Slotting The Spurs

[John B]

Victor can't play like a KD and show star efficiency, because he is slower and has a worse dribbling
And that's not to mention his shooting ability
He'll have to play inside a lot
In general, this whole topic with positions is meaningless
As Mowry said more than 10 years ago, there are no positions, there are about 15 roles in basketball, depending on the interpretation, their number may vary
Positions in general were introduced into the game for a simpler understanding of the principles of the game
There is a center, the tallest player, there is a physically developed forward who goes to push under the basket and is just a small-sized center, there is a more mobile forward who can play with the ball, a point guard and a second guard. And this was enough when basketball was two-point and everyone was on an equal footing with similar opportunities
But immediately after the sides adapted the three-point shot, all this lost any meaning, and the skill package came to the fore

Agree on the positionless as it comes to plays. Above is just what I think should be the general “positions” of the other starting line-up and why, plus Keldon the rational of Keldon coming off the bench. Again I have no 5 rings like Pop, so I trust what he’ll decide to maximize the potential of his players.

[TD 21]

I see so many people on here stuck with the archaic idea NEEDING a labeled PG or traditional PG.

The game has changed.

I think the Spurs are aware of this as well ( this is why they didn’t address adding a traditional PG.

Im ALL IN behind Sochan playing “ PG”, and it’s not necessarily wanting him to pound the air out of the basketball ball initiation offense majority of possessions.

That simply does not exist anymore in todays NBA with how the ball moves combined with the level of talent across every position. Not even Tre was THAT in the half court last year. He played mostly off the ball in the half court. He only averaged 1 more PnR opportunity a game than Keldon last season. The Spurs had a more collective approach.

At the end of the day, the best players will garner most opportunities or possessions to make plays by nature and common sense.

The reason behind why I prefer Sochan playing at the “PG” position is to unlock tremendous matchup edges on the perimeter on both ends of the floor

Of course, but you still need a primary initiator and Sochan isn't it. He's a connector a la Aaron Gordon. Any team with a pulse would press and trap the Spurs full court and duck multiple body lengths under him in p-n-r's.

Not only is he not a pull-up threat, but he's not explosive enough and doesn't possess a tight enough handle to beat them to the other side and get deep enough into the paint to draw help anyway.

They didn't address it because there's no urgency to yet.

Actually, the NBA is more heliocentric than ever.

He'd also likely struggle to negotiate picks and stay in front of jitterbug guards defensively.

Spacing is only a problem if Sochan hasn’t improved his shooting. I’m gonna bet he has tbh

Highly unlikely he has in marked fashion and even if he did, any configuration of the top 6-7 players is going to have difficulty spacing the floor.

No team has ever had a lob threat like Victor. Spacing may not end up being as big a deal if you can dribble into the space and throw it to the front of the rim when they challenge you.

Spacing is what opens up the lob.

[heyheymymy]

Going to disprove this myth through multiple posts.



i only went through a quarter of this video (first 12 minutes of this 50 min video) because I was trying to hurry, but here are the times Sochan wasn’t playing PF:

0:30 - Jalen Smith on Keldon, Tyrese on Sochan
3:52 - Aldama on Keldon, Dillon Brooks on Sochan
5:16 - Draymond on Keldon, Wiggins on Sochan
6:52 - Metu on KBD, Huerter on Sochan
7:23 - Marcus Morris on KBD, Reggie Jackson on Sochan
11:47 - Jabari Smith on KBD, Jalen Green on Sochan
12:21 - Jabari Smith on KBD, KPJ on Sochan

I’ll either find a different video or go through the rest of it later

It is tough dissecting highlight videos like this because a lot of the plays are fast breaks which clearly isnt representative of matchups. I didnt include those in my list obviously

Nice research and I appreciate the timestamps. I can see what you're saying and it's kinda compelling. Plus I agree with you that if Sochan is working on his three this offseason, which you'd think that would be a priority anyway, then it's a game changer and opens up the SF option more fully. And I'd say that his shot improved through the entire season last year.

To be fair I did say "Sochan seems best suited for PF although I do believe he can play SF, especially situationally.

But in most cases last year, Sochan seemed like a PF"

Because I did remember times last season where Sochan seemed to be playing non-PF roles, including SF. correct me if I'm wrong but I recall straight up playing Sochan at PG, so they were def trying different things at times.

