The Point Guard Position

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

doesn't surprise anybody here

[scott]

1. Next draft looks pretty weak in PGs. Of course, no way of telling until games start. I don't want to count on getting the solution here.

What is the basis of this conclusion? I agree with the second part of your statement (no way of telling until games start), but PG actually seems like an area of depth in the early reads of next year's draft. Isaiah Collier, DJ Wagner, Cody Williams, Tyrese Proctor, and of course Bronny are some of the early names to watch at the PG position. Granted, all of them could go to the way of Nick Smith Jr or Emoni Bates after actually playing ball... but it doesn't appear that next year will be a weak PG class at this point...

[TD 21]

Garland is an unrealistic target.

I'm most intrigued by Bufkin out of the projected late lottery/teens PG/combo guards too and if he was available at 18 at the Heat were amendable to Lowry (either reroute or buyout) and it for 33, I'd definitely do it, but I'm doubtful on both counts.

Bailey reminds me of Joseph. I could see him being a candidate at 33.

[scott]

I simply took a criteria that you applied as a negative to Black, and applied it to Scoot. Has nothing to do with athleticism.

I know your stance on age, just as you know mine, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of FRPs are 18/19, not 21/22, so I think the NBA kind of sees it more my way. If you stick around in college until you're 21/22, you're stronger and more physically developed, but it doesn't make you a better star prospect, IMO. I don't see it being much different from the 20YO Thompsons playing against 15/16 YO kids.

IMO, the age topic is really interesting and I tend to fall into the camp that the NBA generally overrates youth, the same way all professional sports teams overrate unknowns over knowns. Derrick White fell to number 29 because of his age, but is easily one of the top 10 players from that draft. Teams want the youth because it provides a roll of the dice for higher upside, but if we pick players based on their expected median outcome rather than the highest end of their potential (which you brought up as a Dean philosophy the other day), then older players would be valued higher. These older players typically have a lower range of outcomes (meaning a lower ceiling but a higher floor, because more is known about them) but their median outcome is higher than a lot of younger players.

As an example of this, there will undoubtedly be teams who take some young exciting prospect in this draft who in 3 years will look back and realize they'd have been better off taking Jaime Jaquez, as an example.

[Mr. Body]

I just realized Kobe Bufkin reminds me of Devin Harris. Man, that guy killed us.

[sfernald]

I like the idea of taking back some salary to our cap space or filling in as a third team in a big trade to try to pick up a good point guard option.

Some ideas:

Help Pelicans trade Zion/Ingram to Charlotte/Portland. We could take Dyson Daniels and return like two low end future firsts and two seconds. That could be used to grease that trade and make it work. And we get a great potential point guard of the future. Strong defender and great connector piece.

if Charlotte does draft Scoot, it’s looking like they will be trying to get rid of Rozier. I don’t think he’d cost much, probably mostly cap space at this point and he would be a good vet leader point guard to bring in for a couple years. Actually a really decent player. Poor man’s Westbrook.

I could see them trying to acquire a recent lottery point guard prospect that maybe didn’t hit like expected. I like Jalen Suggs from Orlando or maybe Killian Hayes from the Pistons and think they would come pretty cheap. Both good defenders. Sometimes it’s just the situation or the organization and the Spurs player development team can perform miracles where other teams fail.

I like all of these cause they won’t cost us too much, so it’s a more low cost, high reward swing that say trying grab Amen or Black which might cost the farm.

[Degoat]

While I don’t really anticipate it happening the spurs trading Keldon would be pretty similar to them trading George Hill back in the day. Both guys are fan favorites and loved by the team but it might be necessary to take that next step. (We were trying to win back then tho)

[jesterbobman]

I'd avoid Sochan as a full time PG for a couple of reasons.
1. He isn't a full time advantage creator as a primary initiator. He's a good passer, works well as a connective passer but that's a connective role, like Lonzo (pre injuries). I think it's better for an offense to have more guys like that, and making him a PG full time limits that value as an off ball mover / cutter and connector.
2. Lack of off the dribble shooting to initiate actions and draw defenders.

Positions are more fluid now than they've been in the past, and you can get those skills from others in the lineup (Vassell as an off the dribble shooter is decent, Wemby will (hopefully) eventually be a big creator for others at a high level) but having more creation and off the bounce juice is good.

You can run a huge lineup with Sochan /Vassell / Keldon / Wemby / Collins, and that'd have some good elements (huge, help defense should be great), though off the dribble / movement shooting would be a limitation. I think you want more offensive flexibility, and to me, the easiest fit is replacing Keldon with a shooting PG in that lineup.

