Jrue holiday?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material?

[poopbox]

The Spurs can almost not afford to bad top-five pick bad again. Guys like Vassell and Johnson can't afford to be terrible again. The Spurs had to try really hard to tank last year. I don't think they'd be anywhere near a top pick if they changed to a win-now posture.

As far as Holiday goes, they should 100-percent ask him if he's willing to pick up his option and stay in SA through his contract prior to trading for him. I don't actually think Jrue would have an issue with not being on a contender so long as he's on a team trying to win games and play their best players. But they shouldn't trade for him while he still has his PO unless it's for basically nothing. As much as those picks lack value, they have too much value for that.

Sure Vassel and Johnson can afford to be on bad teams again. Johnson already got his extension so it's not like he has any money on the line. Everyone in the league thinks highly of Vassel. You listen to any nba podcast you going to hear either that he could have been a candidate for most improved player last year if the spurs weren't tanking and not playing him or that he will be a most improved player candidate this year. If it don't work out for him in SA he will have plenty of other teams that will want to sign him. I actually think people well be surprised by how much money the Spurs will have to pay to keep him, compared to what they payed to keep Murray, White, and Keldon.

[Mr. Body]

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material?

Yeah, don't believe the chodes at nba.com anymore than I do their buddies at ESPN. It's just a bunch of morons running a website.

[Bruno]

I can't say I agree with this. Well, I can agree that rebuilding often involves tearing down and then hopefully building back up. But I don't think one will find many examples of teams that have followed this path to success. Instead, it feels like a team will tear down, sit as a bad team as long as it takes to get a star through the draft, free agency or a trade and then try to capitalize on that star by aggressively adding talent. We don't know for sure if the Spurs have their star or even multiple stars yet and in general if what kind of talent they have. That's why getting players to help determine that and who can help refine whatever talent they do have is a worthwhile goal. Trade assets are not money -- they don't just sit in a bank and keep gaining value. The Spurs HAVE to use the six picks they're looking at somehow (with the exception of the Chicago pick). They won't necessarily be any closer to having their young core by then. In fact, if the roster is clogged with even more meh first-rounders they might be further from that goal. Holiday wouldn't make the Spurs contend, but he could improve guys who might be on the team when it contends.

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

[spurraider21]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

im not sure about this. Tre's lack of shooting congests the offense more than it would with a more typical "modern" point guard. i agree that hes a solid ballhandler and passer (assist/turnover ratio and whatnot), but even things like Wemby as a pick and roll finisher cant really be fully evaluated if the point guard isnt a scoring threat. while wemby can shoot, he's still a guy that requires spacing if he wants to play a face up game, and the difference between holiday and tre there would be significant.

and even defensively, as much as Tre gives effort and is generally fundamentally sound, he's just physically overwhelmed at times. guess it would help evaluate help defense from others...

[JeffDuncan]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quan ies are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.

[spurraider21]

It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quan ies are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.

could argue the players need some direction and leadership to truly see what they have, and simply throwing them out there and hoping they figure it out among themselves isnt giving them a fair shake

[JeffDuncan]

could argue the players need some direction and leadership to truly see what they have, and simply throwing them out there and hoping they figure it out among themselves isnt giving them a fair shake

Coach Pop has magically changed into a potted plant? I missed that news report.

[Mr. Body]

It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quan ies are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.

Exactly. And I understand what people are saying that you need certain types of players in place to help other players develop. This is why I don't think Portland getting Ayton is a bad idea. He's expensive, lazy, may not be there after this contract, etc., but he gives the team structure on both ends and will help the young guards.

Thing is, the Spurs already have all the pieces around them they need to see what they have. They already have veterans. They have players at every fluid position and many with different skillsets. They have an offensive system that de-emphasizes the PG, a spot of weakness. They just need to get serious about defense.

As for how good they'll be -- dunno. I think a lot of people are discounting Wembanyama. Some reason they don't seem to realize he's on this team, he's going to be on the floor, and his impact is not going to be insignificant. I believe this is in part due to a lack of hype. If he went to an ESPN-approved market, expectations of wins would be wild. I think we're discounting the young players we have, like all these 19 and 20 year-olds are as good as they ever will be, when there's already significant talent on the squad. I'd take this group over Houston yet I think many here wouldn't. It's weird.

