The Irregular Trebuchet of Stephon Castle

[z0sa]

Combo guards aren’t really what we need. He has great size for a PG. But that goes out the window when you put him as a SG. He can’t actually shoot so having him off ball isn’t really ideal. You want Castle to push the pace of the game, find Wemby as he runs the floor, hit open shooters, and play hard on defense.

The thing about Spurstalk is they really underestimate how hard it is to be a point guard. And a lot of people grew up on Manu so they think that since Manu was both a SG and ran our offense, all of our guards with size should be that way. And that’s not true. He is 19 and doesn’t know on how to play PG. He doesnt know how to lead a team, how run half court offense in the crunch, how and where Wemby likes the ball. His passes need to be crisper. He needs to be thinking 3 steps ahead on every play. His ball handling has to improve. Basically he needs to learn from scratch how to play PG.

And imo (and for some reason only my opinion) chasing 2 paths of playing while not being a master of one is stupidity. I said it with Lonnie. I said it with Sochan. I said it with Wemby to start the season. Give the youth a clear defined role at the start and don’t just around with them. If you draft a PG then play him as PG. The Spurs have no idea how to develop positionless basketball. And that’s bc there isn’t such a thing. You need player who know what the they are doing and what the role they have from day 1. Then you branch them out slowly to see what sticks

I agree. There's a handful of players ever who had size, could play multiple positions AND can also run the PG spot like a true PG would. They're also some of the best players to ever do it - Magic, Jordan, LeBron are the only names that immediately float to the top of my head (just worked a 20 hour shift, I know I'm missing plenty).

[dn0774]

I agree. There's a handful of players ever who had size, could play multiple positions AND can also run the PG spot like a true PG would. They're also some of the best players to ever do it - Magic, Jordan, LeBron are the only names that immediately float to the top of my head (just worked a 20 hour shift, I know I'm missing plenty).

Finding him pure PG minutes especially early on is going to be an adventure assuming CP3/Tre are taking all 48. That leaves Castle with some minutes at the 2/3 which isn't ideal given his inconsistent shooting (though I cant help but be a filthy optimist and hope he has some kind of Tyrese Maxey trajectory with regards to his shooting). I just hope the Spurs dont roll the proverbial ball out and say "lets see what you got" in actual game scenarios without any clearly defined role which suits his current abilities.

[exstatic]

I agree. There's a handful of players ever who had size, could play multiple positions AND can also run the PG spot like a true PG would. They're also some of the best players to ever do it - Magic, Jordan, LeBron are the only names that immediately float to the top of my head (just worked a 20 hour shift, I know I'm missing plenty).

Ron Harper
Brian Shaw
Manu

[Mr. Body]

I think he was super aggressive knowing he would play limited minutes. He could probably get away with that for a year or two here, knowing he won’t be playing heavy minutes, but will eventually have to dial it back a notch.

Oh, I think he'll learn the fine balance as he goes. In college, he pushed the line a bit and picked up fouls. I don't think it had to do with minutes, just play style.

In this video,

:52 an example of where he leans his body into the player without using his hands, forces a weaker player into a bad shot; see the subtle push he gives with his shoulder?
1:13 another bump, very subtle. I actually think this might get called sometimes in the NBA
1:27 a bump as the guy enters the lane. I think this will often get called in the NBA

And so on.

It's a really fine line and he's already really good at using his body without appearing to foul. Again, in today's NBA they baby offensive players to the extreme.

1:34 he uses his strength to wall up a posting guard who just can't do anything against him
2:04 this will be called a foul on him

Basically, he occupies so much space into the bodies of offensive players, and will crowd them. He's so strong that he wears out their energy trying to get their moves together, which often leads to these crazy misses. He's only 20 and causing a lot of problems for attacking guards. He'll learn how the NBA calls things nowadays, but how he uses his strength to guide, shift, absorb, bump, players is really good already, but he will get fouls called on him for a while as he learns.

Dude's just really strong for his position. He's often shedding defenders on drives because he's built like a tree.

[Mr. Body]

Another good example is at 3:58, where that's a foul in the NBA depending on where the ref sees the play. If they're at the side, no call. If they see where the camera view is, foul.

Again, he's so good at using his body to bump and shift these guys, just may need to learn the nuance.

[KingKev]

I’m tempering my expectations for Castle in year 1. I suspect he gets spot minutes across the 1-3 but I don’t think he will have the long leash that out youth has been given in recent years. Keldon, DV, Sochan, Primo, Branham and to a lesser extent Wesley all had long leashes and the ability to work through mistakes. With this team trying to win now and some compe ion at the backup 1/2 we might not see as much of him in year 1.

[Atl Spur]

My biggest thing about Castle's defense is learning how not to foul. He fouled a bit too much in college. He can get too aggressive with how he bodies and shoulders guys. Already he gets on the verge of pushing it and because Silver's -ass rules give everything to the offensive player, it's a concern. When it works, however, Castle can really get guys off-balance and out of step by how he uses his chest and shoulders on defense without it appearing like he is. He's really strong.

If he can get that balance right, he's going to be a of a defender.

