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You’re right. The other one is an nba champion lol
Jokic getting robbed of the MVP and Murray never making the ASG. The Nuggets trully are the new Spurs.
You’re right. The other one is an nba champion lol
The Spurs are in their second year of play top-five-pick bad, and folks are absolutely freaking out. It's mind-boggling. No, Wemby's not going to leave in year six because the Spurs weren't compe ive in year 1. No, you don't tank for one year and then go all-in. No, literally no team that tries to be immediately compe ive immediately after bottoming out succeeds. Just let this season go. For 's sake. Falling over for dude's like Quickley or Murray to the point where we see thread after thread of vitriol about the front office not trying to acquire someone -- it's just sad. They're playing Wemby at center. They have Jones starting. They finally look like a competent team that's playing improved ball but still losing. That's where you should want to be at this point. Instead, people want to make a Holliday (from Philly) panic trade, giving up current value and devaluing future assets. It's ridiculous.
Yes, PATFO can up the rebuild. Yes, the Spurs could find themselves in an endless sequence of tanking. Technically these scenarios are possible. But it shows a tremendous lack of perspective to project that based on this season. They have not built the base of talent they need to. They have one top-five pick and two top-10 picks on their roster. (I'm not counting Collins.) They have a chance to double those totals this season. This is not a highly rated draft, but every single draft has good players come out of it. Yes it's worth it to get those picks. We should also remember who Murray was as a Spur. A lot of the people calling for him now were perfectly happy to trade him before. He's a good player, but a limited one. The team isn't at the point where he'd make sense.
I've seen folks saying that DJM would end up being the fourth-best player behind Wemby, Vassell and the pick the Spurs get in this draft. That carries one of two lines of reasoning:
A) The Spurs aren't going to get out of the top-five even if the traded for Murray.
B) The Spurs are going to get out of the top-five, but the pick they use still has a decent chance to be better than Murray. (I'm gonna be generous here and pretend that Murray would be around for more than the next four years and we're talking about the prospect after he matures rather than suggesting he's going to be better than Murray after just a year or two in the league).
If A) is true, why are folks clamoring to make this trade again? Jones is perfectly competent to run the team as it stands. I'm one of the posters who spoke out most against the "Expensive Mistake" mantra. But trading real assets and committing solid money to a guy who doesn't move the needle seems unideal.
If B) is true, why are folks clamoring to make this trade again? The Spurs would have a chance to draft two players who could be better than Murray and keep future cap space open. They could make a future trade -- , even a future Murray trade. That would make way more sense if you trust Wright's skill enough to project him drafting a better than fringe All-Star player in the 6-10 range.
I think folks need to get over the fear response that Kawhi asking out seems to have instilled in them. We all have ideas for what moves we'd like the team to make. That's normal. I think if most of us are honest with ourselves, we'd realize we often advocate for things that turn out to be bad decisions pretty often. Whether it's trying to trade two first-rounders for Taurean Prince or urging the team to offer big contracts to John Collins and Zach Lavine, we say stuff in the moment and get to move on knowing we don't actually have to get it right. That doesn't mean a Murray trade, were it to happen, would be a bad outcome. I think there are definite plus and hypothetical paths for it to be the start of a turn-around. I'm more just saying to stop getting stressed out over it. Rebuilding is going to take years -- actual years of our finite lives. It's not always going to be fun, and it's perfectly okay to take a step back from the team for a bit if you don't like the inevitable wait. There are plenty of reasons to stick around to watch right now in my opinion, but I don't think that winning is going to be one of those reasons for a bit if the team actually goes through the process I think it needs to in order to build a contender.
Winning bad now
This Has Nothing To Do With Wemby Leaving And More To Do With Surrounding The Young Core With Vets To Stabilize The Team and Provide Healthy Compe ion As Many Of Your Posts In The Past Have Suggested And Aligned With, Chinook. I Do Not Have The Energy To Write An Essay Like You Have Writing This Way But Man, It’s Literally Your Philosophy About How The Team Should Be Built. You Are The Author Of That. I Feel Like I Am In A M Night Shamalan Movie And A Twist Was Just Revealed. Please Don’t Write An Essay Back.
Hilariously bad line of thinking. As bad as the Spurs are in year 1, if they don't dramatically improve there won't be a year 6 of Wemby, he will be gone by then.
Between the minutes restriction, awful talent around him, and incompetent coaching, they have already cost him ROY. This guy came into the league supposedly as some generational talent, the greatest prospect since Lebron, and right now he won't even win ROY. Massive disappointment.
