Update at 54 games played, cutoff at 30 minutes:
Lineup Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % EFG% Pace PIE 1 Vassell-Jones-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **NEW SL** 212 117.7 112.8 4.9 2.24 51.4 58.4 102.11 53.0 2 Johnson-Vassell-Branham-Sochan-Wemby **SL 2**90 90 102.5 100.0 2.5 1.50 50.0 53.3 107.6 51.3 3 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Sochan-Wemby **ORIG SL** 88 93.8 110.8 -17.1 1.51 51.6 47.8 104.76 41.8 4 Collins-Johnson-Branham-Sochan-Wemby 84 110.6 126.3 -15.7 1.96 51.9 56.2 102.9 45.7 5 Johnson-Vassell-Jones-Sochan-Wemby **CLOSING 5?** 77 117.4 96.6 20.8 2.85 47.3 57.0 110.25 63.9 6 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Jones-Sochan 45 104.9 10.39 1.0 1.6 45.1 63.2 108.87 52.3 7 Vassell-Champ-Branham-Sochan-Wemby 44 111.2 122.0 -10.7 2.15 41.5 59.3 98.93 50.0 8 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Branham-Sochan **ANTI-DEATH** 42 86.0 124.2 -38.2 1.0 51.1 44.6 112.19 28.4 9 McDermott-Osman-Johnson-Jones-Wemby 39 91.0 109.1 -18.1 1.75 48.2 46.0 107.96 45.1 10 McDermott-Vassell-Jones-Sochan-Wemby 35 98.7 98.6 0.1 1.53 53.9 58.5 103.21 61.3 11 Collins-Johnson-Champ-Sochan-Wemby 34 114.7 108.6 6.1 1.83 55.9 54.9 98.77 50.3 12 Osman-Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Jones 31 106.8 112.7 -5.8 2.0 52.7 50.8 111.01 47.1
Notes:
- Zero minutes logged for lineups 3,4 and 6 (and only 2 minutes logged for lineup 2) since the last update. We'll call that good coaching decisions.
- Starting 5 has come down to earth a little since the last update, but still a solid net positive lineup
- Closing 5 lineup has come back down to earth in regards to their ORTG, but their DRTG has actually IMPROVED since the last update (8 games)
- The Anti-Death lineup snuck in 1 more minute since the last update and managed to get worse. Impressive, actually.
- Two Doug lineups made their way into the top 10, but weren't very good (though Lineup 10 had a nice DRTG). RIP Doug.
- Lineup 11 is a newcomer, and has only played 3 games together, but have logged 34 minutes, which is a lot. Not a terrible lineup, surprisingly. One of our best rebounding lineups
3-man lineup of Wemby/Vassell/Jones has a 10.2 net rating, best on the team when you add a minutes criteria of 80 or so
top used 3-man lineups overall:
a) collins' impact has been abysmal
b) its pretty amusing that sochan/tre/wemby outperforms sochan/vassell/wemby because the former rules out all the point sochan minutes
Figured it was time for an update. Cutoff is at 48 minutes. 10 games to go.
Lineup Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % EFG% Pace PIE 1 Vassell-Jones-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **NEW SL** 380 114.1 112.0 2.1 2.25 51.7 56.8 103.24 52.4 2 Johnson-Vassell-Jones-Sochan-Wemby **CLOSING 5** 139 115.8 96.2 19.6 2.42 52.2 55.8 109.21 62.1 3 Johnson-Vassell-Branham-Sochan-Wembanyama 101 102.2 102.7 -0.4 67.1 59.3 52.1 107.08 49.3 4 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Jones-Sochan 98 107.1 112.6 -5.4 1.97 47.4 57.8 103.98 47.1 5 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Sochan-Wembanyama 88 93.8 110.8 -17.1 1.51 51.6 47.8 104.76 41.8 6 Collins-Johnson-Branham-Sochan-Wembanyama 84 110.6 126.3 -15.7 1.96 51.9 56.2 102.9 45.7 7 Osman-Johnson-Branham-Wesley-Wembanyama 75 95.2 99.4 -4.2 2.19 49.7 49.3 105.42 51.2 8 Collins-Vassell-Jones-Champagnie-Sochan 66 92.3 94.4 -2.1 1.87 56.4 52.1 103.52 51.3 9 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Branham-Sochan 62 86.9 121.1 -34.2 1.07 52.3 43.0 110.98 29.2 10 Collins-Johnson-Vassell-Wesley-Sochan 48 106.5 108.3 -1.93 1.93 55.2 51.0 107.61 49.0
Notes:
- "New" starting lineup (new in quotes since it's started 35 games together) has lost some of it's efficiency but is still a net positive
- The "closing 5" lineup remains very good!
