The Parisian Patisserie of Victor Wembanyama

[Chinook]

There is a certain logic into what Spurs are doing with Wembnayama.
Spurs are taking their time in building a roster around him and they are also taking their time with his development. There are no need to speed up his development if the team around him doesn't follow that.

Wembanyama could be better right now if he cut some aspect of his game and focus on some simple and effective moves. He doesn't want to do that, and, AFAIK, Spurs don't want him to that. The goal isn't to be good right now, it's to be great in 2/3 years. Batum said it well recently in a french interview: "He knows who he is and he knows who he should become"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORpak9ws2A0&t=1920s

I bristle at the suggestion that it should be Victor's choice whether he plays winning ball or not. Nothing about Wemby playing within an offense precludes him continuing to explore his game. The problem isn't really that he takes threes or tries to iso. It's that that's basically ALL he's doing, and he struggles to do his part for other players. He still seems to look at things like screens primarily as a means to get himself open rather than part of a series of actions to get good looks for everyone. Guys like Paul and Barnes WANT to get Victor the ball. They don't want to call their own numbers. But he's not doing his part, and that's a problem. If the staff isn't coaching him to limit that, it's a disservice. If he's resisting because he feels en led to be paid millions of dollars to treat this season as an expo for his performance art, that's a huge problem. I'd never want to hear about how much he wants to win again if he values his freedom from coaching more than his actual impact on winning.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, I'm surprised but it's just one game. He had a poor play/shot selection against Mavs.

My point is that, even if, for example, his P&R with Paul turns out as a deadly weapon, he won't limit himself to that. He wants to be a complete player because it's the path to end up as the GOAT.

the path to end up as the GOAT is different for different players with different tools and skillsets. for guards/forwards like jordan, magic, lebron, bird, their path to GOAThood talks was their versatility and being complete players. scoring, defense, playmaking, shooting, etc.

for bigs in the GOAT convo, its usually more straightforward. obviously the days of wilt/russell arent applicable, but hakeem, shaq, duncan all knew what their bread and butter was and did it to perfection.

[quentin_compson]

Yeah, I really don't see any benefit in Wemby continuing to develop bad habits in his game. I really hope this season will see him and the coaching staff focusing on him improving on his shot selection.

[Bruno]

I bristle at the suggestion that it should be Victor's choice whether he plays winning ball or not. Nothing about Wemby playing within an offense precludes him continuing to explore his game. The problem isn't really that he takes threes or tries to iso. It's that that's basically ALL he's doing, and he struggles to do his part for other players. He still seems to look at things like screens primarily as a means to get himself open rather than part of a series of actions to get good looks for everyone. Guys like Paul and Barnes WANT to get Victor the ball. They don't want to call their own numbers. But he's not doing his part, and that's a problem. If the staff isn't coaching him to limit that, it's a disservice. If he's resisting because he feels en led to be paid millions of dollars to treat this season as an expo for his performance art, that's a huge problem. I'd never want to hear about how much he wants to win again if he values his freedom from coaching more than his actual impact on winning.

Well, it was just one game. If in 10 games, he is still playing like that, it will too go after him for playing like that.

There is a middle ground to find for Wembanyama and the coaching staff between trying new things and sticking to what is the most efficient. He also needs to do that within the team offense.To me they find that right balance during the second half of his rookie season. It obviously wasn't the case against Mavs.

I disagree with you on the part about winning. At the end, what Wembanyama and Spurs want to win isn't games, it's the NBA le. Breaking news: it won't be this year. It's fine that some players try difficult things to grow as players and be better in a few years when Spurs will try to win it all.

[scott]

It looks like there is zero effort to coach of develop Wemby. So either that's not happening, or Wemby is just going off script and doing what he wants. Either way, it's a problem.

[RC_Drunkford]

Maybe I'm thinking too much about LMA's final years, but he's pegged in my mind as a guy with a turn-around jumper in the post, but that's it.

nope. Turnaround fadeaway was his go-to, then there were pick and pops, face ups, hook shots and step throughs. Wemby has to develop a face up game in the post a la Kevin Garnett. The problem is he's not really that good from midrange.

it looks to me like the plan this year is to let Wemby go to work on the left block in the post and for him to figure out how to score there. This will take a while, because as of right now he really has no moves there.

