There is Markannen to Spurs Buzz

[Dejounte]

Tell us about why you still visit and post to this website.

Unable to control the impulse?

Guy with the most mental problems has the audacity to say that other people have mental problems.

Here’s a reality check… when everybody else is wrong all the time, maybe you’re the wrong one? Guy probably never did any self-reflection in his life.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, seriously. You can not like a guy for a team, but you can’t make up about how there will be many better options in the future. That’s where these guys get stuck and have nobody to name. There’s actual historical reference on what type of players are attainable… and very few of them are guys that people actually want. But no… let’s spout nonsense about how Lauri isn’t good enough and keep sitting on our pile of goods for what? Nothing.

No concrete plan. Just keep wishing for the best and that’s it.

Nah. Thats just wrong. You want me to name every single wing and guard in the draft in 25 - 27 because that’s most likely where it comes from? You want me to list the names of the all-star types that are available for trade every 2 years that we’ve seen last 10 years? I mean its kind of obvious that between draft and possible but not exactly know yet all stars theres always opportunities.

I even answered your ty hypothetical that you asked when I told I didnt think it was a good exercise and you implored me to treat it as a mental exercise and I did it and you are still mad? Make it make sense

[Dejounte]

Lmao I did exactly what was asked of me. I was told it’s completely hypothetical so I gave my hypothetical targets. Why are you mad I did exactly what was asked of me?

Cam Johnson completely realistic target. Jerami Grant. Simone Fontecchio. Several examples.

The next step to that exercise was for you to realize that none of those pie in the sky targets are ever available, but I’m not sure that clicked.

Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, Fontewhothe ? These are your needle movers that you want to trade our goods for? Mediocrity, here we come…

[scott]

Lmao I did exactly what was asked of me. I was told it’s completely hypothetical so I gave my hypothetical targets. Why are you mad I did exactly what was asked of me?

Cam Johnson completely realistic target. Jerami Grant. Simone Fontecchio. Several examples.

That's fine, thanks for sharing the list. It shows how you value you Lauri, which is your opinion that you're en led to. Suffice to say, most people disagree, but that's also okay.

[DPG21920]

You say this, and then you follow up with names like Cam Johnson. Cam Johnson may offer a vaguely similar spacing and skillset, the same way Keldon Johsnon offers vaguely similar spacing and skillset to Jaylen Brown.

But, I think we're all willing to hear this list of names, since there are plenty of them. I'm not aware of a lot of 7'0" 50/40/90 guys (on a high volume of 3P shots) in this league.

You literally just named one! No one is saying that Cam is better than Lauri, but we are comparing skillsets in a role and Lauri as the main man in UTA is not going to have the same role and usage as the third option in SA given hes not a self creator so he cant be top 2 in usage. So in that mold, WITH CONTEXT, taking price into consideration yes, I would rather have a slew of other guys for that whether that comes via draft next year, free agency today or trade right now than getting fleeced for Lauri.

I dont understand what’s so hard other than yall being so damn thirsty for names you’re willing to get pummeled in a deal just for the sake of “doing something big!!!”

[Dejounte]

Nah. Thats just wrong. You want me to name every single wing and guard in the draft in 25 - 27 because that’s most likely where it comes from? You want me to list the names of the all-star types that are available for trade every 2 years that we’ve seen last 10 years? I mean its kind of obvious that between draft and possible but not exactly know yet all stars theres always opportunities.

I even answered your ty hypothetical that you asked when I told I didnt think it was a good exercise and you implored me to treat it as a mental exercise and I did it and you are still mad? Make it make sense

“Make it make sense” is exactly the phrase I’d expect from someone who doesn’t ing get it.

[LeBowen]

Lmao I did exactly what was asked of me. I was told it’s completely hypothetical so I gave my hypothetical targets. Why are you mad I did exactly what was asked of me?

Cam Johnson completely realistic target. Jerami Grant. Simone Fontecchio. Several examples.

Cam Johnson is a good player, but with the haul they got for Bridges, Nets won't let him go for cheap.
I expect them to ask for 2 FRPs. Too much for a role player.
But I can get behind that one, reasonable choice.