As bad as the Spurs are this year, they have to be THAT MUCH better next year. You can't win 18 games this year then turn around and win 27 games next year and be like we won 9 more games. Congrats instead of picking 2nd you picking 7th what a turn around.
The spurs also don't exist in a vacuum. They don't just have to be a better version of themselves, they also need to be better than the other 29 teams in the nba. Because all of those teams are going to be trying to sign Victor as well.
Now of course the spurs are not going to go from lottery to le in 1 year. 2 years. Even 3 years. That is not the way the nba works...unless your Lebron. It's a transactional league. It's a drafting league. You get better by drafting well, and you get better by upgrading the talent on your team through trades and through free agency signings. The spurs don't need to go all in on one season...but these last two seasons have shown that the majority of players on our team are not good enough to do anything other than field one of the 5 worst teams in basketball and that CLEARLY won't be enough when you have a real franchise player. And then do you trust this front office to do those things? Do you think the drafting has been great the last 4 years? I don't. Do you think the free agency signing have been great the last for 4 years? I don't. Do you think the trades have been great the last 4 years? I mean we know the spurs can trade for 1st round picks, but can they trade for actual nba players that can help you win consistently? No they cannot. We signed Rudy Gay and got worse and worse and worse. We traded for Derozan and Poeltl and got worse and worse and worse. We signed the corpse of Demare Carroll and got worse and worse and worse. Every single trade they have done since Kawhi has contributed to them being a worse team. Every free agency signing they have made since Kawhi has contributed to them being a worse basketball team. Every draft pick they have made has contributed to them to being a worse basketball team. Past performance is a pretty big indicator of future results, and our front office has been EXCEPTIONALLY bad the last 4 years. I can legit only think of maybe 3 or 4 front offices who have been worse...but none of them have the current pressure of needing to build a team around a "generational talent" so they don't necessarily have to hit the gas like the spurs do.
I think that if we are not a sure fire player off team with the ability to at least have a compe ive 1st round performance in year 4 of Victor, it won't be a year 5. And why would there be? San Antonio is synonymous with winning. If your not winning, why the would you play for the Spurs?
You say "trading real assets"...uh there are only two...maybe 3 on this entire team. Victory, Devin, and I GUESS Keldon...though I disagree. Tre only looks good here cause our other guards a terrible. No team that is serious about winning is going to trade anything for him. Like you think Boston is going to cut Derrick White minutes to play Tre, or the clippers are going to cut Harden and Mann minutes to play Tre? No bad team is going to trade for him cause they already got a ton of young guards. You think Detriot is going to cut Cade, or Ivey, or Hayes minutes to play Tre? You think blazers are going to cut Scoot, or Sheadon, or Simmons minutes to play Tre? Nope.
I guess the good news is you don't have to worry about some bad trade happening for the spurs in season cause the spurs don't have very many players anybody wants.
I don't know if it has been mentioned in these 20 pages, but Murray has a max trade bonus in his extension. It will add $12M to it.
After a trade, his contract will be this summer $94M/3 years followed by a $31.5M player option. It's still a fine contract but it isn't that much of a bargain.
I can't think of any all-time great that hasn't made the playoffs by year 3. That's the goal the Spurs should aim for if they want to retain Wemby beyond his rookie contract. Don't rush it, but start shaking things up to win as soon as possible. I buy getting the highest pick possible for the next draft, but starting from next off season, PATFO better get moving to see some results.
Been there, done that.
Hard pass.
This is a pretty long response to arguments that no one is making.
No one here is suggesting the Spurs go “all-in” for Dejounte. Those of us who think this would be a good move have pretty much settled on one far out unprotected FRP (like ours or ATL’s ‘27.- preferably ours, betting on ourselves) and one less valuable FRP like CHI or CHA. Anything above that and I think most of us are good with walking away. This is far from an all-in move, especially considering our stockpile of FRP’s that we can’t possible all use. This is exactly what they are all for.
As for your A or B: it’s a false choice. Obviously those advocating for re-acquiring DJM believe he elevates the team. But Pop has proven it is still capable to successfully tank. Adding DJM and making our team better is not mutually exclusive of having two high picks in this year’s draft, to go along with two FRP’s (at a minimum) next year.