[Pauleta14]

Yeah, I'm surprised but it's just one game. He had a poor play/shot selection against Mavs.

My point is that, even if, for example, his P&R with Paul turns out as a deadly weapon, he won't limit himself to that. He wants to be a complete player because it's the path to end up as the GOAT.

Sure, I respect that and even excited by that perspective but as of now he has none he can rely on.

Anyways, 1st game as u say, let's wait and see

[Chinook]

Well, it was just one game. If in 10 games, he is still playing like that, it will too go after him for playing like that.

It was "just one game" if we ignore the pre-season too. Again, my issue isn't really based on the amount of shots he made or anything like that. I'm more than willing to chuck that up to rustiness. It's about what seems to be his at ude on the court over the last game and the pre-season games. You don't turn into a largely self-centered guy because you're out of practice. Could his at ude have been a response to his rustiness (like he wasn't hitting shots so he started forcing them)? Maybe. But he came into the game doing that, so it certainly wasn't the sole cause.

There is a middle ground to find for Wembanyama and the coaching staff between trying new things and sticking to what is the most efficient. He also needs to do that within the team offense.To me they find that right balance during the second half of his rookie season. It obviously wasn't the case against Mavs.

I don't disagree with this in premise, but the "balance" isn't static -- the ratio that made sense last year won't be the same as what makes sense this year. He should have more things he's good at by this point. You brought up the hypothetical about him being a deadly PnR partner with Paul. But he's not like that, with Paul or anyone. There's a difference between a guy like Reed Sheppard saying he doesn't just want to be a shooter and a guy like Amen Thompson saying that. You can get the fundamentals then choose to not use them all the time. You can't not learn them then choose to start doing them. Wemby playing within the team concept isn't some sacrifice he's making for the team's benefit. It's essential to his individual development to be able to play his position at an NBA level. His shot quality also goes down when he freelances. With nothing solid to fall back on, his experimentation doesn't really have anything to measure it against.

I disagree with you on the part about winning. At the end, what Wembanyama and Spurs want to win isn't games, it's the NBA le. Breaking news: it won't be this year. It's fine that some players try difficult things to grow as players and be better in a few years when Spurs will try to win it all.

Nobody cares that Victor wants to win a le. EVERY player wants to win that. He's not special in that regard at all. But when he's sitting there pouting in press conferences because his team is on a losing streak, it undercuts the idea that he's willing to sacrifice short-term wins in pursuit of a le. This is accepting the assumption that that relationship is sound and that the Victor playing winning ball now impedes future success. That's not really true -- while not incredibly linear, player development isn't so stochastic as to be a mess that all of the sudden comes together. Players can and do build their games up in noticeable benchmarks. Wemby's not going to spend years floating around on the perimeter and then just suddenly understand the nuances to screening, moving and timing. Believing that is just insulting to players who perfected those elements over long successful careers. He needs to practice those things to do them well, and right now there's not a ton of evidence that he's doing it.

But even accepting that assumption -- I don't think Victor is as comfortable losing as you suggest he is. I think he wants his team to win every game. When he does his "call for the ball when he's not open" shtick, it's because he believes that's best for the team. I hope that's just because he's young, eager and confident rather than him internalizing the assumption that his teammates have been letting him down and they can't win without him controlling everything. Whether being a center is his main future or just a hat he needs to wear from time to time, he'll need to understand that the position requires that he read and react rather than try to initiate touches. If he wants to compartmentalize it to where he's Durant sometimes and Chandler other times, that's whatever. What matters is that when he's in Chandler mode that he needs to embody that role because the offense can't work if he doesn't.

"He knows who he is and he knows who he should become" isn't profound if "who he is" is "the main character on the court" and "who he should become" is "best player in NBA history". Maybe the 20-year-old doesn't have some psychic understanding of how he's going to develop and what the pathway will look like. I feel like most of us didn't know at 20 what we'd become. I'm perfectly willing to wait to see what happens. But yes, I'm feeling a bit apprehensive that his conviction on how he needs to play could end up hindering his growth more than he believes it will.

[TheBallsbreakers]

That's a whole lot of assumptions there, bud, from ONE game.
Wemby was pretty active on hand-offs all night.

