again. that's not at all what i've been saying.
Did he say black history? I read Pop was basically telling them what Africa was like. Pop's probably been to the continent more than anyone else on those teams. While there are obviously guys who can speak on it better than Pop, I don't think Africans tend to be any more comfortable with black Americans speaking about Africa than white. The intradiaspora conversations are more complicated than that.
It’s absolutely fair to say that no one knows what Wemby is thinking. I don’t think anyone is professing to have the inside track there.
But it’s not reasonable, at all, to assume he’s happy unless and until he comes out and says he’s unhappy. This season has not gone smoothly. The team is historically bad. He has been visibly frustrated with his teammates and overall play of the team. Even if his frustration wasn’t evident, it’s not reasonable to assume that he not “pissed about his current situation” given where the team is. He’s said he wants to win. We know that. It’s absurd to think he’s content, much less happy, where things stand now.
Vic doesn’t owe the franchise anything. The team needs to sell him on a vision of being able to assemble the right parts for him to actuatualize into the player he’s capable of being. “Tanking,” or “development year,” or “seeing what we have,” or any of the other drivel coming from the team is not persuasive evidence of the ability to do what the team needs to assure Vic that this is the right place for him.
I understand. What you’re not understanding is: what you’re trying to say doesn’t matter.
This is true, as a cautious pessimist, to me it's likely. In reality to the more level headed world it's a possibility.
Why would Pop pick Africa to teach to black players vs maybe, I don't know, England or Serbia or China?
Yeah would hate to get a Steph Curry on this team. You seem to keep acting like draft position is the end all be all or that high picks don't miss and you're only doing it because you're bent on passing off this season's atrocious basketball as a plan.
well that's just tautological, isn't it? but the point is lost on your further speculation. of course i understand that none of what we are saying matters; that's the consequence of conjecture.
with Africa. i agree but i know he has also focused on Black history as well and i think that's where it can get murky. at least from an outsider's point of view.
At least there's decent basketball discussion now
signing, they could have simply not waived the 2 useable vets they got from trades!!!
i have no idea what happened with payne and although he may have helped win a few games, i'm not torn up about him not being on the roster. i was never that excited about acquiring him to begin with. same goes for bullock; he's not exactly moving the meter over there in h-town.
How do you know not immediately putting talent around Victor tells him we are giving up on this really fortunate thing
I'm guessing Victor is in the loop
How do you know Victor and his management isn't on board with this plan? If I'm Victor and I want to win more than anything I am willing to lay low if it enhances the talent level I an surrounded with and makes my job easier and more successful.
Especially if I'm 7'4 and struggling with conditioning endurance and stamina anyway. Use the time I need to build my body up anyways in order to complete with NBA pace and players as games to lose intentionally so SA can increase the odds of landing a top draft pick and build the dynasty that I want my name associated with.
I'm not thrilled about this season either, and if the rebuild fails some very big questions arise for changes in leadership in San Antonio, indeed. Until then, you can't fail the student until the test is handed in.
The Sniffer position has essentially become "How do we know Wemby isn't on board with being historically bad?"
That's telling.
Sochan has more gravity on ball than off it. Also Sochan is at the point of attack that leaves the backline defense to be small. If he suceeded at that spot then you can get another big wing in the SL to provide rim protection as opposed to a guard. Makes your team more switchable and retain value in deep playoff series. There is big upside with that gamble and I don't think they are completely abandoning it just spreading the responsibilities to other players until Wemby develops more as the primary initiator or his shot develops. Traditional team construction, runs into a wall in a playoff series, getting 2 guards around Wemby is logical for regular season success but as we have seen in Donovan Mitc teams it gets predictable and very easy to guard once the post season begins. Solving how can you play the biggest lineup while having enough offense is the key to a championship.
Last edited by rankingtear; 12-28-2023 at 08:15 PM.
Houston isn't exactly on pace to set a top 20 worst all time record, though. Cam Payne fills a role on this roster at its biggest position of need. If I'm weighing the opportunity cost of having an actual PG and running a stable offense vs developing bottom of the bench players that will likely never amount to anything then its a no brainer to me that they should have kept him. I was shocked that they waived him considering the current roster construction. I was willing to go with it because it seemed like they had a plan with Sochan and thought he was going to be a usable point guard, but that turned out to be completely off base (or if it was the plan they were absolute fools for thinking it was a good one). Its early in the year so things can turn around, but frankly this season is a diaster for Sochan and Vassell so far. Wemby has plenty to work on and he seems legit AF so I don't think its the end of the world for him, but I can't state how bad I think this is for Devin and I think a large part of that is him not having point guards (this is definitely the case for Sochan). Its early enough in the year that both of these players can turn it around, but I also really worry about the lack of structure for these players having lasting effects. The bad habbits that have developed are palpable and I don't think you can just flip a switch on that . I think this all matters less for Keldon (who I legit think is now the clear #2 on this team - that's how bad Devin has looked) who can create on his own much more consistently.
