Summer League Grades: Spurs vs. Hawks - July 14, 2024

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/spurs-hawk...ague-grades-5/

I know it's meaningless summer league but Stephon Castle previously looked a lot better than whatever that was out of Risacher, tbh.

[JPB]

https://www.spurstalk.com/spurs-hawk...ague-grades-5/

I know it's meaningless summer league but Stephon Castle previously looked a lot better than whatever that was out of Risacher, tbh.

No, he didn't, that's pure cognitive dissonance. Castle had a bad summer league, shooting 37% overall and 25% on 3. That's very bad. It somehow look that he's standing out because he looks a bit more physical than the other bunch skinny rookies around, whch won't be the case in the NBA... As Barkley said, BB is not just about running and jumping, or being "active". Ask non spurs fans, and no one is impressed buy Castle so far.

then, I'll just copy and past what I posted in another thread

Risacher is actually a somehow decent (but also not that great) summer league so far dropping 17pts (7/16, 3/9 on 3, 5rbs, 2blk, 1 steal the game before) getting nice reiviews for his high BBIQ, lengh and mobility... Many Hawks fans I'm reading are actually seeing the potential and rather excited.

Not to mention Risacher's never been sold as a playmaker or 30pt a night guy. Summer league is not really made for that kind of players... He's coming from a pro team with vet PGs. Playing in disorganised BB, among wannabees or rookies trying to assert themselves in messy games isn't the best configuration for him to let his high BBIQ speak... He'll be more comfortable with a real NBA PG and environment, living off of real playmakers in organised BB.

I' still take him everyday over Castle. I see the potential as a 3&D, versatile elite role player. I'm still not sure what Castle role or position even is tbh (just like Sochan) He's not a real PG and not a shooter. that's another young, suposedly versatile prospect who is actually not really elite at anything ...

[Ice009]

How are you not seeing a PG from Castle? Yeah, his shot doesn't look the best/consistent, but he's a very hard worker from the looks and sounds of it, so if anyone can improve their shot, I believe he can.

The PG stuff, sounds like a bit of hate there.

[JPB]

How are you not seeing a PG from Castle? Yeah, his shot doesn't look the best/consistent, but he's a very hard worker from the looks and sounds of it, so if anyone can improve their shot, I believe he can.

The PG stuff, sounds like a bit of hate there.

Being able to play the point in summer league doesn't make you a starting PG on a contender. He's not a natural nor elite at that position, nor a natural passer with great court vision, comparing to others PGs in the league... you guys are too easily impressed or set the bar much too low... It's not about being OK or good, but a GREAT PG.

Many people believed Sochan could play the point too when the "experiemnt" started because he somehow had playmaking skills... But that's the hardest position in the NBA... If spurs find a real natural PG in next year's draft or via trade, Castle won't be our starting point guard.

[LeBowen]

Since you've picked a really strange to hill to die on, there's no point in discussing Castle with you anymore.
I just can't wrap my head around your takes. Have you even watched full summer league games and not just his highlights?

[siraulo23]

it sucks, summer league is a lot less interesting now with Castle out the rest of the games

[JPB]

The PG stuff, sounds like a bit of hate there.

Since you've picked a really strange to hill to die on, there's no point in discussing Castle with you anymore.

I just can't wrap my head around your takes. Have you even watched full summer league games and not just his highlights?

Why would I hate on Castle? I'm a spurs fan, I hope he'll do good. Do I believe he'll be a bonifide star? No, but I'll happily say I was wrong if he does. I'm only judging what I'm seeing hic et nunc, not fantisizing.

But the takes I'm reading here about a kid who objectively didn't have a good summer league are just epic homerism and wishful thniking (I know, just like every year). "Russel Westbrook with skills", "a better Jimmy butler..."... we went from "I'll be happy if we can get an elite role player in this weak draft" to "Castle is the next big thing" after 3 mediocre summer outings. just because the kid can somehow play BB against mostly scrubs... You can put it any way you want, 37% shooting (25% on 3) doesn't keep you on an NBA court, even if he should improve that ofc (hopefully).