[Big Empty]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

[sfernald]

I'd avoid Sochan as a full time PG for a couple of reasons.
1. He isn't a full time advantage creator as a primary initiator. He's a good passer, works well as a connective passer but that's a connective role, like Lonzo (pre injuries). I think it's better for an offense to have more guys like that, and making him a PG full time limits that value as an off ball mover / cutter and connector.
2. Lack of off the dribble shooting to initiate actions and draw defenders.

Positions are more fluid now than they've been in the past, and you can get those skills from others in the lineup (Vassell as an off the dribble shooter is decent, Wemby will (hopefully) eventually be a big creator for others at a high level) but having more creation and off the bounce juice is good.

You can run a huge lineup with Sochan /Vassell / Keldon / Wemby / Collins, and that'd have some good elements (huge, help defense should be great), though off the dribble / movement shooting would be a limitation. I think you want more offensive flexibility, and to me, the easiest fit is replacing Keldon with a shooting PG in that lineup.

It depends on the offense you want to run, but I’d give Sochan at least a shot at it.

He’s such a naturally smart player that he might be able to develop as a Dramond level passer and hub. But maybe the best idea is to imitate the Nuggies and play Wemby as Jokic in the offense right from the beginning.

Isn’t that really where things are headed eventually anyway? Isn’t this his team and we want him to have the same type of usage as any MVP level player such as Joker or Lebron?

[sfernald]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

I do too actually. He’s been working out with Shai and he reminds me a lot of him. Some players don’t need the athleticism, they just have it. The 70% finishing at the rim gives that away to me.

[BacktoBasics]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

I don’t like him over Black but I agree he’s a more realistic target. Bufkin has been treading on mocks to go between 11-16

[Mr. Body]

If Washington has Wallace at 8 and Utah indeed takes Bilal at 9 then Black probably tumbles out of the top 10. Not sure about either of those. After around OKC at 12 it's sort of a free for all, hard to predict. You could see Bufkin out of the lottery and closer to where he was weeks ago.

[BacktoBasics]

If Washington has Wallace at 8 and Utah indeed takes Bilal at 9 then Black probably tumbles out of the top 10. Not sure about either of those. After around OKC at 12 it's sort of a free for all, hard to predict. You could see Bufkin out of the lottery and closer to where he was weeks ago.

If Black falls to 10 Spurs should have a pre draft deal in place. 10 should be affordable enough that we don’t need to part with our core. Unfortunately it would take a 3rd team because Dallas isn’t stockpiling picks and I don’t think it would be smart to trade Keldon at this point.

Collins would fit on Dallas roster. But obviously it would take considerably more. A couple of firsts could be moved for a player Dallas covets more.

I’d have no problem moving Collins and 2 firsts for Black at 10.

I don’t see Black falling to 10 though.

[jesterbobman]

It depends on the offense you want to run, but I’d give Sochan at least a shot at it.

He’s such a naturally smart player that he might be able to develop as a Dramond level passer and hub. But maybe the best idea is to imitate the Nuggies and play Wemby as Jokic in the offense right from the beginning.

Isn’t that really where things are headed eventually anyway? Isn’t this his team and we want him to have the same type of usage as any MVP level player such as Joker or Lebron?

I don't think Wemby is likely to be (probably ever) the passer that Jokic is. I think he'll be central, but have more of a mix of creator / finisher off other people's actions, rather than a pure central creator. I think you want to use Wemby's skills as an ELITE at the rim finisher off of other people creating. Sochan can be a hand off hub / and the Draymond connector, but Draymond is best as a Creator in a broken set / taking advantage of Steph's initial pressure. I think Sochan could be great at that Draymond role, though that still needs an initial creator to make it work. I don't think you want Wemby doing that as a heliocentric creator all of the time.

I think the Wemby model is closest to (I mean, still some distance, but closest) Giannis as a big primary / face up creator, who works really well with other creators so you can take advantage of finishing. I think that needs another smaller initiator so that there's a clearer size mismatch in a pick and roll and force the opposing team to shift focus either to Wemby (leaving an off the dribble shooter open ish) or let Wemby have a free ride to finish at the rim.

[spurraider21]

Yes, Bufkin or Jalen Hood-Shifino should be the targets at a lower cost.

Bufkin looks solid in all areas.

I like Hood-Shifino's game more than Black. Has better shooting mechanics and already is solid on hitting his mid range shot. Hood-Shifino looks far better on shooting off the dribble than Black. Hood-Shifino's defense is also not bad.

Black doesn't jump off the floor on his shot. This will play smaller than his height in the NBA. Black has a push shot(heaves it up) and doesn't have good form on it.