As for making the move now… no, there is not a real urgency to make this move now, a move like this can be made in the summer and it is all the same. And you’re on record saying the tanking stops this year and the team must be improved next season. So could we just make this move in the summer? Yeah, that would be fine… except the move isn’t available in the summer, it is available now. Could some other player of similar combination of ability, contract and fit be available this summer? Maybe. But maybe not. If you play the game of “let’s wait and see if some better opportunity comes around”, you’ll be sitting on your hands waiting, possibly forever.
If you think Murrary’s combination of ability, contract and fit are right for the team, you don’t wait for the summer - you do the deal now.If you don’t think his combination of ability, contract and fit are right for the team… then say you don’t think so, that’s fine, and then folks can chose to argue or not over whether it is right for the team. If he’d be right fit for the team in 6 months, then he is right for the team now. If he’s not , then he’s not. But right now you are arguing against positions that no one is really taking.
A potential DJM re-acquisition is part of a specific blueprint to the rebuild. Having a quality starting PG (which I think DJM is, at a reasonable contract) really facilitates and speeds up the rebuild in a way that doesn’t really sacrifice the plan going forward. It allows you to focus on a forward with your top pick and still take that developmental PG if you really want, but it takes pressure off of relying on some 19 year old who will need 3-years to develop at running the point for this team, which will be painful and slow down progress. It’s okay to not like this blueprint. You may have your own… or you may not, and simply just not like this one. That’s okay. But again, we can debate the blueprint without arguing against positions that no one has made. No one has suggested going all-in for DJM, to the contrary, we have scoffed at the idea.
And… no, being 6-30 is not “where we should want to be in this point.” We’ve started Jones for 3 games and have looked better and have beaten the only team that is worse than us. Let’s hold off on the ticker tape parade.
Other’s have said it best: Wemby has proven his window is already open. A half season playing with DJM (even if still tanking to protect our Top 5 pick) will be constructive at building the on-court relationship. With or without DJM (or any other player) the rest of the season should be about building the on-court relationships that are going to endure. We don’t need any more time seeing “what we have”. One thing I liked about what Pop said after the game today - they made a point to make Wemby the focal point of the offense. Good, we are finally game planning and developing a philosophy centered around our star.
Wemby has proven he is good enough to start putting real pieces around. The expectation should be at least a play-in slot next season. So let’s start building to it. We don’t need to purposefully suck ass to “see what we have” anymore.
Last edited by scott; 01-11-2024 at 04:01 AM.
ok so why don't you tell us which player that would be? Maybe cause there's nobody better available?
you want to wait 4 years???? And the Spurs could basically sign anybody since Wemby, Devin and DJ would only tie up 70 million together.
that's a narrative made up by Murray haters. He never asked for a trade, the Spurs wanted to trade him and tried to find a team that he would like to play for. Also nobody thinks he should be the 2nd option, but he'd be a great 3rd/4th option. We obviously still need to fix the forward spots, but PG wouldn't be an issue anymore. Also Murray just turned 27, he's not on the wrong side of 30 like you make it out to be.
We'd have a supermax slot with these 3 on the team so yes. I see it. You get a Star player at SF that team can contend. Ideally we do need somebody better at PG if we're talking about building the perfect roster, but the point y'all be missing is that there is nobody out there. So that player will most likely be somebody we draft and develop for 3-4 years which is when DJ's contract expires.
Last edited by RC_Drunkford; 01-11-2024 at 04:28 AM.
I have absolutely no problem with exploring a cheap trade for Murray but I don't believe for a second ATL would consider taking a reasonable offer from the Spurs for Murray simply because of how badly they would be roasted in the media for it. This thread is a lot of speculation for something that has almost no shot of happening. IDGAF what Shams is reporting.
To Support This:
It’s Time To Go For One Guy Or Two. Of The Decades I’ve Followed The Spurs, I Don’t Recall A Comment Like This From Pop Before.
Just more ammo for the same usual suspects to use down the road to say how BWrong is the worst GM in the league by not trading for DJM using some trash we didn’t want.
A Chris Paul Type PG From The Draft Isn’t Walking Through That Door. The Scenario People Want Is A Middling Prospect Type Like Anthony Black Or Derrick White In The Lottery Who Will Take Years To Learn The System And People Want A Lesser Type Vet Than Murray, Say Someone Like Schroder Or I Don’t Know, TJ McConnell— Cheap Players Who Would Start Until The Rook Is Ready And People Think There Is Some Kind Of Linear Progression From That? That Would Be Like LeBron’s Early Years Being Stuck With Z Igauskas And Larry Hughes… Because The Cavs Were Too Cheap And Pseudo-Savvy With Their Moves To Take Any Meaningful Risks. And Murray Is Hardly A Risk At His Current Salary And What We’d Ideally Give Up.