[TheBallsbreakers]

It was "just one game" if we ignore the pre-season too. Again, my issue isn't really based on the amount of shots he made or anything like that. I'm more than willing to chuck that up to rustiness. It's about what seems to be his at ude on the court over the last game and the pre-season games. You don't turn into a largely self-centered guy because you're out of practice. Could his at ude have been a response to his rustiness (like he wasn't hitting shots so he started forcing them)? Maybe. But he came into the game doing that, so it certainly wasn't the sole cause.



I don't disagree with this in premise, but the "balance" isn't static -- the ratio that made sense last year won't be the same as what makes sense this year. He should have more things he's good at by this point. You brought up the hypothetical about him being a deadly PnR partner with Paul. But he's not like that, with Paul or anyone. There's a difference between a guy like Reed Sheppard saying he doesn't just want to be a shooter and a guy like Amen Thompson saying that. You can get the fundamentals then choose to not use them all the time. You can't not learn them then choose to start doing them. Wemby playing within the team concept isn't some sacrifice he's making for the team's benefit. It's essential to his individual development to be able to play his position at an NBA level. His shot quality also goes down when he freelances. With nothing solid to fall back on, his experimentation doesn't really have anything to measure it against.



Nobody cares that Victor wants to win a le. EVERY player wants to win that. He's not special in that regard at all. But when he's sitting there pouting in press conferences because his team is on a losing streak, it undercuts the idea that he's willing to sacrifice short-term wins in pursuit of a le. This is accepting the assumption that that relationship is sound and that the Victor playing winning ball now impedes future success. That's not really true -- while not incredibly linear, player development isn't so stochastic as to be a mess that all of the sudden comes together. Players can and do build their games up in noticeable benchmarks. Wemby's not going to spend years floating around on the perimeter and then just suddenly understand the nuances to screening, moving and timing. Believing that is just insulting to players who perfected those elements over long successful careers. He needs to practice those things to do them well, and right now there's not a ton of evidence that he's doing it.

But even accepting that assumption -- I don't think Victor is as comfortable losing as you suggest he is. I think he wants his team to win every game. When he does his "call for the ball when he's not open" shtick, it's because he believes that's best for the team. I hope that's just because he's young, eager and confident rather than him internalizing the assumption that his teammates have been letting him down and they can't win without him controlling everything. Whether being a center is his main future or just a hat he needs to wear from time to time, he'll need to understand that the position requires that he read and react rather than try to initiate touches. If he wants to compartmentalize it to where he's Durant sometimes and Chandler other times, that's whatever. What matters is that when he's in Chandler mode that he needs to embody that role because the offense can't work if he doesn't.

"He knows who he is and he knows who he should become" isn't profound if "who he is" is "the main character on the court" and "who he should become" is "best player in NBA history". Maybe the 20-year-old doesn't have some psychic understanding of how he's going to develop and what the pathway will look like. I feel like most of us didn't know at 20 what we'd become. I'm perfectly willing to wait to see what happens. But yes, I'm feeling a bit apprehensive that his conviction on how he needs to play could end up hindering his growth more than he believes it will.

I envy your seeming cer ude on how a kid you only see through a TV screen thinks. Even going by his actions on and off the court, that's still quite the jump to make when you admittedly base it off of a couple of preseason games AND 1 regular season game.

You're essentially inferring in a roundabout way that the kid is becoming egotistical at the expense of the team.

Bravo.

[Bruno]

^^ First, I'm going to translate what Batum said about Wembanayama because I find it interesting:

You spend your first summer with Wembanayama with FNT. What do you think about him? Everybody is amazed by what he is doing but he still has a long way to goo...
That's the scary part. He still has a long way to go but he is already playing at a high level. This what he said after the final "'I'm just at 15%" and what is crazy is that I truly believe that he is only at 15%. I've seen things from him during practices, behind closed doors and without cameras.. You said to yourself that if he develop that and do it during games, it's going to be huge. He's doing things that makes no sense.
In addition to his talent, there is his mentality. What impresses me about this kid is that he knows who he is and who he should become. It's hard to know that but he knows. It could seem to be arrogant, especially in France, but he has so much trust about who he should become and he is doing everything to become that.
I've been very happy to have been able to share a part of his career and to have earn a medal with him. My son is a fan of him like every other kids. He is going to make dream kids for the next 15, 20 years and I'm happy to have played a little with him at the start of that.