You want a more objective opinion? Read what other fanbases are saying. And guess what? There's barely any real chatter around Castle, or just to mention he can't shoot. No one is saying "Crap, we missed on Castle!". And there's barely any hawk fan regretting picking Risacher over him...

but we know how it works, would have the spurs picked Risacher, everyone would praise his BBIQ, versatiltiy, court vision and be happy we didn't get that Castle guy who can't shoot instead. Same for Sheppard who showed much more interesting things than Castle.

Time will tell, but yeah, the overration is glorious probably because spurs despearatly need that seconsd star.

[LeBowen]

I'm only judging what I'm seeing hic et nunc, not fantisizing.

Then you're not seeing things very well.
His point guards skills and PNR ballhandling are way above every expectation and he's definitely going to be a natural point guard.
His passing is also great for a kid his age. Has all the right reads and instincts.
As we're seeing in the playoffs, the biggest quality a player can have other than physical talents (which Castle has) is playing at their own pace and having high IQ.

But the takes I'm reading here about a kid who objectively didn't have a good summer league

Why didn't he have a great summer league? Because of shooting splits?

"Russel Westbrook with skills"

You keep repeating this and noone ever said it, at least not on this forum.
He couldn't be any further away from Russ' playstyle.

"a better Jimmy butler..."

Noone said this, either.
Jimmy was just mentioned because Castle's methodical, slow style of dribbling into the paint with a defender on his back is similar to what Jimmy does.
And Jimmy was also mentioned when someone asked about perimeter all-NBA players who don't have a reliable shot.

"Castle is the next big thing"

I told you already, there are about 5 guards in the entire league who are good enough to be primary ballhandlers while being all-NBA level defenders.
Way less common than being a great shooter and playmaker.

just because the kid can somehow play BB against mostly scrubs

I also have to repeat this one, because your entire post is just copy/pasting the same thing over the past few days.
We're high on his point guard skills and when your teammates are as bad as the opposition, it's hard to be a good point guard.
His passes have great timing and accuracy, they look seamless and not something he's doing just because those sets were practiced.
We've seen every kind of pass of him and most were on point. Even turnovers were the right passes to make, just lacked a bit of communication and execution.

37% shooting (25% on 3) doesn't keep you on an NBA court

You know what else doesn't keep you on NBA court in the playoffs? Being a bad defender.
Even if you're among the best shooters in the league.

You want a more objective opinion? Read what other fanbases are saying. And guess what? There's barely any real chatter around Castle, or just to mention he can't shoot. No one is saying "Crap, we missed on Castle!".

Sorry to burst your bubble, but not many NBA fans follow summer league, especially not if they're fans of teams without lottery picks.

How about this one:
https://old.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/c...ed_in_the_pnr/

And there's barely any hawk fan regretting picking Risacher over him...

Yeah, Hawks really needed another point guard after Dejounte fiasco.
It's all about the fit and need.
Not many teams in top10 needed a point guard.

but we know how it works, would have the spurs picked Risacher, everyone would praise his BBIQ, versatiltiy, court vision and be happy we didn't get that Castle guy who can't shoot instead.

What if I told you both can become good players?
Risacher didn't offer anything in terms of self-creation last night, as someone said, we got Risacher in Barnes.

Same for Sheppard who showed much more interesting things than Castle.

We'll see how those interesting things translate against the big boys who are going to hunt him on defense all game long and when he won't be able to rack up steals because of bad execution by the opposition.
Getting into the paint against actual NBA defenders when you lack size is also way harder.

Time will tell, but yeah, the overration is glorious probably because spurs despearatly need that seconsd star.

Your overreaction is also glorious because Sheppard's game wasn't much better than Castle's and Rockets have a way more functional roster.

We're overreacting because we expected a combo guard who's going to need to learn all the point guard nuances and tricks, but instead we got a 6'6 point guard with high IQ who plays like a veteran.
As I wrote, two-way point guards are extremely rare in today's league.

It's fine if you don't like Castle, we all have our preferences and concerns about his shot are valid, but you saying that he's not a point guard just makes you look like you either didn't watch the games or don't know what you're talking about.

[Ice009]

Being able to play the point in summer league doesn't make you a starting PG on a contender. He's not a natural nor elite at that position, nor a natural passer with great court vision, comparing to others PGs in the league... you guys are too easily impressed or set the bar much too low... It's not about being OK or good, but a GREAT PG.