He wants to play defense at an elite level; I’m thinking he’ll figure it out.

[Atl Spur]

I’m tempering my expectations for Castle in year 1. I suspect he gets spot minutes across the 1-3 but I don’t think he will have the long leash that out youth has been given in recent years. Keldon, DV, Sochan, Primo, Branham and to a lesser extent Wesley all had long leashes and the ability to work through mistakes. With this team trying to win now and some compe ion at the backup 1/2 we might not see as much of him in year 1.

I’d be stunned if he doesn’t play a lot year one, Pop is gonna love this kid!

[KingKev]

I’d be stunned if he doesn’t play a lot year one, Pop is gonna love this kid!

Barring injury or a trade I don’t see where those minutes come from unless he beats out quite a few guys. He is a lock to backup Vassell for 15-20 mins a game but other than that will probably only see spot minutes elsewhere. Will also be competing with Wesley and Branham who still have defensive and 3 point shooting potential in spot minutes.

PG mins will be split between CP3/Tre Jones. 3 split between Barnes/Keldon. Vassell probably plays 32-34 mins at the 2.

[Mr. Body]

He wants to play defense at an elite level; I’m thinking he’ll figure it out.

Yeah. I guess my point is he's already using his body in ways that are really taxing on opposing guards, but he's going to have to crank it back and figure things out more. He's already really sneaky with how he manipulates attacking guards for his age.

[KobesAchilles]

If Castle can’t beat out Tre Jones for back up PG then that doesn’t bode well at all for him as a player. It would also be bull . Jones has one year left on his contract, has no future on this team, and is as developed as he’s ever going to become. Castle needs all the reps he can get, he’s the 4th ing pick of the draft, and he’s guaranteed a future in this team for the next 5 years minimum. Castle should and better be getting all the point guard minutes that CP3 isn’t playing or else this shows our front office inep ude again.

[BackHome]

Cp3 is 40 years old and doesn’t have a lot of tread left on his tire so yeah Castle will be getting minutes at PG. I would imagine that he averages around 15 to 18 minutes at PG and probably around 8 minutes at SG

[KingKev]

Cp3 is 40 years old and doesn’t have a lot of tread left on his tire so yeah Castle will be getting minutes at PG. I would imagine that he averages around 15 to 18 minutes at PG and probably around 8 minutes at SG

CP3 was averaging 26 mins last year in GS and >30 mins his 3years prior in Phoenix where he was still getting MVP votes. Not bad for a 39 year old. It’s been reported one of the main reasons he is coming here is because he wants to play and will be the starting PG which is his to lose. He is easily getting 25 minutes a night here. Tre Jones likely gets the rest if the minutes. PG minutes are largely spoken for barring injuries. No way a 19 yr old steps in from the jump and gets meaningful minutes when we are actually in win now mode. His PG development will come behind the scenes and in Austin; atleast for year 1.

[rankingtear]

Castle replaces Branham as a the two-man game partner of Wemby off the bench. Tre would still be the game manager of the second unit. There would be some Castle-Devin at the 2-3 in there as well, PG minutes would probably come next year or toward the end of this one. I think this is the optimal role for him for next season.

[John B]

I like Castle playing a Demar combo type if possible to get him out there and a chance at ROY. But Sheppard might get it though. The Rockets could make a lot of noise with their young crew, much like OKC, and Sheppard could make some dazzling shots. Damn I hate the Rockettes

[dn0774]

CP3 was averaging 26 mins last year in GS and >30 mins his 3years prior in Phoenix where he was still getting MVP votes. Not bad for a 39 year old. It’s been reported one of the main reasons he is coming here is because he wants to play and will be the starting PG which is his to lose. He is easily getting 25 minutes a night here. Tre Jones likely gets the rest if the minutes. PG minutes are largely spoken for barring injuries. No way a 19 yr old steps in from the jump and gets meaningful minutes when we are actually in win now mode. His PG development will come behind the scenes and in Austin; atleast for year 1.

The thought of the 4th pick in the draft by a 22 win team spending time in the G League isn't good, I hope it doesn't come to that. Hopefully Pop doesn't give him the "get over yourself" treatment for the first 2/3's of the season and actually lets him get significant run in meaningful games. This kid was a 5 star HS recruit that went to the National Champions to play a role that didn't feature his entire repertoire of skills by any stretch, he is "over himself" already.

[John B]

The thought of the 4th pick in the draft by a 22 win team spending time in the G League isn't good, I hope it doesn't come to that. Hopefully Pop doesn't give him the "get over yourself" treatment for the first 2/3's of the season and actually lets him get significant run in meaningful games. This kid was a 5 star HS recruit that went to the National Champions to play a role that didn't feature his entire repertoire of skills by any stretch, he is "over himself" already.

I agree. But the thing that keeps reminding me was Castle’s statement during the Pre-Draft, of wanting to be a PG. I wonder how much he changed since getting the call from Pop, and CP3 getting signed.

[KobesAchilles]

I agree. But the thing that keeps reminding me was Castle’s statement during the Pre-Draft, of wanting to be a PG. I wonder how much he changed since getting the call from Pop, and CP3 getting signed.

