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It’ll evolve. I think he’ll be the long-term 5 by the start of his next big contract.
Wemby is gonna play PF in the NBA, so you'll have to associate him with a strong big like Collins, Plumlee, Lopez... I mean, that's litterally what spurs are doing now, Wemby will never be left alone as the only big banging with the Embiids of the world. And I'm not even sure besides Devin anybody is guaranteed to be here in 2-3 years, if you make a big trade for a second star, you'll have to give.
Last edited by JPB; 10-20-2023 at 03:10 PM.
It’ll evolve. I think he’ll be the long-term 5 by the start of his next big contract.
Wemby will never be full time Center, to defend the likes of Embiid, Jokic. Wemby will play SF/PF, however he plays with Sochan/Keldon. Wemby is a much better at help-defender with his long reach, he covers so much area and can get anywhere in within 1-2 steps. He would get pinned down and get bullied if he plays Center. That’s why you have a rugged Collins, and big body Bassey. Bediako is a good project big also if he can learn to shoot. Barlow, he’s a PF and hopefully, if he can extend his range as stretch 4.
I agree, though, I think the Keldon situation will evolve. I’d love to see him be the 6th man eventually, with the Spurs drafting another dynamic 3 this coming draft.
I’m not super anxious about pg just yet, but they’ll need to solve for that in the next two years. I’d love to be ready to pounce with our draft capital if a Cade, Garland or LaMelo start complaining about their current teams over the next 2 years.
Never say never. , he’ll play some center THIS year. Reality is he’ll naturally beef up:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gian...VGLuyM&vssid=l
can somebody define and provide the parameters for what they would and would not consider a "traditional" or "true" point guard?
You know what I mean. Even Sochan would play C in small ball. I never really like labeling positions, especially Wemby is so versatile, he can play multiple positions, and like how MJ, Kobe or even LeSoft, they transcend traditional positions, and just play to their strength, if it’s scoring, creating, passing, etc
Imo, in today's game primary ballhandler needs to be a triple threat and have good enough IQ to balance his own scoring with involving everyone else.
Obviously, teams can function without a traditional point guard, but it requires experience. As in our current roster is way too young for Jeremy at PG to work right away, there are going to be a lot of growng pains and bad games.
I'm completely fine with it, but on the other hand, it would be better for Victor's development if he had someone to fully utilize his skillset on offense.
John Stockton
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
Jason Kidd
Isiah Thomas
Chris Paul
can we give a description of what the parameters are instead of just naming 6 people?
It's really troubling how folks can't just answer the question when it comes to this. I doubt a one of them would say Bonner and Blair were centers despite Pop starting both at the position at various times for years and even infamously playing them together for way too long. Like obviously those guys aren't centers. But then their brains completely slide over the idea that we all have a working knowledge of what each position is and that we're able to talk about those without getting pulled into a semantic hole when it comes to this discussion.
Pop says Sochan is the PG. He didn't say he was just starting with those other four guys. So for 's sake, we don't have to be cute about this. In the Spurs eyes, Sochan and Parker both play or played point-guard. It doesn't matter if they met some platonic standard for the position. That's where the Spurs put them, and we can talk about what we as individuals with brains think about it. Some of us think it's not really a good thing for the Spurs to do or are at least skeptical of how it's shaping up. Very few, I believe, think that because they're pining for the days of Avery Johnson. Instead of assuming you're brining a novel idea to bear that the Spurs haven't had many guys in the Avery mold recently, it makes way more sense to assume everyone else has eyes too and isn't a standard from the 90s. At least someone like Sugus was talking about the situation at face value rather than trying to bend the discourse with this strawman.
could also run offenses that just de-emphasize PG play in general, like the triangle or the princeton. sochan lacking some of the traits that i think you or i would covet in a PG would be mitigated, though would also exacerbate his lack of shooting.
there's a conversation to be had there, but yeah, it just defaults to the avery johnson meme. as if any two "non traditional" point guards... say sochan and gilbert arenas, are in the same category of player, just because they're both in the "non-traditional" bucket. almost as if the two categories of shapes are squares and non-squares
I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to teach you the ing game of basketball. Go be ing obtuse with someone else.
im trying to understand what your position is, but you are unable or unwilling to elaborate on the terms you are usingI'm sorry, but I don't want to have to teach you the ing game of basketball. Go be ing obtuse with someone else.
its hard to engage with that
Definition of a spur PG (2023 edition): Some guy who brings the ball up the court and give it to Victor Wembanyama.