Many people believed Sochan could play the point too when the "experiemnt" started because he somehow had playmaking skills... But that's the hardest position in the NBA... If spurs find a real natural PG in next year's draft or via trade, Castle won't be our starting point guard.

If you're going to bang on about this. How many games of his have you watched? You do know the system at UCONN wasn't built around him playing PG, but his college coach seems to have full confidence in him.

Tony Parker wasn't a great PG. I think Castle is already showing things TP didn't as far as vision and passing goes. TP was a great player, but I don't think he was the best PG. He could play PG, but was more of a scoring guard, not really a traditional PG (Pop sort of tried to balance it out and have him meet in the middle). Early on, it seems to me that the Spurs wanted to move TP to SG when they went after J Kidd. I don't think they're going to do that with Castle as I think they're already seeing him as a PG.

Just because Castle hasn't shot well, doesn't mean he hasn't show other good things out there that look very promising.

[Dejounte]

Will you guys stop paying attention to JPB? The guy is clearly doubling down on his bad takes. Giving Risacher a lot of room for error while giving Castle none. Then taking Hawks fans feedback on how well Risacher is playing while ignoring Spurs fans feedback on Castle. The guy might as well be a Hawks fan with how much he’s hugging Risacher’s nuts tbh.

The guy is more concerned about other people’s opinions on Castle than putting in any effort to correct his own. He wants you all to have the same opinion as him and will write endless paragraphs about it. It’s clear he’s spent zero minutes on actually watching Castle play. What we have here is a bonafide troll who doesn’t care about being wrong and has an inflated ego that will never admit he’s wrong.

[Uriel]

I'll admit, Risacher was #1 on my big board before the draft and I thought he was the perfect fit for the current roster. But after the Spurs went ahead and got Barnes and Castle showed off his playmaking skills, I've become much happier with the Castle pick.

I haven't seen enough of Risacher's play to make a judgment on who between him and Castle has had the better summer league so far. But I definitely don't agree with the notion that Castle has had a bad summer league, or that only Spurs fans have been impressed with his play. This tweet from Kevin O'Connor, for instance, shows him getting plaudits from the national media:

Again, this isn't a judgment of who between Castle and Risacher is better. But it is to say that I like what I've seen from Castle so far and I'm excited for his future.

[exstatic]

No, he didn't, that's pure cognitive dissonance. Castle had a bad summer league, shooting 37% overall and 25% on 3. That's very bad. It somehow look that he's standing out because he looks a bit more physical than the other bunch skinny rookies around, whch won't be the case in the NBA... As Barkley said, BB is not just about running and jumping, or being "active". Ask non spurs fans, and no one is impressed buy Castle so far.

then, I'll just copy and past what I posted in another thread

Risacher is actually a somehow decent (but also not that great) summer league so far dropping 17pts (7/16, 3/9 on 3, 5rbs, 2blk, 1 steal the game before) getting nice reiviews for his high BBIQ, lengh and mobility... Many Hawks fans I'm reading are actually seeing the potential and rather excited.

Not to mention Risacher's never been sold as a playmaker or 30pt a night guy. Summer league is not really made for that kind of players... He's coming from a pro team with vet PGs. Playing in disorganised BB, among wannabees or rookies trying to assert themselves in messy games isn't the best configuration for him to let his high BBIQ speak... He'll be more comfortable with a real NBA PG and environment, living off of real playmakers in organised BB.

I' still take him everyday over Castle. I see the potential as a 3&D, versatile elite role player. I'm still not sure what Castle role or position even is tbh (just like Sochan) He's not a real PG and not a shooter. that's another young, suposedly versatile prospect who is actually not really elite at anything ...

French Nationalism, at its finest.

[ginobilized]

Castle looks great to me, the nuances and micro-skills of his game are so strong, especially for a 19 yr old.
He'll raise the IQ of the team a bit just by himself. It will be wild to see the low-IQ guys (you know who) trying to get to their places and make better decisions.
CP3, HB, Wemby and Castle will be leading the way for them, hopefully, they can follow.