- Branham's impact really stands out when you look at his NetRtg On/Off. Lineup 2 v Lineup 3 (Branham for Jones) is a -20.0 swing. Lineup 9 vs 10 (Branham for Wesley) is a -32.3 swing
- Collins and Wemby line ups have gotten a little more run (lineups 5 and 6)... but they are very very bad and should stop
- Obvious huge correlation between AST/TO ratio and NetRtg, but also a little bit of a correlation with REB%. The dropoff in REB% when Collins is in for Wemby is noticeable
Aloha Mijitos,
Have no fear, I'm back to keep this going with our best lineups now that we're 12 games into the season.
Right off the bat, I'm happy to report that once again the Spurs have one of the best 5-man lineups in the entire league. If I set the cutoff at 48 minutes, the Spurs have the #2 NETRTG lineup in the league with our current starting 5 of Paul-Barnes-Champ-Castle-Wemby. This lineup would be #1 in the league if we set the cutoff at 51 minutes. Good stuff.
12 games in, here are all of our lineups, sorted by NETRTG, with a minimum of 12 minutes played
Lineup GP Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % EFG% Pace PIE 1 Collins-Johnson-Champ-Branham-Castle 5 17 127.8 86.8 40.9 2.5 48.6 63.8 102.65 69.9 2 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Castle-Wemby **CURRENT SL** 7 64 126.5 93.3 33.1 2.2 55.9 63.1 101.39 66.0 3 Paul-Barnes-Johnson-Sochan-Wemby 6 26 113.2 81.8 31.4 1.8 63.1 51.0 100.99 70.9 4 Paul-Barnes-Collins-Champ-Sochan 5 12 133.3 123.1 10.3 2.67 50.0 75.0 109.97 57.0 5 Paul-Barnes-Johnson-Champ-Wemby 5 18 113.2 105.4 7.8 2.75 52.6 51.4 100.44 61.5 6 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **OLD SL** 7 75 101.3 113.5 -12.3 1.63 49.7 51.8 101.06 48.8 7 Collins-Johnson-Wesley-Sochan-Castle 3 13 120.0 136.0 -16.0 1.5 55.0 54.5 95.62 41.1 8 Johnson-Champ-Bran-Wemby-Castle 5 19 71.1 131.6 -60.5 1.2 54.3 41.9 95.92 20.1 9 Paul-Johnson-Sochan-Wemby-Castle 4 12 81.0 145.5 -64.5 0.5 52.5 35.3 88.10 16.7
Notes:
- Current starting lineup is good, and considerably better than the old SL. I think some of this can be attributed to Wemby making shots that he wasn't before, but most notable to me are the defensive improvements and the improvement in rebounding on the new SL. DREB% increases from 72.6 to 83.3% with the new SL
- Not surprisingly, TOs seems to be a key driver. All our negative NETRTG lineups feature considerably worse AST/TO ratios. I did not include this in the table, but the AST RATIO also shows a clear separation between the positive NETRTG lineups (all of them have an AST RATIO over 20) versus the netgative NETRTG lineups (all of them below 20)
- REB% really takes a big hit when Collins is in for Wemby. This is one of the reasons I'd like to see Bassey get some more run depending on matchup. He grades out as an elite defensive rebounder if you look at his DREB%. I've seen enough of Zubac and Big Daddy Val put up epic REB (and specifically OREB) numbers. Against big, physical Cs, I think it would make sense for Bassey to get some minutes.
- Something we should have all noticed with our eyes, pace is a lot slower so far this year.
- It was surprising to me to see Sochan show up more on negative lineups than positive ones. Not going to read too much into that quite yet.
- Lineup #9 you'd think would be good defensively, but WOOF it's been bad in the 4 games they played together.
- Lineup #8 is more of a "4 shooter" lineup, but in the 5 games they've featured... shooting has not been good.
IMO, Sochan was the best player in most of the games he played in and nobody else was stepping up. It’s no surprise most of the lineups he’s in has been bad. Nobody was clicking in those early games and Wemby has only started to find his groove. When everyone’s firing on all cylinders, it’s going to be scary as for the league.