Jerami Grant is a tank commander. He went from Nuggets to Pistons for more or less the same money because he wanted a bigger role.
One of those main character syndrome players. He's a poor rebounder for his size and not much better defender than Markkanen, while being a tier worse scorer.
Yeah, he wouldn't cost much, but he's got 132/4 left on his deal, already turned 30. That contract has a good chance of becoming a negative asset.

I also want Fontecchio. I think Spurs are in the running if they don't get Markkanen.
I'd try for him even if we get Markkanen.

You literally just named one! No one is saying that Cam is better than Lauri, but we are comparing skillsets in a role and Lauri as the main man in UTA is not going to have the same role and usage as the third option in SA given hes not a self creator so he cant be top 2 in usage. So in that mold, WITH CONTEXT, taking price into consideration yes, I would rather have a slew of other guys for that whether that comes via draft next year, free agency today or trade right now than getting fleeced for Lauri.

I dont understand what’s so hard other than yall being so damn thirsty for names you’re willing to get pummeled in a deal just for the sake of “doing something big!!!”

Why wouldn't he be able to be top2 in usage?
He's a better self-creator than Klay was. Didn't stop Klay from being the second option on a championship roster.

Players that can score on high volume while keeping their efficency and not needing the ball are more valuable as second or third options than ball-pounders.

As I said, if Castle-Devin-Wemby turn out to be Jrue-Middleton-Giannis, Lauri would be a perfect Brook, just a way better shooter.

[scott]

Some Spurs fans just want to win every deal at all costs, because winning individual deals is more important to them than substantially improving the team via the trade market. If you want to take that approach, that's fine - but you've got to nail your drafts and make sure that is where your core comes from, because you usually aren't getting a second or third star by penny pinching your way through trades.

"We're still a lotto team, but at least we won that trade by only giving up a SRP for this rotation level player we have in the starting lineup!"

[DPG21920]

That's fine, thanks for sharing the list. It shows how you value you Lauri, which is your opinion that you're en led to. Suffice to say, most people disagree, but that's also okay.

I dont think people on ST who say “pay 5 firsts! And Keldon or Sochan” are indicative of how many value Lauri. I think most would agree with my by the %s tbh…I like Lauri, hes worth going for but hes not worth trading 4+ firsts + good young player(s) for in light of his skillset, his role if he were on the spurs alongside the opportunity cost of those picks/players.

I dont think this is controversial either even with some guys valuing him differently.

I love how I get asked to “name names” despite all the pro “give up the farm for Lauri” guys not doing any of the work I asked (i.e. actually doing the work that I have and comparing Lauri to the other 5-10 best guys at SF/PF and their self creation rates, assisted basket %, offensive hub FT rates, defensive impact etc..) vs just loving his name?

On top of ignoring that “name the names” misses the context of most of us thinking that will come via the draft and you just want me to list all the draft prospects in the next 2-3 drafts?

[DPG21920]

The next step to that exercise was for you to realize that none of those pie in the sky targets are ever available, but I’m not sure that clicked.

Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, Fontewhothe ? These are your needle movers that you want to trade our goods for? Mediocrity, here we come…

No it did. I literally prefaced my list WITH EXACTLY THAT SENTIMENT TO ILLUSTRATE I FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU WERE GETTING AT

[DPG21920]

“Make it make sense” is exactly the phrase I’d expect from someone who doesn’t ing get it.

Ya. Of all the people here, it’s me that doesn’t get it and you clearly have it all figured out and Spurs should offer up the farm for Lauri and not think twice. It’s clear as day to anyone with a brain you are right!

[DPG21920]

The next step to that exercise was for you to realize that none of those pie in the sky targets are ever available, but I’m not sure that clicked.

Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, Fontewhothe ? These are your needle movers that you want to trade our goods for? Mediocrity, here we come…

No. We dont trade Lauri package for them. Thats the point. We trade reasonable deals, get similar archetype that ,moves us forward and keeps us flush with our best assets for an opportunity that makes more sense.