[Darkwaters]

Castle's shooting is about where we expected it to be. But with everything else he's better than advertised.

Now if we want to talk about prospects that are underwhelming we can have a conversation about Ingram and Cissoko. But Castle is not a party to that conversation.

[Mr. Body]

No, he didn't, that's pure cognitive dissonance. Castle had a bad summer league, shooting 37% overall and 25% on 3. That's very bad. It somehow look that he's standing out because he looks a bit more physical than the other bunch skinny rookies around, whch won't be the case in the NBA... As Barkley said, BB is not just about running and jumping, or being "active". Ask non spurs fans, and no one is impressed buy Castle so far.

then, I'll just copy and past what I posted in another thread

Risacher is actually a somehow decent (but also not that great) summer league so far dropping 17pts (7/16, 3/9 on 3, 5rbs, 2blk, 1 steal the game before) getting nice reiviews for his high BBIQ, lengh and mobility... Many Hawks fans I'm reading are actually seeing the potential and rather excited.

Not to mention Risacher's never been sold as a playmaker or 30pt a night guy. Summer league is not really made for that kind of players... He's coming from a pro team with vet PGs. Playing in disorganised BB, among wannabees or rookies trying to assert themselves in messy games isn't the best configuration for him to let his high BBIQ speak... He'll be more comfortable with a real NBA PG and environment, living off of real playmakers in organised BB.

I' still take him everyday over Castle. I see the potential as a 3&D, versatile elite role player. I'm still not sure what Castle role or position even is tbh (just like Sochan) He's not a real PG and not a shooter. that's another young, suposedly versatile prospect who is actually not really elite at anything ...

Man, I don't know how you can't see the difference between these two players right now. It's like night and day.

[Mr. Body]

The whiners will hate it, but this is a well-coached team. Trevino's done very well.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

French Nationalism, at its finest.

You likely found the reason behind. Everyone watched castle can see he has great PG skills except a French Nationalist.

[onechance87]

Castle's shooting is about where we expected it to be. But with everything else he's better than advertised.

Now if we want to talk about prospects that are underwhelming we can have a conversation about Ingram and Cissoko. But Castle is not a party to that conversation.

well they are late second round picks.Tho i believe we could of got some better player then ingram like spencer and alexander.But ingram
does play hard,But does nothing really special just like sidy.

[exstatic]

well they are late second round picks.Tho i believe we could of got some better player then ingram like spencer and alexander.But ingram
does play hard,But does nothing really special just like sidy.

Our second SRP has to be someone who agrees to a 2 way, because we’ll have a full 15 man roster.

[onechance87]

Our second SRP has to be someone who agrees to a 2 way, because we’ll have a full 15 man roster.

spencer and alexander are on two way contracts rn.Spurs just didnt want them.

[JPB]

What this team and Wemby needs around him, to space the floor and so he's not triple teammed is (braeking news!) shooters, which everyone agreed during the year and before the draft. This team needs shooting all around Vic.We already have Sochan who can't shoot, adding another chucker in the SL wouldn't do it. Teams would pack the paint.

If Castle can't knock his shots, and notably his 3s, his value massively drops around Vic. Everyone can make cuts or knock a FT line shot here or there. , Tre was pretty decent at that with Wemby. That's why I also beleve spurs could have been after Sheppard, which could have been great for this team. probably not a superstar but a great complementary player. the finding their PG next year.

Now let's hope Castle can "fix" his shot, and why not. But factually, spurs drafted another guard/player who can't shoot in hope he'll learned how to.

[SpursBills]

How well someone shoots in summer league isn't the end-all, be-all, the reason people are excited about both Castle and Sheppard's performances in summer league is that they are showing parts of their game that defy what their doubters claimed and increases their star equity.

Castle's detractors claimed that he was a non-shooting wing with average size who had a high chance of not developing in the league. But he showed the ability to be a true point guard and decision making chops far and above that of a connective wing. His jump shot is still in doubt, but even that looked slightly better than the timid shooting that we saw at times at UConn last year. The list of guys his size with his poise and passing a en in the league is a thimbleful, making his upside unique.