We're approximately 20% into the season, so I thought it would be a good time for an update.
Let's start with the good news. The Spurs have the #1 5-man lineup in NETRTG in the entire league, with a minimum of 75 minutes played, with the Paul-Castle-Champ-Barnes-Wemby lineup that is our current starting 5 (assuming Wemby is healthy). You might recall, last year's "Closing 5" lineup of Jones-Vassell-Johnson-Sochan-Wemby was also very good. I actually didn't do an end-of-season update last year, but that lineup finished #3 in the NBA in NETRTG with a minimum of 120 minutes played (finishing with a NETRTG of 20.8).
When Vassell and Sochan are healthy, Mitch (or Pop) may have some difficult political choices to make. I'd be inclined to not try and fix something that is not broken, and leave the starting 5 as is (at least until we can see how 5-man lineups with those two compare). This will obviously be difficult given the stature of Devin and Jeremy on the team.
I've tightened up the requirements since the last update, and we'll go with a minimum of 15 minutes played. I've denoted with an asterisks any lineups which have not played since the last update (such as lineup #1 on the list). I've also replaced EFG% with TS% in the table, because I think that is more widely used and relied upon these days.
Lineup GP Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % TS% Pace PIE 1 Collins-Johnson-Champ-Branham-Castle* 5 17 127.8 86.8 40.9 2.5 48.6 68.9 102.65 69.9 2 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Castle-Wemby **CURRENT SL** 8 76 128.8 93.1 35.7 2.41 55.9 67.3 100.69 67.2 3 Paul-Barnes-Johnson-Sochan-Wemby* 6 26 113.2 81.8 31.4 1.8 63.1 55.6 100.99 70.9 4 Barnes-Johnson-Bassey-Jones-Castle 3 18 120.5 110.5 10.0 1.83 47.4 61.1 104.64 51.5 5 Paul-Barnes-Johnson-Champ-Wemby* 5 18 113.2 105.4 7.8 2.75 52.6 55.8 100.44 61.5 6 Paul-Barnes-Collins-Champ-Castle (Wemby Hurt SL) 5 33 101.4 104.2 -2.8 1.85 55.1 51.5 104.25 49.6 7 Barnes-Collins-Johnson-Vassel-Castle 4 18 118.4 122.5 -4.1 2.5 44.1 62.9 103..06 44.1 8 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **OLD SL** 7 75 101.3 113.5 -12.3 1.63 49.7 51.8 101.06 48.8 9 Johnson-Champ-Bran-Wemby-Castle* 5 19 71.1 131.6 -60.5 1.2 54.3 41.9 95.92 20.1
Notes:
- This is not to pick on Zollins, but you can see the massive impact Wemby has by comparing lineup 2 with lineup 6 where Collins replaces Wemby in the SL. A massive 38.5 swing in NETRTG. A different unit featuring Zollins (lineup 1) hasn't played in the last 4 games, but it was playing very well to start the season (leading the team in NETRTG)
- A Bassey lineup enters the chat in Lineup #4
We really need to figure out some bench units that work. Our SL is doing WORK, but we're obviously 8-8. This isn't a team that should tank... we can easily be in Play-In contention, or maybe better, if we wanted to if we can improve our rotations.
Not going to do a full update, since it's only been a handful of games since the last one... but saw this on Reddit and thought it worth sharing:
Also, after that pathetic outing versus Phoenix, the Spurs SL fell from the #1 five-man lineup in the league to #4 (min 75 minutes played). I'll at least update that line:
GP MIN ORTG DRTG NETRTG AST/TO REB% TS% PACE PIE Paul-Barnes-Champ-Wemby-Castle 13 143 126.8 107.5 19.3 2.71 50.9 64.8 98.67 58.4
It's noteable to me that we are the slowest pace team among the top lineups, which is counter to last year when our best lineups played with significant more pace
I was pissed that we didn’t run on the Lakers. They’re paper thin, and their best two players are old.Not going to do a full update, since it's only been a handful of games since the last one... but saw this on Reddit and thought it worth sharing:
Also, after that pathetic outing versus Phoenix, the Spurs SL fell from the #1 five-man lineup in the league to #4 (min 75 minutes played). I'll at least update that line:
GP MIN ORTG DRTG NETRTG AST/TO REB% TS% PACE PIE Paul-Barnes-Champ-Wemby-Castle 13 143 126.8 107.5 19.3 2.71 50.9 64.8 98.67 58.4
It's noteable to me that we are the slowest pace team among the top lineups, which is counter to last year when our best lineups played with significant more pace
All of our CP3 lineups roll at a slower pace, which isn't surprising. One of my complaints with CP3 is how much he slows the pace in bringing the ball up the court. This may be a CP3 thing, or could be a deliberate coaching directive.