[scott]

You literally just named one! No one is saying that Cam is better than Lauri, but we are comparing skillsets in a role and Lauri as the main man in UTA is not going to have the same role and usage as the third option in SA given hes not a self creator so he cant be top 2 in usage. So in that mold, WITH CONTEXT, taking price into consideration yes, I would rather have a slew of other guys for that whether that comes via draft next year, free agency today or trade right now than getting fleeced for Lauri.

I dont understand what’s so hard other than yall being so damn thirsty for names you’re willing to get pummeled in a deal just for the sake of “doing something big!!!”

It's the opposite side of the coin as how you're so thirsty to get bargains that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Also, Lauri would be our second option, not our third. Devin would be our third option (which is the ideal role for him, anyway).

But, you laid it out for us. You prefer to build the team with a bunch of rotation level players instead of a really good one, because it's cheaper. Thanks.

[DPG21920]

Cam Johnson is a good player, but with the haul they got for Bridges, Nets won't let him go for cheap.
I expect them to ask for 2 FRPs. Too much for a role player.
But I can get behind that one, reasonable choice.

Jerami Grant is a tank commander. He went from Nuggets to Pistons for more or less the same money because he wanted a bigger role.
One of those main character syndrome players. He's a poor rebounder for his size and not much better defender than Markkanen, while being a tier worse scorer.
Yeah, he wouldn't cost much, but he's got 132/4 left on his deal, already turned 30. That contract has a good chance of becoming a negative asset.

I also want Fontecchio. I think Spurs are in the running if they don't get Markkanen.
I'd try for him even if we get Markkanen.



Why wouldn't he be able to be top2 in usage?
He's a better self-creator than Klay was. Didn't stop Klay from being the second option on a championship roster.

Players that can score on high volume while keeping their efficency and not needing the ball are more valuable as second or third options than ball-pounders.

As I said, if Castle-Devin-Wemby turn out to be Jrue-Middleton-Giannis, Lauri would be a perfect Brook, just a way better shooter.

Brook plays defense. Lauri doesnt. The price yall are talking about paying Lauri needs to be wayyyyyyy more than Brook Lopez. Beyond that, it’s the fact that hes not an initiator or self creator like the other true star wings/PF’s that cost what yall are talking about that prevents him from being 2nd in usage.

Vassell is a much better self creator and passer and will have the ball more than Lauri. Lauri relies a lot of being assisted - that caps his usage on a team with 2 guys clearly ahead of him (which UTA didnt have)

[DPG21920]

Cam Johnson is a good player, but with the haul they got for Bridges, Nets won't let him go for cheap.
I expect them to ask for 2 FRPs. Too much for a role player.
But I can get behind that one, reasonable choice.

Jerami Grant is a tank commander. He went from Nuggets to Pistons for more or less the same money because he wanted a bigger role.
One of those main character syndrome players. He's a poor rebounder for his size and not much better defender than Markkanen, while being a tier worse scorer.
Yeah, he wouldn't cost much, but he's got 132/4 left on his deal, already turned 30. That contract has a good chance of becoming a negative asset.

I also want Fontecchio. I think Spurs are in the running if they don't get Markkanen.
I'd try for him even if we get Markkanen.



Why wouldn't he be able to be top2 in usage?
He's a better self-creator than Klay was. Didn't stop Klay from being the second option on a championship roster.

Players that can score on high volume while keeping their efficency and not needing the ball are more valuable as second or third options than ball-pounders.

As I said, if Castle-Devin-Wemby turn out to be Jrue-Middleton-Giannis, Lauri would be a perfect Brook, just a way better shooter.

Klay could handle the ball in a pinch and defend at a high level. Yes, they both are great off ball movement shooters and while Klay was not a high end self creator, I think he was a bit better than Lauri is. Im not saying you cant win with Lauri but Klay was able to be who he is in large part because he didnt command a bunch of assets to obtain.

Thats my issue with Lauri. If it was just paying him a max as a FA? ya. No issues. ITs the cost alongside his issues that make it prohibitive IMO

[scott]

I dont think people on ST who say “pay 5 firsts! And Keldon or Sochan” are indicative of how many value Lauri. I think most would agree with my by the %s tbh…I like Lauri, hes worth going for but hes not worth trading 4+ firsts + good young player(s) for in light of his skillset, his role if he were on the spurs alongside the opportunity cost of those picks/players.