Can't really tell in your video if some of those aren't defensive lapses or weird mismatch situations. I don't exactly recall that specific GSW game last season but while Wiggins is on Sochan, you've also got Curry sealing the baseline closest to KBD in the corner, plus Spurs lineup looks like

Vasell
Johnson
Sochan?
KBD
Poeltl

So not sure what is going on there, was there some foul trouble or players not available for that game or something? Can't figure that situation was ideal for either team and could've been a result of cir stance. I think some of these examples could be lapses, switches or opposing teams just trying different looks in search of an exploit or data. Victor sought out Kai Jones defensively some in that CHA game but it doesn't mean they ran him as a C. In the end, you've given me a new perspective and I'm viewing this less rigidly now. Great post.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spacing is only a problem if Sochan hasn’t improved his shooting. I’m gonna bet he has tbh

I don't think he is a consistent 35% 3-point shooter yet, although he should be shooting it better I agree. But also Wemby and Tre ain't good 3-point shooters either. You need a sniper who can shoot 3s at a high volume at that spot to offset that

[SpursFan86]

I feel like there’s this misconception that Keldon is a non-threat from deep. He obviously struggled last year, but I don’t think it’s that farfetched to say some of his struggles were the result of him being asked to shoulder far too much of the load offensively. He was clearly the #1 option and didn’t exactly have much of a supporting cast, especially considering the amount of time missed by the other halfway decent players like Vassell and Sochan.

The year before, Keldon shot 39% from 3 on 5 attempts per game (40% of his attempts). That’s really solid. It’s possible that was a fluke but I’m choosing to be an optimist and think that he’s at least a 36-37% type guy from deep which is plenty respectable.

Assuming that ends up being the case, a lineup of Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Wemby/Collins shouldn’t be bad from a spacing standpoint. And with guys like Graham/Branham (hoping his 3 point shooting this summer is legit)/McDermott we should have a decent amount of shooting off the bench too.

Don’t get me wrong: we could absolutely use more shooting on this roster. I’m just not sure it’ll be as bad as people here worry…but that’s admittedly banking on a few things going our way. If KJ really is a sub-35% guy, Victor struggles, Sochan still has no jumper, Branham struggles from 3, etc…then yeah it’ll be pretty rough

[spurraider21]

I feel like there’s this misconception that Keldon is a non-threat from deep. He obviously struggled last year, but I don’t think it’s that farfetched to say some of his struggles were the result of him being asked to shoulder far too much of the load offensively. He was clearly the #1 option and didn’t exactly have much of a supporting cast, especially considering the amount of time missed by the other halfway decent players like Vassell and Sochan.

The year before, Keldon shot 39% from 3 on 5 attempts per game (40% of his attempts). That’s really solid. It’s possible that was a fluke but I’m choosing to be an optimist and think that he’s at least a 36-37% type guy from deep which is plenty respectable.

Assuming that ends up being the case, a lineup of Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Wemby/Collins shouldn’t be bad from a spacing standpoint. And with guys like Graham/Branham (hoping his 3 point shooting this summer is legit)/McDermott we should have a decent amount of shooting off the bench too.

Don’t get me wrong: we could absolutely use more shooting on this roster. I’m just not sure it’ll be as bad as people here worry…but that’s admittedly banking on a few things going our way. If KJ really is a sub-35% guy, Victor struggles, Sochan still has no jumper, Branham struggles from 3, etc…then yeah it’ll be pretty rough

i dont think KJ is best served as being primarily a floor spacing shooter. the guy does have scoring ability. dont think his drive/bullyball game serves well alongside victor who at this point looks mostly like a face up scorer, or a pick and roll player. kj is not really a guy who operates the pick and roll either.

think long term he's best fit to be a bench player to punish opposing second lineups offensively while his defensive shortcomings wont be as big a deal against those players either.

for now he probably ends up starting anyway because i dont think sochan can really play the 3 at this point

[Obstructed_View]

Spacing is what opens up the lob.

Typically. A defender goes out to cover a three point shooter. Like I said, Victor may change that.

[dbestpro]

I think Sochan will start cause Pop loves to bring in offense from the bench, which he can do with Branham and Johnson as the first two subs.

[venitian navigator]

Barring some trades for more picks or for some unexpected veteran all star (or soon to be... I mean Lillard or Garland) point guard I think we're actually already more than set for next season...
Imho the only starting line up role in doubt is point guard but considering contract (one year 23 millions next one quite the same but only 2,5 guaranteed) veteran experience also as a starting point guard, the fact that looks like he's working like a mad man to be back in perfect shape and the fact that he used to be a good defensive player and 3 point shooter, I think Devon Graham should be the one.
That's hiew I see our line ups.
Starting
Graham Vassell Wemby Sochan Collins
Second unit
Jones Branham Mc D. KJ. Barlow
Third unit
Wesley Champ. Osman/Bullock Mamu/Bassey

Two way
Rice Cissoko x
Traded/waived
Birch Stevens one of the bunch that's not gonna be among the "big 15" (barring trade options as of now the more possible options are Barlow because he's still unsigned, but that Imho would be a mistake, Bullock, Mamu, Osman, Bassey, Wesley)...