I think it’s a CP3 thing. He slows down the teams he goes to.
Posted in another thread, but thought I'd put here as well. Here are all the two-man combinations involving Wemby. Everyone was excited about the Wemby-Devin combo based on what we saw at the end of last year... but turns out so far this year Devin is actually by far the worst partner for Wemby, rivaled only by Branhim, who is probably the worst player in the entire league.
Problematic when your highest paid player is the worst pairing with your franchise player.
Great chart. Blake has the highest net rating with VW; MB has the worst. For everyone up at night debating Blake vs Branham, that is pretty clear statistically.
Blake deserves a lot more minutes, he barely played in the second half last night
This is the year and the time to see what's going on with Blake, especially with Jones injured. That said, he still makes some low bbq decisions but he's trying very hard and could easily find a limited but long career.
I'd give the Vassell/Wemby combo a little larger sample size than 125 minutes before making any declarative statements, especially since Vassell has been in and out of the lineup and dealing with injury. I don't know that he's had much time to get into a rhythm this season with anyone. Still, -20.5 is a huge number.
I agree that they need more time. We're a third into the season, but 125 minutes is only 10% of the amount of time (1,222 minutes) they played together last season.
Sample size + 2 man lineups lack context since Devin isn't playing with the starting 5.Posted in another thread, but thought I'd put here as well. Here are all the two-man combinations involving Wemby. Everyone was excited about the Wemby-Devin combo based on what we saw at the end of last year... but turns out so far this year Devin is actually by far the worst partner for Wemby, rivaled only by Branhim, who is probably the worst player in the entire league.
Problematic when your highest paid player is the worst pairing with your franchise player.
Holy Spurminator, nice find. I didn't even know a negative 100 NetRtg was possible
But this does raise the matter of Devin's defense. It's just taken for granted on this website that Devin is a good defender, because that's what he was touted as when drafted... but in reality he's 13th Percentile in CraftedDPM over the last two seasons and is even worse to start this year, 7th Percentile in CraftedDPM. His CraftedDPM, DDarko, and DBPM have all gotten worse every single season of his career. He's even earned the dreaded "Sieve" badge on his CraftedNBA profile https://craftednba.com/players/devin-vassell
He needs, and deserves, more time this season... but there are a lot of things to be concerned about. Will post this in the Devin thread so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
Almost exactly half of Wemby-Vassell minutes (125) also involve Keldon (63), during which they combine for a -36.9 NetRtg.
The most frequent 3rd partner with Wemby and Devin though is Castle (64), and posts a -28.5. Wemby-Devin-CP3 (57 minutes) is a lot better, with a -3.9. Devin and Wemby have a Negative NetRtg in all but one 3-man combination, Wemby-Devin-Sochan (4 games, 36 minutes) with a +12.3.
If we look at 4-man lineups, the lineups with Wemby+Devin+2 other starters aren't that great so far either. Dev-Wem-CP3-Steph (35 min) is a -16.7. Barnes-Dev-Wemby-Steph (26 min) is -30.6. Dev-Wemby-CP3-Barnes (18 min) is good, at +23.4. Dev-Wemby-Champ-Castle (18 min) is -47.0.
Like I said elsewhere... Devin needs and deserves more time... but if folks are being honest with themselves, Devin has had a rough start to the season (injuries aside). His shot has looked great at times, but he's just not really fitting with the team a lot of times. I'm willing to just chalk that up to rust at this point and see how it plays out... but I'm only willing to let it play out this season. Like LeBowen, I think this is the critical year for Devin. Injury and inconsistency are kind of rough.
Waited until 27 games, which is roughly the 1/3 mark of the season, for this update. Cutoff set at 20 minutes, which is just enough to sneak in yesterday's starting lineup.