In the other thread, I just responded to you with refreshers on how the Spurs actually used their PGs during the latter part of the Big Three era. Yes, there are a number of things they could do to mitigate the harm the PG could do (though remember in The Triangle, the PG does have to be a shooter. It's not just an incidental position. Sochan is learning, but I wouldn't say that offense suits his skill-set any better than some of the other offenses. There's a lot that goes into playing a position beyond just archetypes or general tasks like "bringing the ball up". I actually think you and I are looking at things in a somewhat different way in terms of our hopes and concerns -- it's just that we're both responding to the same flat argument and haven't even gotten into the nuances.
Like for example, I think you're more concern with Sochan's ability to handle PG duties. I don't particularly care if the Spurs want him to do those duties or not. I just want them to have a smaller-quick knifing guard next to him. Since that player will by convention be called the PG most of the time, that's what I want. I think we have discussion points in common, like how teams with bigger lead play-makers and/or offenses that didn't rely on classical floor-generaling navigated their rotations. My concern isn't that Sochan's going to suck at PG. It's that by starting him there the Spurs are setting themselves up for a less dynamic offense and one that doesn't help Wemby out as much as it should. I also think it's doing Sochan a diservice to have him focus on learning a new skill-set when he already needed a fair bit of shoring up to be a solid NBA player. Maybe Kawhi spoiled my thinking, but I've been of the mind that players don't have to start developing into stars immediately. They can get there after developing the role-player skill-set to be serviceable then elite in that area, and then use that foundation to start the transition. The Spurs have basically spent every pick since Anderson not following that arc. That's an old lament, and at this point I've learned to not worry too much. But I still wonder if the Spurs are going to get their PG in a year or two and find that Sochan isn't particularly equipped to play the forward position he should've been playing the whole time because he spent the year(s) trying to become a serviceable PG in an offense the team isn't even going to run anymore.
Good points. I think some of your concerns are handled by having Vassell and KJ as your starting guards. They are pretty dynamic cutters and aren't afraid to go to the hoop.
i'm not sure these are really separate concerns? im concerned that he cant do some key point guard things, which kinda implies he should play alongside a player that does do those things, ergo, a point guard. and your concern is that you want a PG next to him as well.
maybe its one of those "you got the same answer with different methods" situations
im not really concerned with navigating rotations. im ok with atypically large point guards. before he flamed out, ben simmons was an effective nba player. he shot even worse than sochan somehow, but was a much better point guard than i think sochan is. penny was a tall point guard. obviously, magic. and for many stretches of his career, lebron basically ran point. i dont think it has to do with managing rotations vs just having a guy who is capable at the things you need him to be. you're just more likely to find smaller ones than bigger ones. im not opposed to using a bigger one. im just not convinced sochan fits the bill despite him being a good passerI think we have discussion points in common, like how teams with bigger lead play-makers and/or offenses that didn't rely on classical floor-generaling navigated their rotations.
this is my big concern. i think there is a fairly obvious developmental path for sochan to follow, and thats to try to be the next draymond, and not try to be the next ben simmonsMy concern isn't that Sochan's going to suck at PG. It's that by starting him there the Spurs are setting themselves up for a less dynamic offense and one that doesn't help Wemby out as much as it should. I also think it's doing Sochan a diservice to have him focus on learning a new skill-set when he already needed a fair bit of shoring up to be a solid NBA player. Maybe Kawhi spoiled my thinking, but I've been of the mind that players don't have to start developing into stars immediately. They can get there after developing the role-player skill-set to be serviceable then elite in that area, and then use that foundation to start the transition. The Spurs have basically spent every pick since Anderson not following that arc. That's an old lament, and at this point I've learned to not worry too much.
im less concerned about that. sochan is so young and his offensive game does still seem pretty amorphous. think he could swap roles on the fly even now. im sure there will be lineups with him and tre sharing the floor this yearBut I still wonder if the Spurs are going to get their PG in a year or two and find that Sochan isn't particularly equipped to play the forward position he should've been playing the whole time because he spent the year(s) trying to become a serviceable PG in an offense the team isn't even going to run anymore.
