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Well Achilles is a Kobe fan. Even goes as far as calling Timmy "Jim", that lame laker fan nickname, when people dare talk about his precious Kobe Bryant
I don't fault any Spurs fans for thinking Duncan is better than LeBron but yeah let's not act like LeBron is "lesoft" or that he didn't earn the honors. Unlike Kobe Bryant, who was overrated and became even moreso after his unfortunate death, I don't think it's ridiculous to consider LeBron better than Timmy. John B is just being his usual homer self.
Well Achilles is a Kobe fan. Even goes as far as calling Timmy "Jim", that lame laker fan nickname, when people dare talk about his precious Kobe Bryant
Spurs fans just need to accept the media will prefer guys like Kobe/Lebron over Tim. Thankfully Wemby actually has a personality and isn't boring so he should get the flowers he deserves.
It’s hard to argue stats when talking about Tim Duncan, and vastly underrate his greatness. Spurs fans should know better Spurs egalitarian way of spreading points, assists, etc to get the W, winning 50+ wins every year, not missing playoffs, with mainly role players. So don’t compare stats. They didn’t even give Timmy DPOY despite being in the All-Defensive for 30 years. Come on man. I would give LeBron more credit had he stayed with Cleveland and built it up, like Nowitzky did. Easier to win games if you have the Banana Boat and pad them stats, just saying.
Duncan has more MVP's, more finals MVP's, more rings as the best player on his team. A better VORP, OBPM, win share % and pretty much any other signficant stat you want to consider. He also never missed the playoffs in his prime, or at any other time for that matter.
So no, unless you are some kind of dumb Kobe sniffing Stan, there isn't a single credible argument to have Kobe over Duncan.
Shaq is the only laker who gets underrated, and the only reason is kobe. You look at players like magic, Kareem, semi stars like Goodrich, scott and worthy, and even role players like cooper, rambis and mychael Thompson and they are consistently overrated by media and thus fans.
While shaq just gets underrated like crazy and is skipping year over year. There isn’t a single reason shaq would rank below kobe. The only thing people throw out is the five rings argument as if it wasn’t shaq who won all three fmvps, an mvp, led the lakers in almost all advanced stats during that time.
Did I just step into a time machine and get transported back to 2012?
I’m pretty much as high on Duncan as any somewhat reasonable person could be; I only have LeBron/MJ/Kareem ahead of him. But arguing Duncan over LeBron is absolutely insane Spurs homerism mixed with LeBron hatred
Lebron james has a loosing record in the finals. 6 losses out of 10 appearances to be exact.
The one thing I’ve held against LeBron is that he always took the easy path. Staying in the Eastern Conference for most of his career. Forming super teams when he couldn’t get the job done himself.Did I just step into a time machine and get transported back to 2012?
I’m pretty much as high on Duncan as any somewhat reasonable person could be; I only have LeBron/MJ/Kareem ahead of him. But arguing Duncan over LeBron is absolutely insane Spurs homerism mixed with LeBron hatred
Also, the flopping. Everyone es at the officials, but I never remember MJ falling down like he’d been shot because someone brushed against his jersey.
The idea of KG being in the same tier as Duncan is ridiculous, and shows how much narratives drive this .
Look, if you dislike LeBron that’s one thing. I’m not saying he has to be everyone’s favorite player. But denying his greatness or acting like he’s not indisputably a top 2 player of all-time is just going into hater territory IMO. I personally have a hard time even seeing the argument for MJ over him at this point.
1999 ring isn’t included in this so they don’t have the same amount of rings. He also has the same amount of finals mvps in the 21st century. It’s not talking about career. It’s talking about from 2000- on. And Kobe has more all nba 1st teams, more finals appearances, more points, more rings, one less mvp and same finals mvp. They are in the same tier for the century.
Kobe missed the playoffs once and Duncan lost to the 8th seed as the 1 seed. Those cancel each other out tbh
Your post is one giant contradiction. You say it’s easier to win with the Banana Boat people yet also say it’s easier to pad stats with them as well? I also bet you think Ginobili is better than Wade/Kyrie and TP is better than Bosh/Love…
Lebron led his teams in points and assists and was second in rebounds. And he played with other HOFers. That’s actually harder to do when you have better players next to you. Dude took a team with Booby Gibson to the finals in 07 and then took a team with hurt midget Isiah Thomas as the PG another time.
You can’t say it’s not about stats with Duncan it’s about winning and then dismiss all the winning that Lebron did. Like somehow winning 50 games a year is more impressive than going to 10 NBA finals. And the reason you can’t compare stats is bc Duncan isn’t good enough to compare stats. I love Tim, but even with stat padding, he wouldn’t be giving you 28, 7, and 7 at age 40.
And loosing 6 out of those 10 finals.
See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:
2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.
2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.
2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring
2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)
2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.
2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.
2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors
2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.
2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.
So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater
And he lost 6 out of 10See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:
2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.
2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.
2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring
2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)
2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.
2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.
2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors
2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.
2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.
So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater
Irving missed games 2-6 and Love missed the entire series (Varejao was injured too, but he wasn't a key player at that point).
Given how James emasculated the terrified frauds, it's probable that if just one of Irving or Love were healthy, they'd have won.
Other than Celtics which forced him to go to Miami, East was a joke during his prime.
PG led Pacers were probably the best team he had to face in the East for 8 straight seasons, joke coference that allowed him to be at his best in the finals while West had at least three finals worthy teams every year that murdered each other.
