Summer trades

[exstatic]

Who do we think has to kick an asset to the other team in this hypothetical trade?

SAS: Fournier
NYK: Bullock + Payne

Fournier can be considered a salary dump, so NY would have to kick assets into the deal.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

[exstatic]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

[TD 21]

Fournier can be considered a salary dump, so NY would have to kick assets into the deal.

The Spurs should target the Pistons '24 2nd, which the Knicks own.

Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

More likely he'd be in compe ion for minutes with Graham. They could view it like between Sochan, Branham and him, they could have enough secondary ball handlers to get by. None can defend PG's, but it's not like they'd be a downgrade on Graham.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

That backcourt already looks plenty crowded to me with Brunson and Quickley at PG, RJ Barrett, Josh Hart, and they signed Dante DiVincenzo this offseason. Where would Payne even get minutes? Seems like they could use some more beef up front.

[Mr. Body]

That backcourt already looks plenty crowded to me with Brunson and Quickley at PG, RJ Barrett, Josh Hart, and they signed Dante DiVincenzo this offseason. Where would Payne even get minutes? Seems like they could use some more beef up front.

They were running three guard sets closer to the end of the year, which showed some success. I don't think they need Payne, though it does seem they were targeting him.

[Mr. Body]

Not that it applies to a Fournier trade, but the Knicks are one of the few semi-'contenders' who haven't blown their picks. I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available. They have all their firsts going forward and a good number of seconds.

This is kind of weird for 2024:

2024 - Own; DAL 11-30; DET 19-30 (via HOU to OKC); WAS 13-30 (via HOU to OKC)

It's highly doubtful they get all four firsts next draft, impossible even, but they will get two. The Detroit and Washington picks start dropping as they go on, but they may likely never see them. Detroit one is possible.

[sfernald]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

[TD 21]

I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available. They have all their firsts going forward and a good number of seconds.

They're supposedly not interested in him and are instead waiting out Embiid.

[Mr. Body]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

[exstatic]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

The Detroit pick drops down to 1-9 protected in 2027. It’ll convey.

[Darkwaters]

Does anyone know how NFL contracts work? I thought I read that they can have non-guaranteed ones, so you can cut a player if they're not performing, or for other reasons too I guess. Not sure how their contacts work

NFL contracts are quite a bit different. Players get a big signing bonus up front as well as an annual salary. Additionally, they may have escalators that add extra bonuses based on performance.

The annual base salary may or may not be guaranteed. Usually on long deals the first couple of years are guaranteed and later years are not. This means that a player could be cut and the remaining non-guaranteed money is never paid or applied against the cap.

The signing bonus is where most of the manipulation and difficulties come. The signing bonus is paid to the player immediately but is amortized against the cap across the life of the contract. For instance, if a player signed a 5 year deal with a 50 million dollar signing bonus the team would pay the player 50 million dollars up front but then be responsible for 10 million dollars per year against the cap (plus the actual salary earned for that year). If after one year the team opted to then cut that player they could be obligated to amortize the entire remaining 40 million dollars in signing bonus in either one or two years (depending on when the player is cut). That's where the term "dead cap" comes from - signing bonus that still must be applied against the salary cap even though the player is no longer playing and may even have a non-guaranteed deal.

Zeke Elliott with the Dallas Cowboys is a great example. In 2019 he signed a six year, $90 million contract. The first three years were guaranteed while the latter three years were not. Dallas should have probably cut him a year or even two earlier based on declining performance. But they needed to give it time for the fully guaranteed years to play through and also for the signing bonus to amortize a little bit more.

One other note, if a team trades a player they are only trading the base salary elements and they are still responsible for amortizing the salary cap against the cap. That figure is not tradeable and the original team that authored the contract must apply it against their cap. Trading a player is the same as cutting him and the signing bonus is due against the cap in either one or two years depending on timing.

[sfernald]

The Detroit pick drops down to 1-9 protected in 2027. It’ll convey.

The team they are building is just such a mess though. Ivey isn't developing well, just pounds the ball and turns it over. And him next to Cade isn't a good fit. Cade is always injured. Wiseman is probably useless and also not a fit with Duren. They have a weird love for twin towers in an age when even one tower is a bit archaic. They are building a team to always lose it seems. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are bottom 10 in 2027 honestly. Until I see them start to win a bit, I won't believe it.

[sfernald]

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

If it's just a trade consolidation and the alternative is to cut guys, then yeah that's probably fine. I would MUCH rather have them do this with any starting quality PG though. I mean, we just don't need any more SGs right now.

[CGD]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

I agree with this. Was looking at this as a consolidation trade, not one for a guy that i thought would play meaningful minutes for the team. Good point about the many smaller contract v one larger one.