I dont think this is controversial either even with some guys valuing him differently.

I love how I get asked to “name names” despite all the pro “give up the farm for Lauri” guys not doing any of the work I asked (i.e. actually doing the work that I have and comparing Lauri to the other 5-10 best guys at SF/PF and their self creation rates, assisted basket %, offensive hub FT rates, defensive impact etc..) vs just loving his name?

On top of ignoring that “name the names” misses the context of most of us thinking that will come via the draft and you just want me to list all the draft prospects in the next 2-3 drafts?

You yourself have thrown out 3 FRPs + Keldon for Lauri, so it's one extra FRP that is the deal breaker for you? Don't want to lose that chance to get Blake Wesley?

I'm not sure wtf else you're talking about with the rest of your post - because that's not what I said to you. You gave your names. Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, Simone Fonteccio. Thanks. Your approach to team building is understood now. I don't agree with it, but who cares? That's your approach, my approach is different. Thanks for explaining yours.

[z0sa]

People talk about LM D like it's a vacuum and his team didn't suck last year. He will have WEMBY next to him. Wemby, like Duncan and Robinson before him, changes the floor of every player defensively who plays next to him. He can't carry through mistakes, but Lauri isn't the type of guy who makes a bunch of mistakes/doesn't try on D. He'll successfully funnel to Wemby like everyone else and will at least have a hand up on shooters or cutters. He's not a playmaker but you can't get everything you want. Only we have Wemby who can genuinely carry on both ends in terms of actual playmaking.

[DPG21920]

It's the opposite side of the coin as how you're so thirsty to get bargains that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Also, Lauri would be our second option, not our third. Devin would be our third option (which is the ideal role for him, anyway).

But, you laid it out for us. You prefer to build the team with a bunch of rotation level players instead of a really good one, because it's cheaper. Thanks.

Highly, highly disagree Lauri would be our 2nd option. Devin will have the ball more than him after Wemby.

[DPG21920]

This strawman of “oh you want to build a worse team because it’s cheaper” is beyond silly. Just because someone may be a better player doesnt mean they are worth infinitely more or even that they are worth anyting more in context of building a sustainable winner.

We dont have to win this next season. Get that out of your heads. We have to improve. There’s a difference.

[DPG21920]

You yourself have thrown out 3 FRPs + Keldon for Lauri, so it's one extra FRP that is the deal breaker for you? Don't want to lose that chance to get Blake Wesley?

I'm not sure wtf else you're talking about with the rest of your post - because that's not what I said to you. You gave your names. Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, Simone Fonteccio. Thanks. Your approach to team building is understood now. I don't agree with it, but who cares? That's your approach, my approach is different. Thanks for explaining yours.

Yes. It is a breaker especially factoring in what picks. Beyond that my 3 pick scenario was one to extend an olive branch on what I would consider an OK overpay; not my actual preference.

[RC_Drunkford]

Lmao I did exactly what was asked of me. I was told it’s completely hypothetical so I gave my hypothetical targets. Why are you mad I did exactly what was asked of me?

Cam Johnson completely realistic target. Jerami Grant. Simone Fontecchio. Several examples.

wasting a first on Cam Johnson who's a role player averaging 12 PPG is actually dumber than trading 3-4 picks for an All-Star in Markkanen who averages 23 PPG. Those are the players you give up assets for, not some regular rotation guy who you can easily sign in free agency.

[LeBowen]

Brook plays defense.

Brook is a great rim protector, but painfully slow and a liability in any kind of perimeter situation.

Lauri doesnt.

Says who?
You can say that Trae doesn't play defense. Or Luka.
Lauri definitely does. He's not great at it, but he's not a liability in a good scheme.

Not many teams have two frontcourt players who are both legit scoring options.
Lauri could easily guard almost every second frontcourt option.
He could also guard every stretch big, allowing us to keep Wemby in the paint.

He'd also be effective against teams like Dallas.
How did Celtics stop all the lobs? They put Tatum on Lively/Gafford because they have no post moves and had KP/Horford as help defenders.
Lauri could do that.