If anything, signing CP3 was a reaffirmation that Castle is playing PG this year. We draft a 19 year old PG and then sign a 40 year old vet to teach him the position from film, practice, the bench, and then actual play. And if Pop plays Jones over Castle at PG this year then he needs to be fired asap. Same if he sends him to Austin. Castle needs a clear define role coming in as the back up PG.

Then again, that’s what a competent organization would do. The Spurs…

[Ice009]

This is ridiculous. He's the 4th pick in the draft, and it's a 22 win team he's coming to. If he doesn't play, and play a decent amount, the Spurs drafting people/scouts need to be fired.

If anything, signing CP3 was a reaffirmation that Castle is playing PG this year. We draft a 19 year old PG and then sign a 40 year old vet to teach him the position from film, practice, the bench, and then actual play. And if Pop plays Jones over Castle at PG this year then he needs to be fired asap. Same if he sends him to Austin. Castle needs a clear define role coming in as the back up PG.

Then again, that’s what a competent organization would do. The Spurs…

Edit : I agree with this completely. He needs to play, otherwise, the guys in charge of drafting and/or possibly Pop (if he doesn't play him) need to be let go.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Castle can play with tre and cp3 in 2 pg sets. No reason he can't run sets as the primary ball handler and guard up on D

[Mr. Body]

Castle can play with tre and cp3 in 2 pg sets. No reason he can't run sets as the primary ball handler and guard up on D

Yep. I'm not sure why he's getting tabbed as full-time point or not. The Spurs' offense can have multiple points of entry, which is why it worked so well in the beautiful game era. While I don't think Sochan can become Diaw, or be a prime initiator, he can be a wing facilitator. Him aside, in a Castle-Wembanyama-Paul/Jones set, you have three guys who can set things in motion. Discovering that inverted pick-n-roll was pretty genius. Those inverted sets can evolve from there.

[KobesAchilles]

Everybody keeps bringing up the beautiful game argument but the fact is that team was incredibly smart. They were pretty much all foreign players who knew how to play the game and they were all vets. Our youth got to learn the system while being taught by like 10 guys

Thus Spurs team is a bunch idiots. They can’t run set plays. They are lazy on defense. They don’t communicate. They can’t even throw a damn inbound pass to their best player. We had one player last year who could run an actual pick n roll. this team was so stupid they couldn’t really throw lob passes consistently to Wemby. Meanwhile Dallas threw over 60 to their center in just the playoffs alone. Forget the all time talent of Tim, Tony, and Manu- we just don’t have the intelligence

[exstatic]

Everybody keeps bringing up the beautiful game argument but the fact is that team was incredibly smart. They were pretty much all foreign players who knew how to play the game and they were all vets. Our youth got to learn the system while being taught by like 10 guys

Thus Spurs team is a bunch idiots. They can’t run set plays. They are lazy on defense. They don’t communicate. They can’t even throw a damn inbound pass to their best player. We had one player last year who could run an actual pick n roll. this team was so stupid they couldn’t really throw lob passes consistently to Wemby. Meanwhile Dallas threw over 60 to their center in just the playoffs alone. Forget the all time talent of Tim, Tony, and Manu- we just don’t have the intelligence

Two: Trey, and Wemby on the inverted. Devin also wasn’t bad, although the volume was low.

[Mr. Body]

Everybody keeps bringing up the beautiful game argument but the fact is that team was incredibly smart. They were pretty much all foreign players who knew how to play the game and they were all vets. Our youth got to learn the system while being taught by like 10 guys

Thus Spurs team is a bunch idiots. They can’t run set plays. They are lazy on defense. They don’t communicate. They can’t even throw a damn inbound pass to their best player. We had one player last year who could run an actual pick n roll. this team was so stupid they couldn’t really throw lob passes consistently to Wemby. Meanwhile Dallas threw over 60 to their center in just the playoffs alone. Forget the all time talent of Tim, Tony, and Manu- we just don’t have the intelligence

Yeah this is why they went and got two long time vets.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah this is why they went and got two long time vets.

I agree. However Barnes is really the only one with experience of the beautiful game. CP3 has no idea how to play it. He has been pounding the air out of the bball for years. Golden St didn't even really run their offense with CP3 they went to him just running pick n roll every action. My problem with the youth is their inability to learn. That's what really separated Danny Green and Kawhi. They picked up on the offense so fast and by year 2 in the system, they looked like they had been running it their whole lives. I believe that was because of the vets that they learned this, but Manu, Tim, Tony, Boris were just basketball geniuses. And they helped guide the youth.

I think they step by step told everybody where to be and where they were looking to pass to. And the youth had no choice but to have accountability because we were a contender. That's why I'm hoping Victor is more vocal this year. He needs to tell everyone where to be on defense. He needs to demand the ball. He needs to hold everyone accountable and he needs to go to Pop and tell him to cuss him out during practice. It's way too much to ask a 20 year old. But imo, it's not his play that's going to bring us back to a contender but rather the intangibles as a leader. It's why Durant struggles as a 1. He doesn't like conflict. I think Victor thrives off of it. Well I hope anyways