Jeremy Sochan: Future Elite Role Player or Future Star?

[DAF86]

I guess this thread could make sense in a World where the PG experiment worked and Sochan became a triple-double threat with elite positional size ala Ben Simmons, but man it's funny to read it now.

I never believed in the Sochan at PG thing, so, yeah, I never saw Jeremy with a star ceiling, tbh.

[The Truth #6]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

[Big Empty]

Ill judge after 2 more seasons, he’s barely 20/21 years old, alot of time to work on his game & mechanics. Once u’ve been in the nba 4/5 years ur pretty close to you’re peak.

[jjspur]

Good NBA players do better in the NBA than in college, somewhere around 25-50 % better. Really good NBA players even more than that, especially if they eventually become a main focus of the team. Sochan was not the focus at Baylor but merely a cog to make the team better, much like he does for the spurs. Does he play decent defense ..yes. Does he score a lot of points .. no, but he does have his moments sometimes. Does he rebound well ..yes he does. All this means is that we drafted an average player and not necessarily a star- for now. I'd give him one more season. At that point we'll know if we have an average joe or someone destined for better things. He isn't a flop by any means, but one more season should tell us in what direction he's going.

Getting drafted in the lottery doesn't mean anything other than some team liked your play more than another player. Something to think about when offering him his next contract if he makes it that far.

[scott]

Does he rebound well ..yes he does.

Does he? This is one of the areas I've actually been most disappointed in.

[tonight...you]

Are you really this pathetic and is your life really this sad?
Especially after I pointed out actual arguments in Castle topic for like dozenth time which you refused to reply to?
Instead you ghosted from there and went on hours upon hours of searching to find a bad take of mine. All the way up to November 2022.
You're a degenerate, tbh. Like I'm legit concerned that you need a psychological diagnosis.



His defense was ridiculous for a rookie, but hasn't improved much since. Still great, but Pop ruined him with point guard assignments where he had no chance in most schemes.
Still has the potential to be one of the best (wing/perimeter) defenders in the league.



And he proved he can't run the point.
Playmaking stagnated, didn't improve much.



That's a bad one, but Chet was redshirted and that's a weak class.
Still arguably a top5 pick from players picked in the lottery and who did well early on.



I'll never change my take on this. Still true, name someone who was a bad perimeter defender and developed into an elite one?
Obviously doesn't mean everyone lacking offensive game will develop it.

Jeremy's entire problem is that he's more or less the same player he was as a rookie. Didn't improve anything other than his FT form.
And a lot of it is on Pop.
Sometimes with fundamentally flawed players who simply must develop certain aspects of the game, you don't let them be themselves, but you need to force them to do it.
That's why Castle's awful 3pt percentages are way better than Jeremy straight up not shooting unless he really has to.

He showed great promise from the first game, but didn't develop. Who's to blame, you decide, but he still has time.
Other than draft position prediction, my post isn't that outrageously bad.

As for ghosting me in Castle's topic after getting embarrassed over and over again by many users, you really shouldn't have done this.
If this is the road you decided to take, better be prepared for me to pull all the you spew in your 5000 posts when I get the time.
I actually thought you're a good poster, but you're another one from wide assortiment of degenerates who loves playing dumb when things don't go his way.
ing pussy, actually one of the biggest ones I've seen in my lifetime on the internet.

But since you're in for war, you picked the wrong guy to take on.

[spursparker9]

[JPB]

Are you really this pathetic and is your life really this sad?
Especially after I pointed out actual arguments in Castle topic for like dozenth time which you refused to reply to?
Instead you ghosted from there and went on hours upon hours of searching to find a bad take of mine. All the way up to November 2022.
You're a degenerate, tbh. Like I'm legit concerned that you need a psychological diagnosis.



His defense was ridiculous for a rookie, but hasn't improved much since. Still great, but Pop ruined him with point guard assignments where he had no chance in most schemes.
Still has the potential to be one of the best (wing/perimeter) defenders in the league.



And he proved he can't run the point.
Playmaking stagnated, didn't improve much.



That's a bad one, but Chet was redshirted and that's a weak class.
Still arguably a top5 pick from players picked in the lottery and who did well early on.



