2023-2024 roster : who is a keeper, who is gone ?

[scott]

This. Those should be off the board.

That said, if somehow someone willing to give up a top 5 pick this year for one of those, I'd listen. But for a late lotto? no.

Are the Spurs allowed to trade the unprotected ATL picks with Protections that we add?

I'd definitely be interested in moving those ATL picks if they were Lotto protected.

[stnick2261]

It's you who doesn't understand what either of us is saying. You stated "obviously pick swaps would be included as "other team's picks"". I'm pointing out why those 2 (swaps and picks) are very different in nature when it comes to trading. So if that's not what you meant, then your quote came out wrong.

Going off from what I said in my first post..... if we draft Wemby and start having good records... then the pick swap would be the "other team's pick" because it would be higher. I also was clarifying in that post that I wasn't advocating for trading any picks (just that I valued other team's picks more if we became a good team). I hope that clears up my side of things.

[jjspur]

By now the spurs are knee deep in meetings and discussions whether whether it its :
Plan A We get Wemby
Plan B We don't get Wemby but we get a pick in the 2 - 4 range
Plan C The lottery gods screw us and we get the 7th pick

Any of the above 3 are possible. All we truly know right now is that we don't which it will be. So lets sit back and chill, I have faith that the spurs know what the situations are and how to plan for it (hopefully). We all have our opinions right or wrong, but its their actual job to do it and try to get it right. I know its going to be a long month waiting for the draft lottery but in the mean time the cussing and discussing will continue.

[exstatic]

By now the spurs are knee deep in meetings and discussions whether whether it its :
Plan A We get Wemby
Plan B We don't get Wemby but we get a pick in the 2 - 4 range
Plan C The lottery gods screw us and we get the 7th pick

Any of the above 3 are possible. All we truly know right now is that we don't which it will be. So lets sit back and chill, I have faith that the spurs know what the situations are and how to plan for it (hopefully). We all have our opinions right or wrong, but its their actual job to do it and try to get it right. I know its going to be a long month waiting for the draft lottery but in the mean time the cussing and discussing will continue.

Exactly. Arguing over what to do when we get Wemby has an 86% chance to be meaningless.

[scott]

The Spurs don't have all stars in their roster... YET. Sochan, Branham, Vassell very well can become all stars in 2-3 years. Also the Spurs should get good picks in the next few years, whether their own or others (Toronto, Atlanta, Chicago, etc). I sincerely don't think this sense of urgency to contend from day 1 is coming from Wemby himself, but from third parties expectations, and (even if intentions are good) they may be more harmful than helpful.
If you build a team around him and overpay for veterans, the pressure for him to perform is immediate, and that may not bode well for his adaptation process or his body at all. That may also not yield the desired result for all the other youngsters on the team. The no. 1 thing you need to do if you get Wemby is develop him and your team right, and that is more aligned with managing expectations, his own and the rest. Failing to do so also entails a significant cost. You don't burn out your franchise prospect because of external pressure or anxiety.
Like I said, I'd call off the hard tanking phase and try to build a real team organically, probably go for some free agents with upside (Jalen McDaniels?), and if an opportunity comes our way to trade for an interesting player at a position of need (say PG) they sure, I'd entertain it as long as it's in the long term benefit. But if Wemby or his entourage start making the demands implied in your post before he's even steps foot in the NBA, then that spells doom eventually. We've had enough of that to go around the last time we had a star and his entourage try to call the shots.

No matter who we pick, he will have the most pressure on him since any rookie since David Robinson to turn this franchise around.

If we are picking #1 and pick Wemby, that pressure will intensify as Wemby will instantly join an elite fraternity with Tim Duncan and David Robinson as the only other members. While the San Antonio sports media is generally fairly subservient to Spurs Sports & Entertainment, this is still the winningest franchise in NBA history, and franchises like our SHOULD have high expectations where prolonged losing it not acceptable. We've missed the playoffs 4 straight years, matching the number of times we missed the playoffs in our entire franchise history prior to that (granted, there were times in that history where you could make the playoffs with a 31-51 record).