I've mentioned before that I want a player who can reliably drive from the perimeter. I think that will provide vertical spacing while not clogging the paint the way a lob-threat big would. To me, it's not enough for it to be cutters. By and large those just keep a defense honest. I want someone who can bend even an honest defense, and that's someone who can force their man to make a choice while still punishing whatever choice they make. Keldon give me more hope in that regard than Vassell, because his combination of size and tenacity allows him to pressure on drives in a way that makes up for his speed. My worry is that he's purposefully not doing it that much anymore. That's specifically a weakness Vassell has right now, so I'm not really looking to him. The team badly needs rim pressure right now. They're most jump-shooters who rely on getting hot to score like an elite offense. Their offense seems like one that will be shut down pretty consistently by a team with good defensive fundamentals. That's why they need to pressure the rim, so they can create that movement in the defense to score even against talented clubs. Sochan might be able to do that if he gets tight handles and really learns how to use his body to block his man from stopping his momentum. But even so, I feel like he'd have more success doing that being guarded by bigs on the bench than by wings.
I do think they're separate concerns that just happen to align on certain points. They aren't diametrically opposed or anything, but there are a number of scenarios where I think your concerns would take you to a different conclusion. Like I want a smaller, fast scoring guard in the lineup no matter what. But I think if you saw Sochan playing well and handling his duties, you'd be fine playing the rest of the lineup. We both would prefer if the Spurs had a smaller quick guard they felt confident in starting at PG. But that's because, "That guard can handle duties in case Sochan can't" and "That guard can balance an offense that badly needs speed and dynamism" happen to intersect on that conclusion.
It's weird how no teams seem interested in developing that role. There are a number of forward-sized defenders who come out of school every year with good defense and passing but sub-par shooting. The raw material is there, but no one's been able to make it work.this is my big concern. i think there is a fairly obvious developmental path for sochan to follow, and thats to try to be the next draymond, and not try to be the next ben simmons
What's wrong with him being Ben Simmons? Ben Simmons has been a mental midget in the NBA. I don't think Sochan has that in him. I do agree with you to an extent though. I just think he could be something in between. He moves and is built more like Ben Simmons than he is Draymond. Not saying he's as athletic as Ben though. Tbh I don't really see him "running the offense" I think we'll make it simple enough for him and he'll excel and if he doesn't Pop will make changes sooner than later.
I liked him guarding Curry. Curry's obviously a super-canny player about getting open and his shots and Sochan did credibly well (preseason game). I think we'll see him on Doncic and Vassell taking Kyrie next week.
Pop is starting his best 5 players. I think that's all it is. We don't have a great classical point guard but we have Sochan who is a good connective player and still developing but can guard point guards, so he gets to bring the ball up.
Also, I think Pop is wisely accepting the Wemby era and not trying to force things (yet) and he is open to possibilities.
To me, I add that all up and see that they aren't trying to lose but they aren't trying to win yet, but they're learning how to win. I'm choosing to accept that and just enjoy the excitement without high expectations.
Watching Sochan run the offense, knowing when to hit the open man, knowing when to press his advantage, and watching him checking Chris Paul and Stef Curry, sometimes both at once, makes me super optimistic for this season.
yeah, Sochan looked a lot better on offense (except those ugly last few minutes) and showed point guard prowess last night
and he was a terror on defense
it’s just like last season… people forget he improved basically every game. His growth was exponential.
this is another “heS nOt a Pg” situation that people did with Dejounte
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