----------------------------------------------------

My view on a player development is that there are basically two path:
The first one is working on everything at the same time.
The second one is to focus on a few basic parts of the game and when they are mastered, expand his game.

Each way had edges and drawbacks. The first one will allow the player to reach his ceiling the fastest. The second one is safer and makes him a more efficient/better player short term wise.
As always, it isn't one or the other but it's a mix of both. With Wembanyama, Spurs seem to heavily favorize the first path for his development. A big reason of that is that how Wembanayama wants to develop, keeping his versatility is important to him. Spurs also can deal with Wembanyama being quite inefficient right now because the team around him isn't ready.

But yeah, Wembanyama definitively needs to be better at setting screens. Even if he won't make as many as a traditional center, they must be well made.

[DAF86]

Couldn't watch the game. Did he get hurt? Wht did he only play 30 minutes on a 3pts game?

[cutewizard]

He played well today

[james evans]

I truly don't understand +/- calculations. Last night Wemby was 0 and Collins was a +3.

[Pauleta14]

I truly don't understand +/- calculations. Last night Wemby was 0 and Collins was a +3.

It's the most complex, most overated and most misunderstood stat in NBA.

It should be taken away imo, but it's such an efficient clickbait/debate generator...

[Chinook]

I truly don't understand +/- calculations. Last night Wemby was 0 and Collins was a +3.

That makes sense given that they won by three and the two split 48 minutes. What's there to not get?

[Pauleta14]

The point is that Collins didn't have a better game than Wemby.

[SayTown]

It means Wemby and the Spurs starters were a wash vs the Rockets starters and Collins and the bench were plus 3 vs the Rockets bench.

[Chinook]

The point is that Collins didn't have a better game than Wemby.

That's not what the stat measures. It would be like being weirded out Sochan had more rebounds then saying rebounds need to ne removed from the box score because it doesn't say who's the better player.

[Pauleta14]

That's not what the stat measures. It would be like being weirded out Sochan had more rebounds then saying rebounds need to ne removed from the box score because it doesn't say who's the better player.

I wasn't talking about the point of +/- stat but the point of his post/question.

It's not a stat that by itself will tell you much about an individual production or level of a player during a game, it's more in the correlation department than the causations one.

Matt Bonner would be a HOFer otherwise

[skin27]

You're saying 7'3 mid-range king?

Most likely.its not difficult to learn post moves however wemby doesnt have consistent post game even until now in his 2nd season.

[mudyez]

+/- is one of the worst stats if you only are looking at one game. But it's one of the best if looked on over the course of a season. Sure, it doesn't adjust for certain subs ution patters (eg Wemby going against starters and Collins against second units...or a certain player beeing paired with a star coz he is his bodyguard or whatever), but it's a great stat to measure the real impact of a player.

I as a player always have been kind of a floor general...running the correct offenses...making sure, we always preventing opposing transition and so on. Often thats not measured in counting stats, but when subbed out and in I usually take a look at the scoreboard and I know my value to the team because more often than not it shows my positive +/-.

[mudyez]

And btw...this list is no joke...and I can't find Bonner anywhere:

https://www.basketball-reference.com...pm_career.html

while this one is fun to look at:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba...in-nba-history

...and this one shows that a single game says nothing:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba...in-nba-history

[Pauleta14]

+/- is one of the worst stats if you only are looking at one game. But it's one of the best if looked on over the course of a season. Sure, it doesn't adjust for certain subs ution patters (eg Wemby going against starters and Collins against second units...or a certain player beeing paired with a star coz he is his bodyguard or whatever), but it's a great stat to measure the real impact of a player.

I as a player always have been kind of a floor general...running the correct offenses...making sure, we always preventing opposing transition and so on. Often thats not measured in counting stats, but when subbed out and in I usually take a look at the scoreboard and I know my value to the team because more often than not it shows my positive +/-.

Sure, I didn't say it was useless, just that it shouldn't be on the stat sheet basically.

I agree it's a very useful data on the middle/long term, but short term it's an open way to confuse correlation and causation imo

Too many factors other than the sole production of the player are impacting this stat

As for Bonner it's more a ST running joke but thx for the info

[ace3g]