Lineup GP Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % TS% Pace PIE 1 Paul-Mamu-Champ-Wesley-Wemby 5 32 118.5 81.8 36.6 2.44 56.3 60.7 99.02 68.5 2 Paul-Barnes-Vassell-Sochan-Wemby **NEW SL** 3 20 122.4 87.5 34.9 2.57 55.0 70.0 113.75 72.9 3 Paul-Barnes-Keldon-Sochan-Wemby 6 26 113.2 81.8 31.4 1.80 63.1 55.6 100.99 70.9 4 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Castle-Wemby **OLD SL** 14 151 125.5 107.1 18.4 2.65 51.0 63.7 98.33 57.9 5 Barnes-Collins-Keldon-Vassell-Castle 7 24 125.5 107.5 17.9 3.25 45.7 64.1 103.71 53.3 6 Paul-Barnes-Collins-Champ-Castle 8 42 106.7 105.5 1.2 2.00 54.3 54.1 103.18 51.2 7 Paul-Barnes-Keldon-Champ-Wemby 7 22 108.7 113.3 -4.6 3.00 51.1 52.7 99.70 53.0 8 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **ORIGINAL SL** 11 97 102.9 110.0 -7.1 1.70 51.4 54.8 100.13 50.2
Some observations:
- the new SL, which debuted last night, is promising for one big thing that stands out to me: PACE! By far the fastest pace of any lineup we trot out. While the sample size is still too small to read too much into it, hopefully this sets a trend.
- The new SL also has something in common with Lineups 1-3: all feature an AST% of > 75% (87.5% for the new SL. Lineup 6 is the only other with an AST% over 75% at 90.9).
- Our top 3 lineups also have something else in common: DEFENSE and REBOUNDING. We know that defense is a deliberate point of emphasis for our team iden y and this shows that the concept is successful (our best defensive lineups being our most successful lineups overall). They're also really good at rebounding (which is typically positively correlated with DRTG). All good signs.
- That original SL is our worst qualifying lineup. Hopefully we aren't forced to go back to that.
One game took Devin/Wemby from -20 net rating to -12. Pretty huge swing.
I really hope Castle reverts back to what we were seeing earlier in the year but I'm glad we made this switch. I don't mind our drafting strategy to date, but we drastically need to pivot to get some playmakers and shooters.
Didn't know where else to post this.
Super duper small sample size, so definitely take this stat with a ship load of salt.
That does mean they were slightly worse against PDX than in the proceeding 20 minutes together
Yeah, not too much to read into this yet... but it looks good so far!
32 games in, roughly 40% of the season. Here's an update, min 30 minutes played
Lineup GP Min Off Rtg Def Rtg Net Rtg Ast/TO Reb % TS% Pace PIE 1 Paul-Mamu-Champ-Wesley-Wemby 5 32 118.5 81.8 36.6 2.44 56.3 60.7 99.02 68.5 2 Paul-Johnson-Jones-Champ-Wemby 7 33 136.8 104.5 32.2 3.86 52.8 73.8 98.58 65.5 3 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Castle-Wemby **OLD SL** 14 151 125.5 107.1 18.4 2.65 51.0 63.7 98.33 57.9 4 Paul-Barnes-Vassell-Sochan-Wemby **NEW SL** 8 96 115.9 104.0 11.9 3.14 45.8 60.9 99.90 58.7 6 Paul-Barnes-Collins-Champ-Castle 8 42 106.7 105.5 1.2 2.00 54.3 54.1 103.18 51.2 8 Paul-Barnes-Champ-Sochan-Wemby **ORIGINAL SL** 13 100 102.9 108.3 -5.4 1.65 52.3 54.7 99.83 51.0
Observations:
- New SL has rapidly dipped below the Old SL in Net Rating, which shouldn't surprise us if you've watched our first quarters with this group. Positives of this group: good defense, low TOs. Major red flag: this lineup gets dominated on the boards for whatever reason. This may simply be due to Wemby's recent rebounding malaise.
- Everyone seems to hate the CP3-Tre Jones lineups, but at least this one (#2) seems to work really well. What stands out is that it's strong defensively despite featuring Keldon Johnson and an undersized backcourt. Go figure. Takes good care of the ball, decent rebounding, but probably inflated by some hot shooting moments.
- We're just a team without pace, in general. Last season, our best lineups had high pace numbers, we are just a slower paced team - largely because of CP3. This is clearly by design, but I don't particularly love it.
- Personally, I wanted to stick with the old SL, and I'd still go back to it now. All of the rotations just flow better that way. I think Sochan's long term best role is as a bench guy anyway, and I'm 80% sure I want Vassell's future role to be on another team - so let's get Castle and Champ back in there.
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