The two other members of the Spurs #1 draft pick fraternity have a few things in common: NBA MVPs, HOFers, multiple NBA Champs, etc. But they also both were part of the greatest single-season turnarounds in NBA history. For better or worse, fair or unfair, wise or unwise, that history will lead to some expectations of Wemby. I don't think ending up at the bottom of the standings again in Wemby's rookie year will be in his or the franchise's best interest as it will lead to premature (and frankly, ignorant) questions among fans and the media of whether Wemb belongs in this vaunted fraternity with Tim and David.

We shouldn't expect another NBA Record turnaround, but I do think Wemby's rookie year should at least result in the play-in. To facilitate that, I'm not looking for the Spurs to go out and acquire a second true superstar to play next to Wemby, heck I'm not even expecting the Spurs to make an acquisition like Terry mings? When the Spurs got him, TC was coming off an all-star/all NBA 3rd team season where he average 23/8, numbers he essentially replicated in San Antonio. That is probably asking for too much... and maybe we've already got that guy in Keldon or Devin? But I do think we should expect more than just drafting Wemby and shoe-horning him into the current lineup. The obvious spot to upgrade would be PG - is there a smaller kind of upgrade we could make that position this offseason?

The following seems like a core line up capable to making a play-in run without sacrificing our long term flexibility:

??/Tre
Devin/Bran
Sochan/Keldon
Wemby/Mamu
Collins/Bassey

[scott]

By now the spurs are knee deep in meetings and discussions whether whether it its :
Plan A We get Wemby
Plan B We don't get Wemby but we get a pick in the 2 - 4 range
Plan C The lottery gods screw us and we get the 7th pick

Any of the above 3 are possible. All we truly know right now is that we don't which it will be. So lets sit back and chill, I have faith that the spurs know what the situations are and how to plan for it (hopefully). We all have our opinions right or wrong, but its their actual job to do it and try to get it right. I know its going to be a long month waiting for the draft lottery but in the mean time the cussing and discussing will continue.

Of course, but this is a fan message board. We come here to discuss all sorts of possibilities, no matter how remote they are. That's what makes it fun. Should all the brainpower that went into discussing what to do when we draft Wemby go for naught, it will has still served the purpose of the message board: giving fans something to talk about and providing entertainment value.

[JPB]

Seems to me some people are too focused on future picks and doing it the "right way"... The goal isn't to get more young prospects but to get better and try to build a contender.. Do we want spurs to add another 2 or 3 mid to late lottrey picks to their current roster in the next 2-3 years if they get wemby or try to build a good, improving team from now on with their current assets and picks and try to contend in the next 3-4 years.

3 years from now, you'd have Wemby + the core of the current roster + those 2 or 3 picks (or even more since spurs have potentially a bunch) before only trying to add FAs or trade for "quality vets"? And theorically contend when exactly? 7 or 8 years later when everyone has enough experience? Why wait and no try to see if you can trade or attract some talent right now since you have what it takes, assuming you get Wemby? Initiate "race for seis" and build a quality roster from day 1 to create familiarity, complicity, and see what you should and can improve every year... The only reason to wait another 2-3 years would only be to get more prospects (prolly not top ones tho). Philly tanked forever with not even a final series to show for it so far (and that was with a bunch of high picks). So imagine with just mid/late lottery picks if spurs semi tank the next 2-3 years. there's absolutely no guarantees to me that way would give a better result than getting things going now.

[exstatic]

Seems to me some people are too focused on future picks and doing it the "right way"... The goal isn't to get more young prospects but to get better and try to build a contender.. Do we want spurs to add another 2 or 3 mid to late lottrey picks to their current roster in the next 2-3 years if they get wemby or try to build a good, improving team from now on with their current assets and picks and try to contend in the next 3-4 years.