[spurraider21]

Coach Pop has magically changed into a potted plant? I missed that news report.

is he running point?

[The Truth #6]

So no way the Spurs are bottom 5 then y'all list a bunch of unknowns to support your argument. That doesn't make sense. You have no idea what Pop wants to do. That's the most important unknown. He may be content to go super slow with Wemby and rest him a ton, all with no great point guard options. That's the likely scenario based on what the FO and Pop have been signalling and by how they approached the off-season. So in a sense, if you admit there are so many unknowns you should acknowledge that the lottery is very much a possibility too.

[poopbox]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

How are they NOT going to be bottom 5? Tanking teams like Houston and Detriot will be trying to win. Pretty much every team in the nba made win now deals in free agency except for San Antonio. This team is a Wemby injury away from being the same team from last year. And I don't expect Wemby to play in 82 games.

The spurs need a starting caliber point guard. They did nothing to get one. They need a big who can shoot 3's at a decent volume they did nothing to get one. This team is going to spend this year figuring out what kind of players fit with Wemby, and I expect them to lose a lot this year in finding that out. I don't think they actually start trying to "win" until this upcoming free agency.

The only team I see as bad as the spurs this year is Portland and that is because they are unloading there veteran players and rebuilding.

[TD 21]

They could if they really wanted to, but won't for all the obvious reasons.

The only possible involvement I could see them having, is if the Knicks trade for him (which I doubt, considering the 76ers, Clippers, Celtics and Heat will probably be more desperate).

Something like Holiday and Bassey to the Knicks; Fournier, Graham and draft capital from the Knicks and Spurs to the Trail Blazers and Quickley and Hartenstein to the Spurs, could work.

[JeffDuncan]

is he running point?

Damn right Pop is running the point, and everything else about the Spurs. They have a playbook. You know that. They have a detailed game plan for every game they play. You know that. There is no time when any Spurs player is just sent out on the court and left to figure it out for himself. Never happens.

[Chinook]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

I don't think they just need someone who can "run the offense". I think they need someone who can elevate the standard of play on the team. That's why I've been in favor of many of these discussed moves. It's one thing for the Spurs to give guys a chance to develop. It's another thing to artificially create a roster where their guys don't have to develop much to get minutes. As I mentioned to SR21, the Spurs are now in a position where guys like Vassell and Johnson are culture leaders and the closest thing to high-position vets on the team. Why? What have they earned? Nothing. They were net-negative players on a horrible team. Instead of having to earn spots, they have second-round picks, expiring vets and UDFAs to compete against. What is their incentive to get better? As Poop said, Johnson may not actually see any. Vassell may want a new contract, but it's not clear that having him playing for that is what the team should want anyway.

Whether it's right now or really soon, the team is going to have to go, "Wow, we aren't in the poor house anymore. We have a legit blue-chip prospect. Unless their plan is to somehow get another one in the draft, then they should try to be good. Not "all-in" good. But surely better than penciling in Tre as the starting PG and Branham as the sixth man. They should bring in legit rotation players and say, "We like you, but we can't play you if you can't show us more than journeymen". Even if they aren't going to make any big moves, they in the very least should go into camp giving guys like Graham, Bullock and even Cedi legit shots at rotation minutes. , if Birch is healthy, he absolutely should get a chance at back up center given who the compe ion is.

[JeffDuncan]

… if you admit there are so many unknowns you should acknowledge that the lottery is very much a possibility too.

Certainly it’s a possibility. The difference is, last season it was the major goal to get a high draft pick, but this season a top five draft pick, to use that number, would be a side effect. The focus has shifted to player evaluation, as I understand it. Not to imply that a high pick would be unwelcome.

[Joseph Kony]

I think its pretty likely Spurs have a bottom 5 record again next year, though I would not be entirely surprised if they were ~10th worst. it really depends on Wemby and his health/how much leash the coaches give him. if he is the real deal from day one and hits the ground running, this team's ceiling is raised a bit, moreso if the coaches don't load manage or treat him like a china doll too much. if he has growing pains and/or has injuries/gets load managed a lot, the team will almost certainly be in the bottom 5 again next season. unless you think Devin and Sochan become all-star level players next season

[exstatic]

I think its pretty likely Spurs have a bottom 5 record again next year, though I would not be entirely surprised if they were ~10th worst. it really depends on Wemby and his health/how much leash the coaches give him. if he is the real deal from day one and hits the ground running, this team's ceiling is raised a bit, moreso if the coaches don't load manage or treat him like a china doll too much. if he has growing pains and/or has injuries/gets load managed a lot, the team will almost certainly be in the bottom 5 again next season. unless you think Devin and Sochan become all-star level players next season

He's going to be a Galactic level defender right out of the box, solving a lot of issues from the last several seasons.

