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I know the draft options weren't all that enticing, but the cupboard looks empty in prospective playoffs rotational talent..The days of turning the 29th/30th picks into borderline All-Stars/ elite role players seem well and truly over..
Their failure during those years to come away with anything resembling a reliable second or third option-- a dynamic three dimensional scorer & rim-pressuring dribble driver-- is the root cause of this predicament.
Vassel & Sochan-- our touted core pieces, not to speak of Branham and Wesley-- are unplayable flotsam for the likes of Boston and OKC, and it is no coincidence that even this flawed team barely misses a beat without them. Time to fire up the trade machine..
I know the draft options weren't all that enticing, but the cupboard looks empty in prospective playoffs rotational talent..The days of turning the 29th/30th picks into borderline All-Stars/ elite role players seem well and truly over..
BWrong baby
Primo was such a horrible reach.
but man 2022 was really bad. To think they could have Jalen Williams and another rotation piece to basically just Sochan is depressing
I actually disagree with this statement to a degree. Besides Primo over Sengun (which this idiot right here was clearly able to see was the far superior player) I don’t think we whiffed at all with our players. I think Vassell and Sochan were the correct picks. Long post ahead. Sorry
I think our player development is just absolute though. Funny because it used to be world renowned, but after losing people to other teams or just other organizations catching up to us, we are behind the 8-ball when it comes to developing players.
And my main gripe about it is that we don’t have clear tangible goals for our ing players and instead just wing it. Tangible goals for Vassell: stay healthy, hit open shots, learn the defensive scheme, and play hard nose defense. That’s it. I don’t want him creating his own shot. I don’t want him running pick n rolls. I don’t want him taking step backs. I want him to focus on learning the game and learning a simple role. That’s it. He’s a role player. Give him role player responsibilities from the get go. Nowhere in Vassells development should he have EVER averaged 16 shots a game. That’s MC and he isn’t a MC player. He’s a role player. But we tried to Kawhi him and rushed the whole ing process. Vassell has nobody (and the rock means nobody) to learn from other than DDR on how to be a shooting guard in the league and I love DDR as a person but that’s not who i wanted Vassell to learn the game from. Ideally it should’ve been Danny. Or even hire Big Balls Beli as an assistant coach. Someone who knows the game from a role player status.
And Sochan was all kinds of ed up. Some idiot decided it would be a good idea to play him as PG. Another idiot agreed and actually played him as PG. Lots of idiots here praised how much that helped his development and bc we are run like Sacramento Kings, we ruined a pretty sure fire prospect. Sochan was known as a hustle role player with instincts to rebound and play hard nose defense. It’s really hard to up that type of prospect. Except we did. Bc again we tried to MC Sochan for no reason. It was just a stupid decision and a waste of a year for his development. People complain that Sochans numbers look good bc he gets a lot of open looks and dunks from Wemby. But that’s exactly how we should use him. All Sochan had to do for development was again simple . Learn the defensive system, play hard on defense, hustle like a maniac, and pick and choose your opportunities on offense. Then you add a corner 3 to his game. That’s it. Just the corner 3. And then in like year 5 you can add some secondary play making opportunities. But instead of they just presented everything to him at once and said here you go, be a PG but we wont sign an actual veteran PG to teach you how to become one. We wont sign any veterans at all to teach you any aspect of the game. we wont even stay on one position for you to learn. Here’s a ball and there’s the hoop. Good luck.
At the end of the day, it isn’t that our players are stupid. I mean they are, but it’s bc we are a stupid organization who just believes well Pop can do everything by himself. We don’t need high level Assitant Coaches. We don’t need smart savvy veterans who know the system. Pop complained about the kids not knowing the old system. Well did he sign any of the vet players who played in our system To teach them? Nope. We are the Sacramento Kings of the NBA and frankly I’m sick of it
Great post, KobesAchilles. I can't believe we've dethroned the Sacramento Kings as the Sacramento Kings of the NBA LOL
It's easy to say we should have taken Sengun, Hali and JWill... but what would those players be with the exact organizational flaws in regards to development? We're lucky that Wemby is just naturally gifted enough to overcome this , but honestly the same criticisms apply (see: How We Failed Wemby, and How We Can Fix It).
