johnson plus all those picks-, and Minnesota (what they gave up to get Gobert was probably the worst trade in NBA history). In the past 3 decades, most champions (Spurs, Golden State, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc) grew up organically via draft & free agent signings, and the few exceptions (Miami, Lakers, Cleveland) were built around free agent signings and maybe one trade (Shaq to Miami, Gasol to Lakers, Kevin Love to Cleveland) that complemented an already ready to contend foundation.
The only successful teams centered around trades were Toronto in '19 (lasted a season) and most notably Boston in '08 (got 2 major pieces in KG and Ray Allen).
Evidence is overall overwhelmingly AGAINST trading for established star veterans, because they are usually targeted by teams with little leverage that are taken advantage of. I dpn't see what's the hurry to contend right now, no team Wemby goes to will afford him that opportunity right away, Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State, Phoenix, Philadelphia, those teams are not on the menu, and if you think the dysfunctional Rockets or piss poor constructed Pistons (Duren + Wiseman + Bagley + Isiah Stewart... + Wemby? WTF) will give him that, you're fooling yourself. I honestly don't think that path is the best for Wemby or the Spurs. Typically every rookie holds maximum leverage at the 6th year since drafted (post rookie extension, which they all take), and THAT'S when the Spurs need to be at their strongest. Dallas with Luka is exactly what we need to avoid.

[Ariel]

Yeah, I'm not advocating for us to actually trade our picks. Just saying that once we are good, we will be happy having other team's picks so we don't want to trade those away. And obviously pick swaps would be included as "other team's picks".

You can't trade swap rights, you can only trade your picks that have those rights attached. At most you can add a protection to the pick, but those 2 are not separate en ies.

[stnick2261]

You can't trade swap rights, you can only trade your picks that have those rights attached. At most you can add a protection to the pick, but those 2 are not separate en ies.

wow, you are really not understanding. I literally said I wasn't advocating for us to actually trade our picks..... just that it's better for us to keep other teams picks. I never said anything about trading pick swaps. A pick swap is already keeping the better of 2 team's picks.

[Ariel]

wow, you are really not understanding. I literally said I wasn't advocating for us to actually trade our picks..... just that it's better for us to keep other teams picks. I never said anything about trading pick swaps. A pick swap is already keeping the better of 2 team's picks.

It's you who doesn't understand what either of us is saying. You stated "obviously pick swaps would be included as "other team's picks"". I'm pointing out why those 2 (swaps and picks) are very different in nature when it comes to trading. So if that's not what you meant, then your quote came out wrong.