All-NBA teams during those years are all you need to check to see how weak the East was.
2016 is the prime example of Spurs, Thunder and Warriors killing each other and Lebron taking advantage of hobbled opponent in the finals. I'd even say he got lucky he faced the Warriors since they never had anything to stop him. Spurs and Thunder were well-equipped with wing defenders and rim protectors.
He averaged 28, 25 an 28 ppg against the Thunder and Spurs in the finals, only to jump to 35, 30, 34, 34 against the Warriors. Their plan was to let him have his.
Was he unbelievable? Yes. Was he the best player on the floor? Yes.
Were the Warriors a favorable matchup for him personally? Obviously.
2007 Cavs were a joke, but their compe ion was some of the worst ever.
In closeout game against the Pistons he shot 3-11, Daniel Gibson dropped 31 off the bench.
He was young and not ready, but his 2007 finals performance was atrocious. Iirc he shot 22% outside the paint.
Three games were close and getting swept is a bad look, no matter how much better Spurs were back then.
I'd say that '86 Bulls vs Celtics is a comparable series if we talk unfavorable matchups.
MJ got swept...averaging 43/6/6 on 50% FG at 23 years old.
2011 just takes him out of GOAT debate even if he had 6 rings.
That was one of the worst chokejobs by an all-time great ever. His team was doing well, they needed him to just not the bed...and he got outscored by Jason Terry.
That's just the pure basketball ability side of things. He's the second best player ever, no doubt.
But if we talk everything else, he's way lower...if you're a fan of a certain team and not just one player.
He sets his teams so far back it's not worth it if you're a big market team.
I'm personally a fan of players enabling their teams to win long term and elevating the culture.
In that regard, only Bill Russell compares to Timmy.
Which player in NBA history leads the 2007 Cavs, 2014 Heat, 2015 Cavs, or 2017/2018 Cavs to a le? Seriously, I would love to hear this argument
Saying he didn’t elevate his teams to winning is just insane levels of hate. You can about his compe ion all you want, and of course the East wasn’t as strong as the West. But acting like that means he isn’t a top 2 player at worst is hilarious to me. I can’t believe we’re still having these discussions in 2024 when we’ve watched him continue to be a top 10 player in the league at 38-39 years old
See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:
2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.
2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.
2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring
2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)
2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.
2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.
2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors
2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.
2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.
So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater
Im just not a fan and my standard for thr greatest of all time is different than yours.
Kobe really is the recipient of kind romanticized takes since his passing, but there are a lot of marks against him. The Lakers won three in a row with Shaq as the highest usage rate guy on the team but then Kobe's ego got involved. Kobe had a sky high usage rate in the 2003 playoff series against the Spurs, and the Lakers lost, and it was more of the same in 2004 against the Pistons. Billups and other Pistons are on record saying they knew Kobe wanted a finals MVP and that he was going to shun Shaq to a certain degree to get it, and that let them use single coverage on Shaq while forcing Kobe to take more ill advised shots. Kobe shot 38.1 FG% on 113 FGA in those finals, while Shaq shot 63.1 FG% on 84 FGA. Then Kobe basically forced the Shaq trade, and afterwards the Lakers don't get past the first round of the playoffs for three years. Meanwhile Phil Jackson writes a book calling him uncoachable and generally a pain in the ass to deal with. They win two after the Pau trade, and then they're a non factor and Kobe posts two of the worst imaginable ball hogging low efficiency years ever for a star, winning 21 and 17 games before retiring. I would rank him a very definitive level below LeBron and Timmy.
I didn't say he had to lead them to the le, I said he had to do better in 2007 if he wanted to be the GOAT.Which player in NBA history leads the 2007 Cavs, 2014 Heat, 2015 Cavs, or 2017/2018 Cavs to a le? Seriously, I would love to hear this argument
MJ surely wouldn't have 1-12 total record in 2007, 2017 and 2018 finals when chances of winning were almost non-existant.
I didn't say that. I just said he's credited for way more than he actually did.Saying he didn’t elevate his teams to winning is just insane levels of hate.
I said he is if we just talk pure ability.But acting like that means he isn’t a top 2 player at worst is hilarious to me.
If both him and AD are top10 players, how come the Lakers can't do year in and year out?I can’t believe we’re still having these discussions in 2024 when we’ve watched him continue to be a top 10 player in the league at 38-39 years old
Two top10 players went 1-8 in two series against the Nuggets.
Overall, my biggest issue with Lebron is that when he won it was always about him carrying a bunch of scrubs in magnificant feats of grandeur.
But when he lost, it was never his fault.
Maybe they would have ranked him higher if they realize he had 5 championships... says 4 time champion, lol.
Agreed. After Duncan won in 2014 the consensus flipped back to Duncan being better than Kobe in all time rankings and stayed that way until Kobe passed away in 2020 and immediately flipped back to these clowns putting Kobe ahead of Duncan simply because his death added to his legacy. It's annoying how Kobe's death has inflated his all-time rankings and value.
So he has the same amount of rings as Duncan. Remember you can’t count 99. And twice the amount of MVPs and finals mvps. He also has two gold medals. And he has twice the amount of finals as Tim in this century. He has more points than anyone in league history. He’s top 5 in assists all time as well. And he’s playing at all nba level at age 40. He has the most 1st team all nba in nba history. The most all star games in nba history. And he’s still the best player on his team at age 40.
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