It's easy to say that without Wemby we'd be the worst team in the league... but without CP3 and Barnes we might still be the worst team in the league. It's amazing what having two competent, but not even all that great, vets can do.
Maybe someone will hit up Brian Wright's pager while he's on his ski trip and tell him there is work to do.
Their scouting comes across as strange to me. Yes in past drafts I killed them for Primo over Sengun, then the next year pre-draft identified Jalen Williams as the real player prospect people were pretending or imagining Primo was. But whatever.
Take the last draft. Everyone pretty much, including me, has now come around on Castle at least being a reasonable pick if not a great choice. But at least reasonable and that's fine. But what's strange are the stories the Spurs put out about how they had a scout at EVERY Castle practice and game. Like, that's cool and all, but you knew there was a fair chance of an extra first from Toronto and the second round ... After you've made up your mind that Castle is awesome, maybe go scout other players in person? Were you really going to learn that much or need to see every single practice?
Because while I know people are loving the idea of the Milwaukee pick and swaps of 30 and 31 because Minnesota is looking mid and Edwards is squawking ... I'm not forgetting that moving away from #8 is just as much about being certain no one available could improve this team just as much as it was about the expected but not guaranteed future Wemby team that will need cheap talent and the Minnesota deal could fit the bill.
Was there no one else to improve this roster or did the front office not scout thoroughly, partially because they couldn't take their eyes off Castle?
I would give them a pass and chalk it up to COVID restriction during 20-22 seasons. Optimisictally in 2 years you could say that from 22-24 draft they have built the foundation of an all time defensive team.
Great post, you pinpointed the biggest issue, developing players out of their projected roles.
I actually think player development for limited role players is fine.
Players with a defined role like Tre, Champagnie or even Bassey are doing fine considering their abilities.
Issues start when they try to develop them into something more, like you described.
Trying to develop Keldon and Vassell into something more was fine because we were tanking, and who knows, every once in a while one of those role players explodes and exceeds all expectations.
Devin and Keldon didn't, which is fine.
But what's not fine is that they're still developing them as if they're going to be complete offensive weapons at some point.
They had to be sat down and explained that they're not main characters, not even close to it and that if they're to have a successful career with the Spurs they had to take a step back on offense and improve on defense.
As for Sochan, they always had this weird "I can fix him" mentality and an obsession to develop fundamentally flawed players into something more.
I was the biggest critic of Jeremy this summer because he made no improvements from first to second year, mostly due to point guard experiment.
At the start of this season he made me change my mind, he played exactly in the way you described his ideal development, but over the past month he reverted back into last season's Sochan.
Drafting Castle was fine because it's such a horrible class, but I'm honestly sick of all these "he'll be great if he develops his shot" prospects. I'd rather not draft anyone than have another non-shooter on the roster next season.
Another nephew isn't happening, get over it.
Wrote about coaching after the Bulls game, I just refuse to believe that NBA team's coaching staff doesn't see the things even casual fans see and self-sabotages themselves in most games out of ignorance.
I'd honestly like to see a completely new coaching staff. We need an experienced head coach who's going to bring like 5 of his people in. Too bad Pop didn't want to step down while there were great coaches available and decided he prefers dying on the job.
Now there's noone who would surely be an improvement.
Also, there are no more excuses for Brian Wright.
Great salesman, got the most out of our mediocre outgoing assets, but his hoarding tendencies are actively hurting the team.
The team just isn't functional without a legit backup big, not having one hurts everyone's development.
Having 13 FRPs, 4 FRP swaps, 18 SRPs and not using any to get a backup big is just atrocious.
We're probably not making the play-in, but if we do miss out by a couple of games it's going to be Wright's fault just because of backup big situation.
Even if he gets one, it should've been done months ago and we would've been way over .500 now.
In before Mr comes in and tells us that we shouldn't be " ing" about our swing and a miss draft picks.