[baseline bum]

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material?

Jesus, worse than Portland? Not expecting playoffs or anything but don't see this as another 22 win team.

[Chinook]

It's pretty hard for teams to have a bottom five record without trying to have one. The Spurs had to scrape and claw to lose as many games as they did last year. People may be underestimating the extent to which teams will tank once they realize they aren't making the playoffs. For teams outside the top 10, tanking is a state of mind rather than talent. If the Spurs want to be bad, then they will be. If they don't, then they'll be competing for the play-in, with or without Wemby coming into his own. That's why the single most important factor in this discussion is what PATFO plan to do.

But this discussion started under the assumption that the Spurs trade for Holiday. They shouldn't be projected particularly close to the bottom five if they were to trade for him. That's for three reasons. One, the PG position would go from one of the weakest in the league to one of the strongest. Two, Vassell and Johnson should see even better looks with Holiday and Wemby and thus should be even better. Three, trading picks for Holiday would be pretty solid evidence for what posture the Spurs are going to take this season.

In short, the Spurs could well be a bottom-five team this season. But they don't have to be. They aren't preordained to be.

[baseline bum]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

If they're getting a good idea what they have this year I wouldn't mind deadline deals, especially considering the Spurs might really need to jump on deals in Summer 24 anyways with the Atlanta picks starting in 25. Well unless Atlanta looks like a 20 win team and then maybe keep them and hope for Cooper Flagg in 25 or a swap to land Cam Boozer in 26?

[JPB]

No offense to Bruno but I don't see Tre as a"steady, solid" PG... He's a back up PG in any non tanking team... He's neutral at best, not a picknroll nor a shooting or driving threat that would open lines or space for Wemby. Not sure about his lob game either.

Spurs need a dynamic, skilled PG or swingman who can drive, shoot and lob to play the two man game with Wemby.

[MultiTroll]

Damn right Pop is running the point, and everything else about the Spurs. They have a playbook. You know that. They have a detailed game plan for every game they play. You know that. There is no time when any Spurs player is just sent out on the court and left to figure it out for himself. Never happens.

NBA Playoffs: Fans were stunned that Spurs didn’t foul late in Game 7 (usatoday.com)

[DAF86]

I always loved Jrue as a player. One of the most underrated players of this generation. I wouldn't give up a first for him in our situation though.

Although, I wonder if we trade for him now and trade him away to a contender at the deadline, could we get more draft capital than what we gave up? I don't even know if that's possible.

[Mr. Body]

How are they NOT going to be bottom 5? Tanking teams like Houston and Detriot will be trying to win. Pretty much every team in the nba made win now deals in free agency except for San Antonio. This team is a Wemby injury away from being the same team from last year. And I don't expect Wemby to play in 82 games.

The spurs need a starting caliber point guard. They did nothing to get one. They need a big who can shoot 3's at a decent volume they did nothing to get one. This team is going to spend this year figuring out what kind of players fit with Wemby, and I expect them to lose a lot this year in finding that out. I don't think they actually start trying to "win" until this upcoming free agency.

The only team I see as bad as the spurs this year is Portland and that is because they are unloading there veteran players and rebuilding.

I have no idea how you could be this delusional, and in service of this internalized demand to watch a sucky team I guess? One that doesn't exist? Just after pointing out that you don't seem to think Victor Wembanyama exists, you do it again.

The Spurs have more talent than Detroit and Houston full stop. Saying those are better teams is risible. They're better than Portland. Better than Washinton. Indiana, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans if Zion doesn't get it together, Utah, Minnesota, those are all teams that can tumble. Golden State, Clippers, Lakers are all age or injury away from mediocrity. Atlanta and Brooklyn too.

I don't think you realize how mediocre this league is right now. The Spurs purposefully lost all but 22 games last year. They could have won more. They added a player -- Victor Wembanyama -- who is real, although you don't want to admit it. And there is a good amount of talent on this.

Detroit is better. LMAO