That and the fact that draft observers consistently seemed to be dubious that he could keep the good shooting up, as if THAT was the exception not the other way around.
To be clear I also like Risacher and would be happy with the selection. I just think Williams has the potential to possibly offer other things over time, like play making, size for the position (RZ is + 0 wingspan), and potentially better defense.
Trust the rest of us on this, you are wrong. Even Pop, who apparently thought like you at the start of the season, quickly realized his mistake. There isn't a single scenario where Wemby's best version of himself comes at any other position that isn't center, so please let's stop with this argument because it is a monumental waste of time. The only sure thing the Spurs have going for the next decade is Wembanyama at the center position, let's not overthink that.
Wemby's movement and length means he can play a bunch of roles on D, from the Rudy / Brook Lopez dominating around the rim role, to the Celtics use of Rob Williams as a roamer / helper. Both are playing Center, but he can do both. Think he's most valuable as a rim deterrent for now, though he could become a pterodactyl off ball roamer on D.
I'd be interested in the Spurs getting Isaac as a 4 who can cover centres better than Sochan can (for now, muscle development would help), but I don't think a 3 - 5 like that exists in the draft (hard archetype to fill).
He doesn't want to be stuck at center. He has made it clear he wants to not only be a center.
He wants the ability to shoot on the perimeter at times and another low post player allows him some flexibilty do move away from center at times. Need to make him happy or he is gone.
Does it seem like he's being stuck out there? The kid is shooting threes, running pick and rolls as the ball handler and bringing the ball up the court. The difference is that he's way more efficient doing all of that when he doesn't have another bigman with him getting in his way.
speaking of Tyler Kolek, here’s an interesting scouting report on his last game. Me wants!
Pop didn't "Think like me" because I think Wemby should be playing center right now. That's the position his current combination of skill and physical traits lends itself to. A lot of people thought he'd have to play PF because he wouldn't have the girth to play the five. The reality is that he doesn't have the refinement to play the four yet. It seems clear that he wants to be a forward, but he can't hang there consistently in the NBA until he develops his handles and overall floor game more.
To a few of us, it's very apparent that Victor is going to need to take some time to improve his own play if the Spurs are going to eventually become a real contender. The question is what shape that improvement will take. If it's becoming a center, he'll need to work on offensive timing, screen setting and post-moves (because that's still where centers iso) and in general build strength to limit how often the Spurs cross-match against opposing centers. If Victor gets his wish and he moves more into a perimeter style, he'll be tightening up his handles, working on his PnR ball-handling game and eventually develop consistent go-to moves in the high post.
The skills he develops will determine what sorts of players will fit with him and thus what "position" he'll play. There's no reason to pigeonhole the best prospect ever, especially when it's against his wishes.
Seeing Sarr first hand at wildcats games to know this scouting report pretty much echo's what I've said and watched of him .
When will Spurs fans that want to see Wemby as a forward stop spreading this fake news?
Wemby never said anything about not wanting to play center (at least publicly, and I supose internally either since that's the position the Spurs have him playing), he has played center his entire life. He just wants "not to be put on a box". Just like centers like Jokic and Embiid aren't. Do yall feel like Wemby is being put in a box despite playing center? Of course not.
Wemby will never be at his best at the forward position. He will never have tight handles because his center of gravity is just way too high. He can work on his handles as much as he wants, he will still get stripped countless times if he's trying to attack from the perimeter like a traditional wing. It works as a center as a change of pace, not the other way around.
It is also a disservice not to have him around the rim as much as possible. Again, he can shoot a three here or run a pick and roll as the ball hander there, but that can't be his bread and butter. There's no scenario where the Spurs get the most out of Wemby while he's staying out on the perimeter while a less skilled, less physically imposing bigman gets the touches closer to the basket.
I know you always had a hard time adapting to this "only one bigman" NBA era, but it is time for you to let it go. I really didn't think we would still be arguing about this matter at this point of the season, tbh.
That perimeter defense of quicker players on the switch really stood for me in the playoffs. Altho Sarrs usage on offense went down.
I get ur point and agree but that’s the era we live in with the one and dones…
Im not saying he’s a sure thing but that his main weakness is the easiest thing to work and improve on.
Whoever we pick will have « ? » and I’d rather bet on a perfect NBA prototype to develop than an undersized player or one that has injury risks.
again only because nobody in this draft class seems a sure thing.
Yeah, no. Wemby is a lot different than Ibaka. This is diminishing a lot of what Wemby does on defense. Wemby “controls” the paint and intimidates other players from scoring inside. He’s an actual presence like you know… most centers. Ibaka is nowhere close to that level.
This seems like one of those things we’ll look back to and see how very wrong the other person was, and I’m confident I won’t be the guy that’s wrong. It’s clear as day they’re sticking with Wemby at center. The majority who thought previously he would be a PF (and even a SF) have become a minority now and that minority will soon be nobody when next season is done.