Last edited by NASpurs; 01-09-2025 at 07:08 AM.
our player development sucks? I mean just look at how we're getting Wemby ready for a physical game. This Spurs staff member is clearly stronger than Giannis and Brook Lopez
Vassell did have role player responsibilities from the get go. It wasn't until the team got rid of everyone to tank for Wemby that his role expanded (and switched from SF to SG). Who on that '22-'23 team should've taken the most shots, if not him or Keldon? IIRC, there were people suggesting he should be in the running for MIP that year until he got hurt. Then in his 4th year, he tried to expand his playmaking with Wemby, shot creation, and improve his rim pressures. For all his flaws (and supposed bad development), this is his first year taking a step back statistically.
The point Sochan experiment lasted roughly 20 games, so its negative impact is overblown, imo. Why sign a vet PG to mentor him (especially w/ Devonte' Graham on the team) when it was always a temporary move? The goal of his development last year was to take advantage of smaller players teams tried to hide on him. He had varying success doing so, but not a bad strategy overall. He also improved his 3pt % on higher volume. IF his 3pt % made a similar tick up this year, along with his other improvements, are we still having the same conversation about him?
I agree that lack of development has been an issue overall... this team would look so much better if Makai was the legit three level scorer some hoped he could be. But I also think it's easier to draft and develop players into specific roles/skillsets once you have your foundational piece(s) and know what those roles are. We went from "get rid of everyone except Wemby" last year, to now being able to point out two to three player types that could propel the team into the playoffs, if added.
My main issue is the team still has an "anyone on the team can score/initiate the offense" mentality. It irks me to hear players claim they have a deep team and that any player can go off on any given night. Imo, that approach just leads to the ball being in the wrong player's hands during critical moments of the game; whether it be late game scenarios or during momentum swings. It also excuses players not named Wemby for not producing consistently.
Right...because all of the people who were that good a player development...don't work for the Spurs anymore.
One of the talking points around the spurs is their "player development", which just isn't true anymore. It's name brand only. Almost none of the actual humans who worked with the players and developed them are in the building for the Spurs anymore. Over the last 4 years almost none of our young players have improved in anything.
You're probably right in a vacuum, but if we make better moves in those drafts it's almost certain that we don't get Wemby, so it's a pretty big moot point. It's what we do from here with our draft capital. Clearly we havn't been shown to draft well lately, so unlike most, I'm down for moving the capital + players for some proven pieces this year/this offseason. I think outside of Wemby and CP3 (unless he wants to, gotta honor the gentleman agreement otherwise no vets will come to us in the future), everyone should be in play.
It's not a moot point because it shows that the front office isn't capable of making difficult decisions.
It's impossible to have a perfect draft record, but not knowing when it's time to pull the plug on a player is the issue.
We could've easily had another FRP for Keldon during his 22ppg tank commander season, there were plenty of teams fooled by it. He's even an Olympic gold medalist.
Castle shouldn't be in play because trading away a rookie after a couple of months is a bad look for future drafts, but others should definitely be available.I think outside of Wemby and CP3 (unless he wants to, gotta honor the gentleman agreement otherwise no vets will come to us in the future), everyone should be in play.
The issue is that by now everyone realized they're all awful to mediocre and they won't be worth much.
For example last season and even in the summer before they got Atkinson there was a lot of noise about Mitc and Garland being incompatible.
Devin still had a lot of value around the league, our coaching staff and GM had to be aware he's not actually the guy most people thought he was.
We could've traded Devin and in my opinion not that many assets for Garland.
Or we could've easily had Markkanen with Hawks picks which some of us wanted to do, but 90% of the fanbase was screaming about golden tickets that will surely be top5 in the lottery.
Markkanen did decide to stay in Utah, but if the offer was right there's zero doubt Aigne would've cashed him in.
And so on. Most good teams these days are good because they found a legit player or two when their value was low. Our front office does that with reclamation projects like Champagnie, but not with potential all-star level player.
this is what it really boils down to.