[Ocotillo]

I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available.

I don't know about them targeting Embid or not but I don't think Thibs and KAT were a great mix when Thibs was in Minny.

[TD 21]

The team they are building is just such a mess though. Ivey isn't developing well, just pounds the ball and turns it over. And him next to Cade isn't a good fit. Cade is always injured. Wiseman is probably useless and also not a fit with Duren. They have a weird love for twin towers in an age when even one tower is a bit archaic. They are building a team to always lose it seems. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are bottom 10 in 2027 honestly. Until I see them start to win a bit, I won't believe it.

They're definitely too C heavy, but it's too soon to question Ivey's development and his fit next to Cunningham, which theoretically remains good.

The top 3 and 4 of the top 10 players in the league are "towers". Two big lineups are also making a comeback (teams starting 1.5-2 C's: Celtics, Cavaliers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Bucks, Timberwolves, Spurs; teams starting a true PF: Mavericks, Nuggets, Rockets, Pacers, Lakers, Knicks, Pelicans, Magic, Raptors, Jazz).

Considering they don't have a "unicorn" big, I'm thinking they run a rotation of: Bogdanovic, Thompson, Duren, Ivey, Cunningham, Stewart, Morris, Harris or Burks, Wiseman or Bagley III.

[JPB]

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

Seems to me Fournier is done. If he can't even show up for the french NT anymore (he was upposed to be the man in the last Euro but was a shadow on the floor, a 2018 Fournier an France win the chip'), I'm afraid he's also done as even a semi NBA contributor... I don't even know who would give him a new contract after next year (besides the minimum) and I can see him out of the NBA entirely before 2 years.

On a side note, his agent is (ofc) Bouna Ndiaye.

[R. DeMurre]

I think Donovan Mitc could be someone to watch out for in 2025, if the Cavs don’t do much in the playoffs over the next year or two he may decide to move on or the Cavs may try to get some assets out of a trade.

Can you think of a single team starting a 6'2" SG that has won an NBA championship?

[exstatic]

Seems to me Fournier is done. If he can't even show up for the french NT anymore (he was upposed to be the man in the last Euro but was a shadow on the floor, a 2018 Fournier an France win the chip'), I'm afraid he's also done as even a semi NBA contributor... I don't even know who would give him a new contract after next year (besides the minimum) and I can see him out of the NBA entirely before 2 years.

On a side note, his agent is (ofc) Bouna Ndiaye.

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

[Leetonidas]

Can you think of a single team starting a 6'2" SG who has won an NBA championship?

Joe Dumars was like 6'2 wasn't he?

[JPB]

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

Hard to tell but these guys are human and also subject to depression, burn out or existentialist issues... At some point they may lose interest in putting a ball in a hole... Maybe Founrier lost his mojo (or his GF) but he looks like a scrub now... Don't know if he can get it back tbh.

A similar and even more fascinating case is Eden Hazard in Soccer. they guy went from Premier League MVP and top international star to totally unplayable (but still cashing in 25M/year in Real Madrid).

[sfernald]

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

I don’t think he’s done. He had a really bad year with the Knicks (disgruntled and demotivated for various reasons, tibs, etc) and needs to move on from them. But I don’t see any reason he couldn’t come back with the spurs, play 30 minutes and shoot 40% from three. He really is a very good player, at least offensively. Not much defense, but then what spur plays defense these days? I think they are hoping and praying that Wemby can cover for all these deadbeats. I’ve just been watching a bunch of video on him. Really looks like a spur to be honest. If he wants to be here, I’d give him a try. Assuming Knicks pockets open up a bit.

[R. DeMurre]

Joe Dumars was like 6'2 wasn't he?

He was 6'3", and Jordan once called him the best defender he'd ever faced. No one has ever said that about Donovan Mitc , and it was 33 years ago that he won a le-- a very long time, which I think kinda proves the point that starting a 6'2" SG is almost always a good way to not win a championship.

[TD 21]

I don’t think he’s done. He had a really bad year with the Knicks (disgruntled and demotivated for various reasons, tibs, etc) and needs to move on from them. But I don’t see any reason he couldn’t come back with the spurs, play 30 minutes and shoot 40% from three. He really is a very good player, at least offensively. Not much defense, but then what spur plays defense these days? I think they are hoping and praying that Wemby can cover for all these deadbeats. I’ve just been watching a bunch of video on him. Really looks like a spur to be honest. If he wants to be here, I’d give him a try. Assuming Knicks pockets open up a bit.

30 mpg? Johnson and Vassell might be the only Spurs who crack that number, with Wembanyama hovering around it.

If they trade for Fournier, it won't be about him so much as it'll be somewhat alleviating the roster crunch and if McDermott is involved, clearing a path for Champagnie.