Wemby's playing like a center on defense but it's "clear as water" he doesn't on offense. Spurs don't ask him to just stay in the paint, low post and rebound. He's playing like a tall (very tall) wing on offense, starting the sets a lot of time on the perimeter, driving, shooting 3s off the driblle and making plays.
Adding another dynamic big who can screen, rebound, catches lob and mobile enough to defend opposing bigs or wings can be intriguing and interesting depending on match ups. That'll always be better than Sochan or whatever spurs have now.
Saying Wemby is a center seems basically correct in that he's the only big man out there when he plays, but he's sort of redefining that role, so I think it's fair to question if what he's doing is really a center as we have come to know it. He's playing all over the floor so I guess you could call him a stretch center. But the more he stretches, the more wiggle room there is to play alongside another big man, in theory. To me, overall, it's sort of a gray area. Personally I just leave it at that.
On a tangent, when Victor plays everywhere and he's allowed to do that, obviously as he should being his first year and being a generational talent, the flip side is that when the whole court is his, it is going to be hard for the other players to figure out their geographic space as well as their role. That's going to be hard for 19 and 20-year-old young players to figure out right away.
Anyway. Back to the draft.
How he plays and the effect he has on other players aren't the same thing. He had that intimidation factor when he played PF too. It's just Collins is the anti-Wemby. Again, taking Wemby/Collins not working as proof Wemby has to play center is the thing I take issue with Wemby plays weakside shot-blocker more than anything else defensively, and that's not the traditional task of a center, especially not exclusively.
Who cares? Who cares if we're right or wrong on a message board? We're not having these discussions to predict the future or to manifest change. It certainly doesn't matter how many fans think Wemby will play as a forward versus at center, just like the inverse didn't matter last year. What'll be will be.This seems like one of those things we’ll look back to and see how very wrong the other person was, and I’m confident I won’t be the guy that’s wrong. It’s clear as day they’re sticking with Wemby at center. The majority who thought previously he would be a PF (and even a SF) have become a minority now and that minority will soon be nobody when next season is done.
Jokic and Embiid are not atypical centers just because they have additional skills. They're primarily post centers and great rebounders who need to be the biggest/slowest players on the floor. Considering guys like Bam also play the position, the center "box" doesn't really exist and wouldn't be worth fighting about. Maybe that's what Victor meant, but that interpretation needs more support than emojis.When will Spurs fans that want to see Wemby as a forward stop spreading this fake news?
Wemby never said anything about not wanting to play center (at least publicly, and I supose internally either since that's the position the Spurs have him playing), he has played center his entire life. He just wants "not to be put on a box". Just like centers like Jokic and Embiid aren't. Do yall feel like Wemby is being put in a box despite playing center? Of course not.
It doesn't work right now. The only reason why Victor's perimeter game doesn't get more criticism is because the Spurs are awful. People constantly on the team for failing Wemby while overlooking how much that lack of meaningful games allow him to freelance. Teams are guarding him with PFs now because the Spurs don't have a front-court mate that will stop them from doing it.Wemby will never be at his best at the forward position. He will never have tight handles because his center of gravity is just way too high. He can work on his handles as much as he wants, he will still get stripped countless times if he's trying to attack from the perimeter like a traditional wing. It works as a center as a change of pace, not the other way around.
See this sounds exactly like putting him in a box by your definition. If Wemby specs into more perimeter skills and doesn't spec into skills in the paint, he's going to be more like the latter scenario you mentioned. Again a guy like Giannis is amazing despite not being the shooter Wemby is, so I'm not sure the only option is that he stands around the perimeter rather than being a more traditional wing slasher.It is also a disservice not to have him around the rim as much as possible. Again, he can shoot a three here or run a pick and roll as the ball hander there, but that can't be his bread and butter. There's no scenario where the Spurs get the most out of Wemby while he's staying out on the perimeter while a less skilled, less physically imposing bigman gets the touches closer to the basket.
What a random shot. I think you'll find plenty of evidence for me talking about single-big offenses over the years. I'm the same guy who talks about Keldon playing PF and Gay playing center. Just because I have a mind open to things you don't agree with doesn't mean I can only think in those ways.I know you always had a hard time adapting to this "only one bigman" NBA era, but it is time for you to let it go. I really didn't think we would still be arguing about this matter at this point of the season, tbh.
Well, he has the widest catch radius, so he certainly has the highest potential. Sure, certain technical things could use refinement, but that's to be expected at 20.
The point is, if someone can do center like things at an elite level and their skillset/physical advantages are more pronounced at it, then they're a center. It doesn't matter what style they play it in. Of course he's not a "true" one in the mold of Jokic, Embiid, etc. Davis, Sabonis, Adebayo, Porzingis, etc. aren't either, they're still centers.
Playing him next to a rim runner or post up player would be Collins and Bassey redux.