I don't think its reasonable for Wemby's team to be sounding any alarm bells in year one under any cir stances, TBQH. It would signal a real problem with the type of player he's going to be IMO and we've gotten no indication this is the case but I think people thinking that are really just projecting based off Kawhi trauma.
The real worry is if they let Pop win 10 games this year and keep the job. Which is a legit worry, but I still think its unlikely. There is already palpable pressure mounting from places due to how bad the Spurs are, and I think its only going to grow if they don't get better throughout the year.
It’s “I could kill someone in the middle of fifth avenue and they’d still vote for me” tier
As of right now the Spurs are poised to get two top ten picks, would have a huge cap to sign/trade caliber vet(s), to add to a 2nd year Wemby who would be much stronger by next season. I don’t know what people are ing about.
Or people could just not think like you.
"Huge"? Its only 40 million, which if they were planning on tanking they shouldn't have signed Collins and eaten into the cap.
Of course, nothing exists in a vacuum. It is not reasonable for Wemby and his team to already be planning how they'll roll out the press release of him demanding a trade... but I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to be approaching the future with the same critical eye as anyone. The worse the team is this year just puts even more pressure on future years to show marked progress. We're on pace to win 11 games. If that comes to fruition, they are justified in expecting major changes (up to and including the head coach and GM). If they won 24 games, the pressure wouldn't need to be as intense next season and you might be okay with Pop and Wright and whatever vision they are pitching.
Just like any human being, the choice to leave for a different employer is ulative. Most people wouldn't get on for years at their job but decide to stay because the last couple of weeks they've had donuts in the break room. All of the bad vibes created for an historically bad season is just more of a negative hole to dig out of.
And if Wemby IS perfectly okay with being historically bad then what does that say about him? That's he patient and mature? Or that he's a loser? Fortunately, his body language says that he is not okay with it, at all.
Because they’re two top-ten picks in a below-average draft, are going to require years to develop, and the non-Wemby team is an absolute dumpster fire. The coaching, schemes, etc all suggest the old man has lost it.
They had cap space and the ability to make trades last year, and we saw what they did. Tell us when they’re going to flip into winning mode?
This is overblown an exactly what I was talking about. Dude is an elite prospect. But that doesn't mean he's going to instantly be an actualized franchise player. I don't disagree with a lot of the criticism you're going to levy through the rest of this post, and I have plenty of posts in my history fighting that fight during the off-season. But folks -- including Victor -- need to try to take their eyes off the greater picture and focus on the player they have. That guy is playing well for where he is in his career but is too raw to make the positive impact a lot of people expected. This was apparent in summer league, and it was apparently in pre-season.
We've got to get this idea out of the way that no team has ever been worse after drafting a generational talent. The Sonics finished with a worse record after Durant's rookie year and only improved three games in his second year (which was still worse than the year before they drafted him). Ignoring the guys were generational players but who weren't obvious top picks, I would assume it's more common for teams to take a win-now posture after drafting a blue-chip, but it's not required. That's even more true for a team that just started to tank.
This does not mean, of course, that the team isn't playing this wrong. But the record doesn't bother me, and if that were the basis for Wemby's frustration, tough ties. No one's going to honor a trade request because guy putting up his efficiency stats can't stand one year of losing. In real life, we don't have to worry about that. But in the fears/fantasy of some STers, Wemby's displeasure is magnified from a personnel issue to an existential crisis.
No, he has the potential to be an all-time great. SOOOO much has to happen to get him there. This isn't a semantic issue. People are subbing in that "projection" for the person, and it's messing with them.There are two givens that are incontrovertible: 1) Wemby projects to be a potential all time great
This is just true, but the implication that Wemby is the fourth franchise player is the issue. Dude is 19 and doesn't know what he needs in terms of scheme and personnel in order to be great. He's not capable to dragging the team to les. The team cannot treat him the way they treated actual franchise players yet. They didn't treat their previous franchise player like the player he would become either. They had no idea what they had, so they just coached him like a regular player and reaped the rewards.2) the spurs had its previous franchise player flee for greener pastures.
Easier said than done. Again, I was all in favor of vets, compe ion and a firmer coaching hand. I still think that was the best option. Why they chose to do things this way, to double down on their current crop, is up in the air. Giving Vassell and Collins extensions seems premature now. It seems probable that the Spurs liked the bones of their team. I don't know if it's a salvageable situation with better coaching, but ultimately, it makes more sense to kept their tanking posture for the rest of the year at this point.Wemby warrants immediately cultivating a winning culture (regardless of whether results are immediately obtained) and the FO, coaching staff, and team have utterly failed him in that regard.