People keep bringing up this argument, but after tanking in 22/23, the Spurs got Wemby, a clear cut generational talent. And despite him having a better rookie season than anyone could have had any right to expect, the Spurs won 22 games in 23/24, exactly the same amount as the season before. So that kind of math just doesn't track ...
Not even 22 with supposed second, third and fourt best player because they sat in those final few weeks of the season, Spurs won 4 games without them.
Devin played more than 30 minutes in just 3 wins last season. Enough said.
Agree with this, however, if there was an option to go back in time and correct any of the previous draft/staff mistakes mentioned, when it comes down to it I don't think any one here on this forum would change a thing if it meant increase risk of losing wemby. I think landing wemby allowed this organization a pass for the meanwhile and focus should be on the decisions made from then on out. So far Castle has been a plus. Player development however is another story.
OP may be 100% right, but at the exact same time if PATFO was “better”, we wouldn’t get Wemby.
Guys, we got Wemby because 2 seasons ago we were one of the WORST teams in the league. Plain and simple. We want to have our cake and eat it too. The pieces we got (DV KJ Sochan) are just not THAT good. They’re not moving the needle towards wins. And that’s what lead to Wemby. Just because now Wemby is a top 5-10 player doesn’t mean these guys are going to take huge leaps outside of who they are.
Let’s look at the reality of the situation. We have a very young superstar who is way ahead of schedule. A very old yet talented passer who we just added this year. And a bunch of B- players. Castle and Sochan have a brighter future, the rest have plateaued.
If anything the Dejounte trade needs to be commended. It got us a potential GOAT, and some extra FRPs. Or go further back, thank you Kawhi for showing your true colors. That also got us a potential GOAT, and more FRPs.
Any other complaining pre-Wemby lacks perspective and is therefore moot. Post-Wemby: PATFO made the right pick with Castle. They brought in 2 amazing vets, 1 on his own free will with no rings, to teach our young guys. I’ll be keeping an eye on what’s to come in the offseason.
Not trying to make excuses, but I think the injuries have just finally caught up with Vassell. He doesn't have the same athleticism or spring that he used to so he's slow on the defensive side of the ball, and his shots don't seem to have legs under them anymore.
I've noticed he developed a tendency to crouch and lean forward on his three-point attempts, almost like he is forcing it towards the basket. And his patented mid-range seems to come up short an awful lot. The form is there and the shots look soft, but still not finding the threads.
Yes, he still has good stretches here and there...but I'm no longer counting on him becoming the next Rudy Gay or anything like that.
I agree 100% and I will take it a step further. The reason the Spurs end up having to have role players try and do stuff they clearly can't, is because they are not big players in free agency and trades, so they have absolutely no way to bring in the types of players who have those skillsets, thus forcing them to try and make their players learn skillsets that are beyond them. The knicks said "OG is hurt alot we can't rely on him to make it fully through the playoffs guarding the other teams best perimeter player so it let's just trade all our pieces in for Bridges that way we have two instead of one." The Spurs say "we never do big trades and we don't want to overpay for really good players so let's just keep giving the ball to Devin and try to make him a dynamic scoring threat even though he doesn't really have any of the tools to be a dynamic scoring threat".
Trying to think of any substantial player development since the Timmy, Tony and Manu days. It really looks like those 3 were the last player developers in south Texas.
Can't say that Derrick and Dejounte didn't develop nicely.
One thing I always wonder about is Derrick's shooting. He was a career 34% 3pt shooter before his first summer with Boston.
At 39% since while almost doubling the volume. That has to be a red flag when it comes to Spurs development staff.
Keldon was a very good pick for being selected 29th as was Tre Jones at 41. Even so KJ and Tre were drafted in 2019/2020.
Wemby doesn't count because every FO in the NBA takes him first.
Spurs draft god era started in 1999 with Manu and ended in 2017 with Derrick White. People need to stop living in the past.
Development staff is one possible reason for the improvement, but there could be others. Is there a way to look up how open his shots have been with each team?
It's also possible, and highly likely imo, that Boston does a much better job of creating and running offensive sets than the Spurs. That would be an indictment of the coaches, not the player development staff.
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