So Go On Guys, Let’s Waste Wemby’s Early Years By Being The Cavs Of Yesteryear Or Let’s Root For Having An Actual Plan In Place Where We Aren’t Praying For A Rando PG Prospect To Become The Next Tony Parker Without Any Veteran Support. The Spurs Can Do Both Develop And Compete, These Aren’t Mutually Exclusive.
The GM who executed that trade quit six months later. The person responsible was the owner’s failson, and he won’t be held responsible. The offers that are floating around are far less lucrative than us returning their 27 pick, the CHA pick, and giving up the CHI pick, or one of our own down the line. They can sell it to the fan base (and themselves) as “ hey, we got back two of the three FRPs that we sent, plus a different one.”.
I think your first sentence is the most poignant. It was a long well reasoned strawman argument that simply doesn't represent a response to the vast majority of arguments being put forward.
The turnover in GMs and failson (my new favorite term, thanks Spurstalk), should give Landry Fields some cover in taking a deal for less than what was sent out for DJ. I think it’s either a player and one quality pick, or two quality picks max. But to be clear under no cir stances should it be giving back the unprotected picks— those are gold given how things are unfolding over there.
TOR, CHI, and CHA picks: there you have your 3 FRPs back Landry.
This needs to be repeated for educational purposes.
Not to mention the obvious fact that if Spurs do end up offering the best haul for ATL, and they choose to take the 2nd best offer instead, they have to sell whatever that offer is to the fans. Not implying that the public would ever know what Spurs offered, just simply that it’s #2 in quality. Just doesn’t make sense.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what I said. My theories have always been about windows rather than short-term improvements. I've said too many times recently that the main goal right now has to be getting the best 2024 picks possible, both in the sense of the Spurs having a good pick and avoiding Toronto keeping theirs. I have talked about the need to cycle and upgrade the prospects on the team, and I am not a fan of tanking. But I talked about the team not rushing this rebuild to become a failed mediocre team. The trades people keep advocating for are at best attempts to do that. The single best way for the Spurs to improve their roster is to get more talent through the draft. This summer, they'll have trades and free agency. But not during this season, especially when the team is 24 games under .500.
Your essay talk is lame. If you don't want to engage, don't. But stop trying to criticize others for writing too much.
As Scott Pointed Out (And Yourself Actually, Since You Seem Quite Forgetful Of Your Own Posts— That The Spurs Have Enough Of A “Cushion”), Pursuing Dejounte Is Unlikely To Impact This Year’s Draft Position.
I Have No Problem With Long Posts Provided They Have Actual Substance And/ Or Responding To The Topic At Hand Instead Of Referencing Extreme Ends That No One Is Making.
I’d actually rather give them back their 27 pick than the TOR pick. The TOR pick might improve them too quickly, devaluing the 27 pick, if we keep it.
There is a bargain to be had here because we own their future flexibility, no other team would value those picks more. This is a unique situation that would be gone by the deadline.
That isn’t correct either. The Spurs were ok with trading DJM, obviously, but Atlanta made the trade happen. Atlanta initiated it, not the Spurs.
Atlanta was looking for a defense-minded guard to pair with Trae, especially for team defense since Trae is a bad defender. Also, they wanted playmaking help for Trae. DJM looked perfect for their needs, which is why they were willing to pay so much. All the Spurs did was say yes to an offer no team would refuse.
It was Atlanta that made the trade happen, not the Spurs, and not DJM, himself. Is the point.
The Spurs FO does not have that much initiative.
It’s odd Atlanta would want to trade DJM. His contract is reasonable, he still fits their needs, and their team weaknesses, elsewhere, are pretty clear. They’d be wiser to focus on other things. But they’re welcome to screw up however they please, should they so choose.
In a return to the Spurs, the role DJM would fill would be that of an interim pg, while the Spurs draft and develop their super duper pg of the future, whoever that mythical creature may be. But a reunion is unlikely, since many other possible destinations exist.
What DJM is worth in a trade depends on what Atlanta is doing. Is it a serious blowup, or a minor rebuild on the fly?
If they’re doing a blowup, they’ll want more draft picks than the Spurs should be willing to give. So that’s just a “no.”
For a minor rebuild they’ll be more focused on players. We could talk.
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