Wemby at is best will be a stretch 4 / help defender and a small ball 5 against certain lineups. He has the mobility / agility to wreak havoc. Get him a big body to pair next to him…
I would say he's behind the curve there, though. Guys with less physical gifts than Victor but who grew up playing center have a lot of experience with these types of actions. That Wemby struggles to set good screens despite being a center at the professional level for years is all the evidence one needs for his inexperience.
None of those guys can play with other centers, which is something Wemby might develop to being able to do. I would definitely put Victor further along in that curve toward being a wing than the examples you listed, though how far remains to be seen. I have no doubt that Wemby can be a center long term. I just think he might develop into a combo-big where playing with a center for long stretches is what he does.The point is, if someone can do center like things at an elite level and their skillset/physical advantages are more pronounced at it, then they're a center. It doesn't matter what style they play it in. Of course he's not a "true" one in the mold of Jokic, Embiid, etc. Davis, Sabonis, Adebayo, Porzingis, etc. aren't either, they're still centers.
Collins shouldn't be evidence of much, because he's been awful most of the time. Even before we knew that, I suggested he looked more like a single-big player anyway. Bassey and Wemby played well together, so I don't think they have a reason to scratch that archetype off the list yet. Getting a better Bassey would be one of my goals, as well as swapping Charles and Dom out for other centers to keep the experiment going.Playing him next to a rim runner or post up player would be Collins and Bassey redux.
Saying that Wemby should play alongside another big is being ridiculous.
Every team in the league is trying to be as mobile as possible and you'd want to take away Wemby's advantage over traditional bigs?
In a year or two, noone will be able to stay in front of him. And you want to take that away?
The entire point of small lineups is to run the traditional bigs off the floor and we'll be able to do it with a 7'4 GOAT defender.
Positions on offense don't matter anymore. On defense he's a center for all intents and purposes.
The only reason to play him together with another big would be if he couldn't handle someone in the post.
But he's already proven that he's as good as anyone at matching up with MVP level bigs.
Get a big, two-way wing that can shoot as his front court partner and we're good to go.
While Victor's perimeter game right now is erratic and unpolished, most of those bad plays are a product of noone else being able to create and then Victor is forced to do it.
And I actually like that he's doing it. We're not competing, it's better for him to figure out what he can and can't do.
I have a slightly different approach angle to the discussion of whether Wemby is a center, or a power forward, or a small forward, etc...
Rather than debating if Wemby is a center in the traditionalway we think about centers... or a PF in the traditional way we think about PFs... I think the reality is that Wemby is the "Center (of the team)" and will redefine the way lineups are built around him. Whatever historical constructs of lineups have existed in the past need not apply. All that matters is what optimizes what you get from a lineup that features Wemby (which is different than optimizing the output you get from Wemby). In an era of position-less basketball, Wemby is the cheat code: the position-less player.
Positions are irrelevant, archetypes are what matter when dreaming up optimal lineup constructions around Wemby. Most of the time, Wemby will likely most closely resemble what we think of as a center, but we'll continue to see what we have all year - glimpses of him playing other roles. That versatility can create a degree of unpredictability that can cripple other teams.
The above is a reason I'm not interested in Saar. I think Saar lacks that versatility and freezes Wemby out of certain opportunities while they share the floor with one another, because those roles are the only ones Saar can thrive in. We need players surrounding Wemby that don't crowd Wemby out, instead we need players who fill up the space that Wemby is incapable of occupying (lead ball handler, sniper, etc).
Sarr and Wemby could end up being just fine on the defensive end. i just have some questions about offense. as chinook has pointed out, the wemby/bassey pairing was actually fine in their limited time together, and sarr profiles as a pure upgrade to bassey.
but if the spurs are in a position to take sarr, they better do all kinds of due diligence and have a pretty ing good idea beforehand whether the two can coexist. cant go with another "well lets just see how it goes" season. i know its hard to do, but its also their in job, and theres a reason we dolts are just here on a messageboard and elsewhere people do this as their full time job
In PATFO we trust
One thing is sure to me, Sarr could be fine as a back up. So that's a dozen to 15 minutes/game for him. could they coexist like 8-10 min a game if you need more rebounds and rim protection on defense and have two mobile bigs playing the two man game with Wemby as a shooter and playmaker on offense? that's intriguing, I should say... Jokic size allows him to play above the game and defense to find passes PGs can't. A Wemby/Sarr lob or entry pass to the other is unguardable, both playing above the defense, then eventually finding shooters or cutters around. (Now, you have to find those shooters).
Vic/Sarr/3 shooters could work for short stints.
Like Vic/Sarr/Trae or Brogdon/SG (Vassell)/3&D wing
Last edited by JPB; 03-26-2024 at 04:06 PM.
i know its not a great draft, but i'd be hard-pressed to use a top 3 pick on a guy im earmarking to be a full time backup. if im taking him there, its because i believe he can play alongside vic as well as serve as a backup.
so, if Vic starts playing 32-33 mpg, Sarr plays about 15-16 minutes as the backup and also another 10 alongside Vic, at least as a rookie
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