See, that's fine. Losing is fine. It's not going to destroy him to lose games. How they've lost games is the issue worth discussion, but the only people really thinking this is bad for Wemby are those who are more focused on his image or legacy than his play. A lot of what I'm hearing is how embarrassing it must be for Wemby that the Spurs are bad or how they're not making him look like a future GOAT candidate. Who gives a ? That doesn't matter. What matters is that he's learning and improving, and while there is more of that than it can sometimes seem, I would say that part has been dicey. But his performance is fine. It's right in line with guys like James and Durant (and remember, KD also had the losing).To that end, Victor has not had a successful rookie campaign. Losing 17 or whatever it was is definitionally not successful.
This is projection. Victor has been looking frustrated, but we don't know why. Maybe it's because he's not getting the ball every time he wants. Maybe it because when he does get the ball, he's not as successful as he'd like and he's constantly pressing trying to "make up" for it. Maybe he and Pop are having a disagreement over whether Victor should have "limits" put on him in terms of structure, and the failure for the current thing working bothers him. Maybe Victor is used to his moves getting him better looks in France and he's annoyed by how he's not really open. Maybe he's constantly reading Chet's box scores and really wants to catch up to him. Maybe he's going through non-basketball stuff. It's player-fandom to pretend like you know and to use that to create divisions. I'd be glad that Victor is frustrated with his production, because he knows he can get better. Not being satisfied with a good rookie season is not a bad thing.Vic has been demonstrably frustrated with his middling teammates.
The Spurs aren't having a successful year so far. But Wemby's year and the Spurs' year are not the same. He's hitting realistic personal goals right now. The team should be better, qualitatively more than anything else. But that's not how you can measure Wemby, especially when you consider that like many rookies Victor isn't actually this big positive player a statement like yours assume he should be. It's very possible that if Wemby were not on the team but the roster were exactly the same otherwise that the team would have a better record. Of course, Pop is doing some indefensibly dumb things like playing Sochan at PG. But it's also not helping them that their highest-usage player also happens to be one of their least effecient and most turnover prone players on the team. Victor isn't solely the victim of bad play.The team has actually regressed despite adding the best prospect of the past 20 years. That’s not” success” by any definition of the term. You have a coach who’s employed an incompressibly incompetent defense that allows a three point oriented league to shoot open three pointers. Again, there’s no definition of success that encapsulates what’s been going on.
We'll see if moving Keldon to the bench a fix at all, let alone an "obvious fix". The original "bench Johnson" logic assumed Collins would start and Jeremy would play the three. I was never a fan of Sochan playing PG. I thought that was the joke solution to the roster conundrum. But if you're one of those people who thinks it was ever worth trying, who cares? No it doesn't matter that it took 20ish games rather than 10. Wemby isn't going to walk in six years because he had to play 10 extra games. I remain annoyed with Pop's lineup and think Payne should've been given a chance if Graham doesn't deserve one. But I'm more annoyed in the sense of my current enjoyment of the team than I am because I fear it will do long-term damage, especially to Wemby.Simple moves like keeping Cam Payne, giving up on the Sochan PG experiment early on, moving Keldon to the bench, etc could have been done, but weren’t.
That's because it's not really a good statement. They have more leeway now than they did with Kawhi. Victor will be a Spur for years. By the time Kawhi was a franchise player, the team only had like two years of him.The ultimate thing, that no one seems to be discussing, is this: this franchise doesn’t have the leeway it had 15-20 years ago.
See to me this is just crying and panicking, and it's more sad than it is angering. This, all this, this whole year -- it's not a big deal. It feels like it because you're living in it. But in terms of the long view, it'll be okay. I shouldn't have to kneel down by your rocking form and whisper "Kawhi's gone. He can't hurt you anymore." But a lot of Spurs fans have taken that unpleasantness and made it into a victim complex. Kawhi was one of the easiest departures in terms of what he gave the team while he was there and what he left behind. The Spurs got a le out of him and at worst didn't make the right trade to move him. Imagine Orlando having one generational talent walk, having their second elite talent demand a trade and already are trying to build with the prospect who could be their third. Or NOLA who had to trade two all-timers and had their potential third one eat his way into irrelevance. Neither team got a le from any of those guys. For s sake -- Let Wemby actually develop into a star before pissing your pants at the thought of losing him.Given the nature of the modern NBA, it’s more probable than not that a generational talent whose first year was set on fire for absolutely no good reason will bolt. This franchise has already shown a proclivity to have that happen.
Last edited by Chinook; 12-28-2023 at 08:32 PM.
"They'll have cap space!" is ultimate S-Tier Level Snifferism. Have you people learned nothing from being a fan of this team?
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