3 years from now, you'd have Wemby + the core of the current roster + those 2 or 3 picks (or even more since spurs have potentially a bunch) before only trying to add FAs or trade for "quality vets"? And theorically contend when exactly? 7 or 8 years later when everyone has enough experience? Why wait and no try to see if you can trade or attract some talent right now since you have what it takes, assuming you get Wemby? Initiate "race for seis" and build a quality roster from day 1 to create familiarity, complicity, and see what you should and can improve every year... The only reason to wait another 2-3 years would only be to get more prospects (prolly not top ones tho). Philly tanked forever with not even a final series to show for it so far (and that was with a bunch of high picks). So imagine with just mid/late lottery picks if spurs semi tank the next 2-3 years. there's absolutely no guarantees to me that way would give a better result than getting things going now.

My position isn’t to wait three years, but to absolutely wait one.

[Mr. Body]

Seems to me some people are too focused on future picks and doing it the "right way"... The goal isn't to get more young prospects but to get better and try to build a contender.. Do we want spurs to add another 2 or 3 mid to late lottrey picks to their current roster in the next 2-3 years if they get wemby or try to build a good, improving team from now on with their current assets and picks and try to contend in the next 3-4 years.

3 years from now, you'd have Wemby + the core of the current roster + those 2 or 3 picks (or even more since spurs have potentially a bunch) before only trying to add FAs or trade for "quality vets"? And theorically contend when exactly? 7 or 8 years later when everyone has enough experience? Why wait and no try to see if you can trade or attract some talent right now since you have what it takes, assuming you get Wemby? Initiate "race for seis" and build a quality roster from day 1 to create familiarity, complicity, and see what you should and can improve every year... The only reason to wait another 2-3 years would only be to get more prospects (prolly not top ones tho). Philly tanked forever with not even a final series to show for it so far (and that was with a bunch of high picks). So imagine with just mid/late lottery picks if spurs semi tank the next 2-3 years. there's absolutely no guarantees to me that way would give a better result than getting things going now.

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Are you saying to trade future picks for current picks? How many rookies and sop res do you think a team can handle at once? How good do you think this draft actually is? If somehow the team gets Wembanyama, are you saying to burn the Atlanta picks to, like, pick up Kobe Bufkin and, like, I don't even know. GG Jackson? What exactly is that going to do for you?

Those picks aren't going to get you into the lottery. I guess you could super-load them, like give up two or three FRPs to get into the lotto, but that doesn't seem like a wise use of assets at all. If the team does get good, you want to have ways to improve despite weakening draft positions. Meanwhile, , we have like seven first and second year players as it is.

[scott]

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Are you saying to trade future picks for current picks? How many rookies and sop res do you think a team can handle at once? How good do you think this draft actually is? If somehow the team gets Wembanyama, are you saying to burn the Atlanta picks to, like, pick up Kobe Bufkin and, like, I don't even know. GG Jackson? What exactly is that going to do for you?

Those picks aren't going to get you into the lottery. I guess you could super-load them, like give up two or three FRPs to get into the lotto, but that doesn't seem like a wise use of assets at all. If the team does get good, you want to have ways to improve despite weakening draft positions. Meanwhile, , we have like seven first and second year players as it is.

I'd like to see us do the opposite and try to convert some of those future picks into proven, established players. Whether that is in Year 0 of Wembytime, Year+1 or Year+3, I don't think the way to go from play-in to contender is by adding more rookies into the pool (unless it is another very high lottery pick in Year+1). However, those extra draft picks definitely become valuable after you're a contender and they allow you to add relatively cheap talent to an already good team, assuming you the resources to properly develop them (and the Spurs have been historically good at this).