[venitian navigator]

Sorry graham contract is for something like 12 millions guaranteed this year and 2,5 of 13 guaranteed next year)

[cutewizard]

[cutewizard]

[Obstructed_View]

That isn't Shaq. Who is that? Brendan Haywood was working summer league. Is that him? The little guy on the left is an idiot.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Nice to see your alt, DAF86.

I want him to shoot 7-8 3-pointers with 38-42% and play a ball handler in pick&roll, but he needs to improve those skills in the next 3 months before the start of the season and keep working on them for the next few years

[spurraider21]

[slick'81]

birch and ?

[spurraider21]

birch and ?

best bet is to flip a coin between osman and bullock. and that gets us to exactly 15.

before cissoko and barlow

[DAF86]

Keith Bogans was a three, but I'll give you Mason. Bogans never made a lick of sense on the Spurs in any role.

Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Mason Jr., Danny Green. All those guys started over Manu.

[DAF86]

Nice to see your alt, DAF86.

There are other sensible posters in this forum besides me, tbh.

[Obstructed_View]

Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Mason Jr., Danny Green. All those guys started over Manu.

Fin did. Ldn did. Jack started when Manu was a rookie. Hedo is a forward. Bones started 41 games in his time as a Spur.

[DAF86]

Fin did. Ldn did. Jack started when Manu was a rookie. Hedo is a forward. Bones started 41 games in his time as a Spur.

What's the point of this, really? Trying to mess up the argument just for the sake of not acknowledging you were wrong? Everybody and their mothers know Manu started the 2004 season in the lineup but Pop put Hedo over Manu because the Turk sucked off the bench. Pop literally benched Manu for Hedo but here you are trying to save face on a technichality.

Fine, if Hedo is a forward, then Bowen started over Manu, that would still make you wrong.

[duncan2150]

Without counting barlow and sidy so maybe three if barlow gets another two way

still some trade to come

[spurraider21]

Without counting barlow and sidy so maybe three if barlow gets another two way

still some trade to come

think one of the better trade partners could be miami if a lillard trade happens. as it stands they only have 13 guys on the roster, and they're going to have to send out multiple players in that deal to make it work. they probably would like a trade where they receive a couple of playable vet role players. some combination of mcdermott/bullock/graham/osman/payne

i dont think the spurs would move mcdermott just for the sake of consolidating, and i doubt miami will be in a position to offer trade compensation for him, so he's less likely to be in there.

think something like Lowry for Bullock/Osman/Payne works, for instance, if the spurs want to go that route. im sure the spurs would love to dump birch but i really dont see anybody opting to take that on, especially a tax team like miami


otherwise i like the idea that somebody else floated where we send some spare parts for Lonzo and a pick, but that requires taking on salary for the 24-25 season as well

[exstatic]

What's the point of this, really? Trying to mess up the argument just for the sake of not acknowledging you were wrong? Everybody and their mothers know Manu started the 2004 season in the lineup but Pop put Hedo over Manu because the Turk sucked off the bench. Pop literally benched Manu for Hedo but here you are trying to save face on a technichality.

Fine, if Hedo is a forward, then Bowen started over Manu, that would still make you wrong.

Hedo's bigger, and that makes him a forward. See how that works?

[exstatic]

think one of the better trade partners could be miami if a lillard trade happens. as it stands they only have 13 guys on the roster, and they're going to have to send out multiple players in that deal to make it work. they probably would like a trade where they receive a couple of playable vet role players. some combination of mcdermott/bullock/graham/osman/payne

i dont think the spurs would move mcdermott just for the sake of consolidating, and i doubt miami will be in a position to offer trade compensation for him, so he's less likely to be in there.

think something like Lowry for Bullock/Osman/Payne works, for instance, if the spurs want to go that route. im sure the spurs would love to dump birch but i really dont see anybody opting to take that on, especially a tax team like miami


otherwise i like the idea that somebody else floated where we send some spare parts for Lonzo and a pick, but that requires taking on salary for the 24-25 season as well

Bullock/Osman/Payne/Birch works. Their roster was decimated by free agency and the expected trade, so by providing them with a de facto bench of decent players, they can eat Birch's contract instead of us, and we get to sign Sidy and give Barlow an NBA deal instead of a 2way.