The Spurs need a pg who can at least hit mid range shots at a good rate.

agreed on the shooting mechanics. he'll get even better as he ages. i think black is a more physical defender than he is and i'd trust him more if he had to switch onto a wing. black also seems to process the game faster and is better at making the right read/pass while rarely being late to do so. hood-schifino flashes but is much less consistent.

other than scoot, basically all the top PG prospects in this draft look like solid complementary pieces that can play defense, which really is what the spurs should be looking for. whether it be Black/Wallace/Hood-Schifino/Bufkin. i havent watched much amari bailey but some guys here seem very high on him too, and he profiles similarly from what little ive seen

[SpursFan86]

https://twitter.com/ajohnsonnba/stat...RJS8_UemWCmgcA

Draft night shaping up to be very interesting…trying not to get my hopes up because I’m still skeptical the Spurs actually move up into the lottery, but damn the hype will be real this season if we end up landing a PG in the first round

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/ajohnsonnba/stat...RJS8_UemWCmgcA

Draft night shaping up to be very interesting…trying not to get my hopes up because I’m still skeptical the Spurs actually move up into the lottery, but damn the hype will be real this season if we end up landing a PG in the first round

unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

[DAF86]

As much as this forum loves to talk about his pg skills he’s not a full time pg. A change of pace or mismatch purposes that’s fine but he doesn’t have the archetype to hold the position for 40 minutes per game. Particularly lacks the handles and defensive speed.

I agree he shouldn't play PG on offense, on defense? I don't see why not. Don't get it twisted, Sochan has some nice skills on offense but if he really is gonna make a name for himself in this league, it will be on the defensive end first of foremost. Him guarding the other team's best player 1 through 4 ala Bowen, should be a requeriment for him.

[DAF86]

Wearing himself out chasing after SGA and Fox? Are you people serious?

He has switchability. That doesn't mean you want to stick him on foul-aggressive, fast guards all the time. He can't do it. You're going to wear him out. You're going to get him into foul trouble. He's not going to be able to consistently stay in front of them. On offense, his value is being faster than players his size. He's not an exceptional post-up guy, which is what you'd do if a guard switches onto him, and that's Wembanyama territory anyway. And then you take away his slashing ability against bigs.

Just, no. Why on earth would you think this could work?

Read above, him guarding opposing PGs, doesn't mean he would play PG on offense. In fact, I'm one of the most vocal posters in this forum against the "Sochan for PG" experiment.

Sochan will be a defense first guy, if there's a side of the floor where he should be spending most of his energy, it's on that end.

[BacktoBasics]

I agree he shouldn't play PG on offense, on defense? I don't see why not. Don't get it twisted, Sochan has some nice skills on offense but if he really is gonna make a name for himself in this league, it will be on the defensive end first of foremost. Him guarding the other team's best player 1 through 4 ala Bowen, should be a requeriment for him.

It'll happen no disagreement on that but the point above in response to you is a good point. There’s no reason to run out another PF alongside Sochan so he can chase around a pg all game. Sochan at pg is a pick and choose your moments. Not a permanent position.

[sfernald]

I don’t like him over Black but I agree he’s a more realistic target. Bufkin has been treading on mocks to go between 11-16

yeah.

11 Orlando - very little chance
12 Okc - decent chance, has been working out with SGA, seems like an OKC player
13 Raptors - doesn’t seem likely
14 New Orleans — ???
15 Atlanta — ???

id say after 13 it’s a total crapshoot. If you can get #13 from the Pelicans I think you have an excellent chance of snagging him tho.

[sfernald]

unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

I really hope we can find a salary dump deal. I could see something like Nets #21 and Nets #22 for taking Ben Simmons contract (2 years at roughly 30 mil). Then I could see trading those two picks to Dallas at #10 (Dallas needs more than can be filled in one draft pick). Then snag Black at #10 who I really think could be there, depending on how the dominos fall draft night. That’s the sneaky kind of I hope they are able to pull off.

[Mr. Body]

unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

Yeah, agree. I don't think any top 10 are available anyway except to high bidders and the Spurs will keep Keldon and definitely keep Collins.

There might be a way they can get the Warriors pick or one of Brooklyns for future capital (neither has a first or second next year, so give them one of each as basis). Then use that pick to move further up, but by then you're talking maybe two future firsts and some seconds to get your guy in the late lotto, if at all possible.

[spurraider21]

I really hope we can find a salary dump deal. I could see something like Nets #21 and Nets #22 for taking Ben Simmons contract (2 years at roughly 30 mil). Then I could see trading those two picks to Dallas at #10 (Dallas needs more than can be filled in one draft pick). Then snag Black at #10 who I really think could be there, depending on how the dominos fall draft night. That’s the sneaky kind of I hope they are able to pull off.

nets are going to eat simmons tbh

he's going to be way too difficult to move and they're not in the position to be giving away assets