I'm thinking of the kind of move where you get a Derrick White caliber player for the #24 overall pick and a far out swap. It isn't apples to apples, because that pick that became Blake had a near 100% likelihood of conveying, but a pick like that might have some equivalence to the CHI pick (though that pick is looking more and more valuable, even though the risk of it not conveying is increasing too). The CHA pick is probably worth less than that BOS pick, and the TOR pick is certainly worth more. The CHI pick might be slightly higher value (but BOS also included additional assets). Can you get a Derrick White caliber player for the CHI pick + a few seconds?

[Mr. Body]

I'd like to see us do the opposite and try to convert some of those future picks into proven, established players. Whether that is in Year 0 of Wembytime, Year+1 or Year+3, I don't think the way to go from play-in to contender is by adding more rookies into the pool (unless it is another very high lottery pick in Year+1). However, those extra draft picks definitely become valuable after you're a contender and they allow you to add relatively cheap talent to an already good team, assuming you the resources to properly develop them (and the Spurs have been historically good at this).

I'm thinking of the kind of move where you get a Derrick White caliber player for the #24 overall pick and a far out swap. It isn't apples to apples, because that pick that became Blake had a near 100% likelihood of conveying, but a pick like that might have some equivalence to the CHI pick (though that pick is looking more and more valuable, even though the risk of it not conveying is increasing too). The CHA pick is probably worth less than that BOS pick, and the TOR pick is certainly worth more. The CHI pick might be slightly higher value (but BOS also included additional assets). Can you get a Derrick White caliber player for the CHI pick + a few seconds?

Yeah, I think you basically have two options for all those picks we have coming up, because we cannot possibly use all of them.

1. Trade for existing players
2. Flip some picks for future picks

And I suppose a third

3. Consolidate picks to move up

Trading for existing players has to be the hardest to do, and is where I think Presti/OKC is verging into. It's a totally different sensibility and skill set for a GM/FO. The other two I think will work to some degree -- teams always value current drafts over future drafts. The Spurs could take advantage in some regard and keep moving some of these down the line.

[offset formation]

I think if ppl go into the draft with this nugget of wisdom they'll be far less disappointed when something other than getting #1 happens, and that is this: The Spurs, now that we have the lower pick than Houston, have almost twice as great the odds to draft at #6 than we do at #1.

For me that really hamners home how the NBA is ing the poorest performing teams, and underscores the odds are just not good the even draft 1-3. In fact we have a 59.9% chance we draft 4-7.

So again I say the NBA.

[exstatic]

I'd like to see us do the opposite and try to convert some of those future picks into proven, established players. Whether that is in Year 0 of Wembytime, Year+1 or Year+3, I don't think the way to go from play-in to contender is by adding more rookies into the pool (unless it is another very high lottery pick in Year+1). However, those extra draft picks definitely become valuable after you're a contender and they allow you to add relatively cheap talent to an already good team, assuming you the resources to properly develop them (and the Spurs have been historically good at this).

I'm thinking of the kind of move where you get a Derrick White caliber player for the #24 overall pick and a far out swap. It isn't apples to apples, because that pick that became Blake had a near 100% likelihood of conveying, but a pick like that might have some equivalence to the CHI pick (though that pick is looking more and more valuable, even though the risk of it not conveying is increasing too). The CHA pick is probably worth less than that BOS pick, and the TOR pick is certainly worth more. The CHI pick might be slightly higher value (but BOS also included additional assets). Can you get a Derrick White caliber player for the CHI pick + a few seconds?

It’s funny, because if it conveys, it will almost certainly be better than the #26 we got from Boston. Picks 27-30 are usually conference powerhouses, and unless they draw Wemby, they won’t be that.

[EricB]

That package (young player with upside + 1 unprotected pick + 1 reasonably protected pick with upside) is borderline all star like. Who in Christ's name can be available in the late lottery to warrant that price tag? I don't think even Scoot has proven he's worth that much.

Keldon Johnson doesn’t have enough upside to warrant that so no.

[Ariel]

Keldon Johnson doesn’t have enough upside to warrant that so no.