I'll never change my take on this. Still true, name someone who was a bad perimeter defender and developed into an elite one?
Obviously doesn't mean everyone lacking offensive game will develop it.

Jeremy's entire problem is that he's more or less the same player he was as a rookie. Didn't improve anything other than his FT form.
And a lot of it is on Pop.
Sometimes with fundamentally flawed players who simply must develop certain aspects of the game, you don't let them be themselves, but you need to force them to do it.
That's why Castle's awful 3pt percentages are way better than Jeremy straight up not shooting unless he really has to.

He showed great promise from the first game, but didn't develop. Who's to blame, you decide, but he still has time.
Other than draft position prediction, my post isn't that outrageously bad.

As for ghosting me in Castle's topic after getting embarrassed over and over again by many users, you really shouldn't have done this.
If this is the road you decided to take, better be prepared for me to pull all the you spew in your 5000 posts when I get the time.
I actually thought you're a good poster, but you're another one from wide assortiment of degenerates who loves playing dumb when things don't go his way.
ing pussy, actually one of the biggest ones I've seen in my lifetime on the internet.

But since you're in for war, you picked the wrong guy to take on.

First, get you nerves and control back, man. No need to go crazy like that for basketball takes.

Then for the sake of it, you're THE one, who started to "attack", patronize and insult me (awful, "stop embarassing yourself") just because you visibly viscerally couldn't stand somebody disagreed with your opinion about Castle in a freaking BB forum where people share opinions...

So i believe it's fair I playfully exposed you a little and remind everyone we should always be wary before overracting about our picks (which is part of the argument). I honestly don't know why you got so mad and took it so furiously that someone else wants to wait and see more of him before being so defiinitve about his ceiling, then also believe his shooting will define who he is...

But one last time, I guess:

- My arguments: 2 summer leagues is not enough to judge, but he can't shoot now and developing as shoot and finding a role will be important for Castle to really have a big impact.

- Yours argument: shooting isn't the point, he shot terribly there but did great in 2 godam summer league games otherwise. Zero doubts, future star! Never mind if I super confidently said the same about Sochan 2 years ago when we drafted him! It's different this time! Stop embarassing yourself for thinking shooting will matter for him!

I'll let eveybody judge.

As I told you, I enjoyed reading you, but since it really got too freaky, passionate, and personal for my taste (seriously, relax mate. It's just BB), I'm the one who's gonna block you for a month or so, so we let it cool down a bit.

[JPB]

LeBowen, I’ll leave you with a quote from Mark Twain.



Don’t let him waste your time. You won’t convince him of anything. He’ll just hare off in another direction, and waste more of your time. It’s like the movie War Games, when Joshua had his realization. The best move is not to play the game.

I really don't like to go that way but since you entered the weirdness:

You're probalby THE poster other members make the most fun of, man, for the way you're always so arrogantly and confidently say stuff that proves wrong 99% of time, then still so confidently arrogantly say exactly the opposite, like you knew it all along, when you realize you were wrong... Like no one noticed

Oh, and for that giant stick you seem to have in your ass.

You guys really need to relax and learn humility.

[LeBowen]

First, get you nerves and control back, man. No need to go crazy like that for basketball takes.

It's not about basketball, it's about you being a degenerate.
It wasn't just me, it was a few of us who kept pointing things over and over again, showing long videos from respectable analysts about Castle's upside and you kept dismissing everyone over and over and over again...only to reappear a few days later with exact same rethoric, without ever disputing any of our arguments.

Of course I'll tell you that you're embarrassing yourself when I spend time and effort on a post, only for you to ghost.
Then I stopped quoting you, just ignored like half a dozen more "time to on Castle with whataboutism" posts.
And you quote me again. And again you don't provide any counter-arguments.
Instead, you waste a lot of time to find a bad take of mine that's a year and a half old and then you start being patronizing.
And you go back to comparing Castle and Sochan.

If you didn't put time in that, whatever, just another annoying troll.
But since you invested time into ting on me personally instead of disputing any of my arguments after I almost begged you to do it, you crossed the line.
I'm a very patient person nowdays, but if you cross the line, it's over.