The price yall are talking about paying Lauri needs to be wayyyyyyy more than Brook Lopez.

Because Brook Lopez is almost a decade older.

Beyond that, it’s the fact that hes not an initiator or self creator like the other true star wings/PF’s that cost what yall are talking about that prevents him from being 2nd in usage.

You can be the initiator off the ball. Great shooters are just that. Would you say Steph isn't an initiator because most of his actions start off the ball?
Elite shooters initiate just by moving. You can't ignore someone like Lauri moving on the perimeter or even cutting if he's shooting 40% on 8 attempts from deep?
In combination with Wemby, it's impossible to guard.

I already said for example Siakam is a better first option than Lauri. But what do we need? More ball-pounders who aren't reliable shooters or a flamethrower who shifts the entire defense with just his presence?
Teams with limited bigs usually want wing creators. We have our wing creator at C. How many wing creators Nuggets, Kings or Heat have with their passing bigs?
You don't want too many creators, someone needs to be elite off the ball.
Celtics also play their best basketball with KP, who's role on offense is as close as it gets to what Lauri would do.
He doesn't have any self-creation skills other than shooting over people in mismatches.

Vassell is a much better self creator and passer and will have the ball more than Lauri. Lauri relies a lot of being assisted - that caps his usage on a team with 2 guys clearly ahead of him (which UTA didnt have)

Again, were players like Klay or Ray not second options, then?

[z0sa]

Highly, highly disagree Lauri would be our 2nd option. Devin will have the ball more than him after Wemby.

When will CP3 and Castle have the ball, then? You really want more of Pop acting like Vassell is Manu 2.0 when he's clearly not?

You have a guy in CP3 for sure and probably Castle after a season or two who will be that guy. Vassell doesn't need to be dribbling around the perimeter trying to use multiple screens a la Manu. it's not his game and even if it was, it's not the best role for him. He needs wide open looks from 3 and playmaking off of those looks, IE secondary playmaking. He's not a baller in that regard, sorry - we had a whole season of it (or so) and we saw the results.

[scott]

Highly, highly disagree Lauri would be our 2nd option. Devin will have the ball more than him after Wemby.

I agree Devin will have the ball more, but that doesn't make him the second option. CP3 will have the ball more than both of them. He'll also not be the second option. USG% is one of the most misunderstood stats around. People think it is an indicator of how much a player has the ball in his hands, but it's not.

This strawman of “oh you want to build a worse team because it’s cheaper” is beyond silly. Just because someone may be a better player doesnt mean they are worth infinitely more or even that they are worth anyting more in context of building a sustainable winner.

We dont have to win this next season. Get that out of your heads. We have to improve. There’s a difference.

The "on you want to build a worse team because its cheaper" isn't a strawman, it's the culmination of reading your posts (which I enjoy and value, btw) over the years. You want to win every deal. That sounds nice in isolation, but in the ulative it's suboptimal.

Agreed 100% we don't have to win next season. Improvement is good. But some types of improvement are more valuable than others in the long run. If we improve to a 35-win team because we signed CP3 and DDR... that is improvement, but what value does it really present? I'd rather win 28 games focused on the youth (with some vet leadership, like a CP3) than win 35 games on the back of CP3 and DDR. Ideally, I'd like to see this team improved to the point where we are AT LEAST in the hunt for a play-in spot so that Year 2 Wemby (along with Devin and Castle) can get experience playing in high-stakes games together. If we added Lauri, I think we could be a Top6 team in the West. Now, I don't think we make it past the 2nd round (at best), but I want those guys to get that experience. We aren't going to make the leap from high lottery to an NBA le. We have to get the experience of playoff failure. Even Timmy, who won the chip in his 2nd year, got that experience of the bitter taste of playoff defeat in his rookie year. That's important. Wemby needs to feel that, and quickly, because I think he's good enough to take a team to the le by year 3 or 4. He is that special.

[RC_Drunkford]

Markkanen: blocks Ja Morant twice in the pick & roll, blocks KAT out of a post up, forces Devin Booker to shoot an airball, guards Haliburton on the perimeter and AD inside



Spurstalk: "MaRkKaNeN dOeSn'T pLaY dEfEnSe"