What? Keldon Johnson is a 23 y.o. wing who just posted 22 PPG and shot over 36% from 3 for his career. Add his long term, good contract and he's definitely worth a lottery pick by himself. Go over a recent draft and tell me what percentage of picks in that range end up better than him, then come talk to me. Anyway, unless you can point a specific scenario to discuss, this whole "warchest for a late lottery pick" idea is abstract nonsense.

[exstatic]

What? Keldon Johnson is a 23 y.o. wing who just posted 22 PPG and shot over 36% from 3 for his career. Add his long term, good contract and he's definitely worth a lottery pick by himself. Go over a recent draft and tell me what percentage of picks in that range end up better than him, then come talk to me. Anyway, unless you can point a specific scenario to discuss, this whole "warchest for a late lottery pick" idea is abstract nonsense.

Agreed. Lottery picks ain't what they used to be, even high ones.

[Gagnrath]

The Spurs are not good and need almost a complete overhaul of the roster.

Keep

Collins, Mamu, Sochan, Branham and Wesley
Move on from all the others

Package Vassell and/or Johnson and draft picks to get future potential all stars at the wings.
The players I'd keep are not all star level players but good role players/backups.

Vassell and/or Johnson aren't either really, Vassell might become something of a start but it's pretty unlikely, and johnson just isn't he might have an outside shot of making a game as an alternate.

[EricB]

What? Keldon Johnson is a 23 y.o. wing who just posted 22 PPG and shot over 36% from 3 for his career. Add his long term, good contract and he's definitely worth a lottery pick by himself. Go over a recent draft and tell me what percentage of picks in that range end up better than him, then come talk to me. Anyway, unless you can point a specific scenario to discuss, this whole "warchest for a late lottery pick" idea is abstract nonsense.

keldon May improve incrementally, but he’s not athletic enough to improve where he becomes an all star, his defense is mediocre at best. Sell high.

[Biggems]

The problem with Edey is that the mismatches he creates aren’t as valuable as the mismatches created against him on defense.

The whole Shawn Bradley 2.0 in a more athletic era is the main reason I don't want him, even if he could be a strong interior defensive presence. I don't think he is agile enough to keep up with the horses in this league.

[Ariel]

keldon May improve incrementally, but he’s not athletic enough to improve where he becomes an all star, his defense is mediocre at best. Sell high.

But that's the point... packaging him along with 2 valuable picks for a late lottery pick now is NOT selling high... more like a fire sale if you ask me.

[JPB]

But that's the point... packaging him along with 2 valuable picks for a late lottery pick now is NOT selling high... more like a fire sale if you ask me.

Agreed. Keldon in himself has late lottery pick value. if you trade him + picks, that's for det quality vet.

[rascal]

Would anyone trade the Spurs pick before the lottery for Luka?

Dallas comes to you offering Luka in a trade before the lottery for the Spurs lottery pick not knowing where the pick lands. Do you take it?

[exstatic]

Would anyone trade the Spurs pick before the lottery for Luka?

Dallas comes to you offering Luka in a trade before the lottery for the Spurs lottery pick not knowing where the pick lands. Do you take it?

No, because Luka is a one way player. He's an offensive wizard, world class, but a defensive dud.

[rascal]

Agreed. Keldon in himself has late lottery pick value. if you trade him + picks, that's for det quality vet.

I would trade Keldon for a mid first round pick and draft a pg Jalen Hood-Shifino with that pick. Spurs need to make a deal to land JHS. Need to add a pg if they don't land Scoot with the 2nd pick.

Trade that Toronto pick to Utah for the 16th pick and draft him there.

[rascal]

No, because Luka is a one way player. He's an offensive wizard, world class, but a defensive dud.

So if the Spurs land 6th or 7th you'd rather have that pick than Luka?

I would take the gamble of keeping the pick to land Wemby. I'm not too high on Luka, couldn't even get Dallas into the playoffs.