And even in this last post, you're completely twisting not just mine, but everyone's optimistic take and strawmanning us.
Who the ever wrote he's a guranteed future star?

LeBowen: Posts about Castle's upside, posts videos and stats, never says he's a guranteed star.
JPB: He's and a couple of SL games won't change my opinion that he's not a point guard.
LeBown: Posts some more videos, one of them like half an hour long analysis of just his passing and lead guard play.
JPB: Here's what you said about Sochan two years ago and that's my entire argument against Castle.

You got a couple more days of free reign, but I'm fully committed to wasting some hours during the weekend to find all the takes you posted over the years and you better be sure I'll remind you of them every single damn time you post.
Just because you're a s bag who's using personal attacks instead of replying to arguments. Better use the embarrassment-free time you have left in here to the full extent. Once I come for you, it's over.

[poopbox]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

[Trueblood]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

[exstatic]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitc . None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

[The Truth #6]

A quote from a few preeminent military intellectuals of our time.

Colonel Trautman: "You've done enough damage. This mission is over."

Rambo: "They drew first blood, not me!.'

[The Truth #6]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

A disappointment, but not necessarily a waste. If the team continues to improve and he does as well, I could totally see him being the 5th starter on a championship team. He would have to be sort of the defensive menace, glue guy.

[The Truth #6]

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

I think it is widely considered a failure for his time playing point guard. I didn't suggest or mean to suggest that I thought it was going to be permanent either. I suppose to respond to your point about Jeremy learning new skills, I agree that would be a good goal, but they went too fast. I think that's a reasonable way to look at it.

[BacktoBasics]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

There are other things in basketball than offensive option.

[BacktoBasics]

A disappointment, but not necessarily a waste. If the team continues to improve and he does as well, I could totally see him being the 5th starter on a championship team. He would have to be sort of the defensive menace, glue guy.

With this upcoming season we’ll see a more complete roster with less experimentation. I think that’ll free up Sochan to be what he’s supposed to be.

This will be a good season to make decisions on his future here.

[Kevin]

There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitc . None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

This is why draft picks are overrated in general outside the top 5. Gotta cash them for a proven player.

[exstatic]

This is why draft picks are overrated in general outside the top 5. Gotta cash them for a proven player.

Aaron Gordon wound up being a 4/5 option on a champion team, and he was drafted #4 overall. According to your logic, we should just trade a 4 overall, and cash out.

Draft picks are the only chance we have to get stars, the kind of players who are never on the market for any kind of picks because they are forcing their way to a specific team. I like Markannen,but we shouldn’t throw any ATL picks into the pot.

[jjspur]

He's the 2nd best rebounder on the team and improved a little bit from his first year. Does he warrant another year, of course he does, a huge or max contract - of course not. Hopefully he improves even more this year and then he and the spurs can talk about money. Some players do real well their 3rd and 4th years and get handsomely rewarded, some do average and still get rewarded a bit, while others still look lost, don't do crap and then get kicked to the curb or the G-League. Its up to him which path he wants to take.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Aaron Gordon wound up being a 4/5 option on a champion team, and he was drafted #4 overall. According to your logic, we should just trade a 4 overall, and cash out.

Draft picks are the only chance we have to get stars, the kind of players who are never on the market for any kind of picks because they are forcing their way to a specific team. I like Markannen,but we shouldn’t throw any ATL picks into the pot.

You got it!

[poopbox]

There are other things in basketball than offensive option.

You are right. Jeremy is pretty bad at those things as well.

[poopbox]

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

The question I would have is...why would anybody care about Sochan passing efficiency and turnover rate, because he should never have the ball in his hands enough or long enough for that to matter.

I viewed it as a pure tank move the first time...the second time though I am not so sure because all it did was hurt all the other players on the team and destroy Sochan's confidence.

[poopbox]

There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitc . None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

Rui helped a team get to the conference finals. I think Deni is just an overall better player than Sochan, and Mitc helped the Kings make the playoffs for the first time in a 1000 years. I also thnink Mitc is a better player than Sochan.

That's how bad Sochan is. You pointed out 3 guys who you think haven't done much at the #9 picks and 2 of the 3 have done more than Sochan and the 3rd guy, Deni, is arguably just a flat out better player.