Sheppard's detractors claimed that he was a 6'1" shooting guard who would max out as a bench shooter. But he clearly showed ability to be a primary initiating point guard as well as a assortment of floaters and an advanced in-between game that allows him to leverage his touch and become a high level creator. This unlocks his passing vision, which many of his detractors also doubted as well as his advance BBIQ. The list of guys with his shooting touch and feel for the game primary consists of stars in the league, which again makes his upside unique.

Risacher didn't show me much more than what I already knew in the games that he watched, his handles were shaky at best, and his value continues to be leveraged based purely on his shot. Maybe he shows more once he gets started, but unlike the above two players he didn't necessarily show anything that defied what his critics were claiming which is why people are more excited about Castle and Sheppard.

In my last big board, I had Sheppard in his own tier at 1, Castle in his own tier at 2, and everybody else below them. Before the draft, I thought that Sheppard would more likely be a good player, while Castle had the higher potential to be a great one if he developed properly. I'm still sticking by that assessment and comparison, but I've leveled up the caliber of players that both Sheppard and Castle can develop into as both have shown things beyond what their respective detractors claimed.

[MannyIsGod]

No, he didn't, that's pure cognitive dissonance. Castle had a bad summer league, shooting 37% overall and 25% on 3. That's very bad. It somehow look that he's standing out because he looks a bit more physical than the other bunch skinny rookies around, whch won't be the case in the NBA... As Barkley said, BB is not just about running and jumping, or being "active". Ask non spurs fans, and no one is impressed buy Castle so far.

then, I'll just copy and past what I posted in another thread

Risacher is actually a somehow decent (but also not that great) summer league so far dropping 17pts (7/16, 3/9 on 3, 5rbs, 2blk, 1 steal the game before) getting nice reiviews for his high BBIQ, lengh and mobility... Many Hawks fans I'm reading are actually seeing the potential and rather excited.

Not to mention Risacher's never been sold as a playmaker or 30pt a night guy. Summer league is not really made for that kind of players... He's coming from a pro team with vet PGs. Playing in disorganised BB, among wannabees or rookies trying to assert themselves in messy games isn't the best configuration for him to let his high BBIQ speak... He'll be more comfortable with a real NBA PG and environment, living off of real playmakers in organised BB.

I' still take him everyday over Castle. I see the potential as a 3&D, versatile elite role player. I'm still not sure what Castle role or position even is tbh (just like Sochan) He's not a real PG and not a shooter. that's another young, suposedly versatile prospect who is actually not really elite at anything ...

This is nonsense. I've seen a LOT of excitement over Castle from general NBA types.

[Darkwaters]

Our second SRP has to be someone who agrees to a 2 way, because we’ll have a full 15 man roster.

And that's a fair point. And it's possible Ingram was the best player they were both willing to draft and was willing to take a 2 way.

That doesn't change the fact that he's been underwhelming.

Cissoko was drafted last season though knowing full well he'd have to come over immediately because of his buyout. It's strange that the Spurs traded away the #33 but then kept the #44 pick and took a guy they had to put on the main club and not a 2-way.

[JPB]

How well someone shoots in summer league isn't the end-all, be-all, the reason people are excited about both Castle and Sheppard's performances in summer league is that they are showing parts of their game that defy what their doubters claimed and increases their star equity.

Castle's number one red flag was shooting and summer league games (for what they're worth) confirmed it.

Castle's detractors claimed that he was a non-shooting wing with average size who had a high chance of not developing in the league. But he showed the ability to be a true point guard and decision making chops far and above that of a connective wing.

he didn't show anything that indicates he could be an elite/top PG in the NBA, along the SGAs, Brunsons or Maxeys of the wordl, which is what this team needs. Again, I believe you guys are setting the bar too low. Same reasoning that lead to Sochan at PG.

His jump shot is still in doubt, but even that looked slightly better than the timid shooting that we saw at times at UConn last year. The list of guys his size with his poise and passing a en in the league is a thimbleful, making his upside unique.

that's why I mean by epic homerism. Most people had never heatd about the guy 4 months and no one even before the draft was presenting him like you do or giving hi mthat ceiling... But Spurs draft him, the bam! and after 3 meh summer leagues games, he's "one in a thimbful" with a "unique upside"... No one here would say that of him if another team drafted him.