Devin Vassell has to go asap.

[Raven]

Lamelo Ball is 4th in the league in scoring average. His team has the 3rd worst win %. His scoring more points does not have a causal relationship with the Hornets winning basketball games.

If a player scored every point for the team and the amount is bigger than the opposition yes, that team would win. However, you ignore that if a player scored every point for the team - they would be extremely unlikely to outscore the opposition, and your posited causal relationship immediately falls apart. The key part of the scenario you presented is not that an individual player scored a lot of points, it's that the team's points are more than the opponents (with a perfect correlation). You can just look at a simple scatter plot of the Top Scorers and their Team Win %s and see that your hypothesis is ing stupid.

causal doesn't mean binary.

[Obstructed_View]

I'd rather have Jimmy Butler.

[John B]

Devin atrocious defense should put him to the 2nd squad and Champ to 1st. I think Champ could’ve help defend Desmond Bane tonight, not to mention a really dramatic drop on Champ’s production not being in the starting line up.

[z0sa]

Devin's play in the 3rd is the only reason we didn't lose at home by 35+ tbh

Not defending him, the way he plays defense is straight matador style running to spots rather than sticking to the guy he's supposed to be guarding. I didn't really notice it before a lot of people here started pointing out how much he's dropped off - was taking it for granted. He really has. He's gone from a guy I considered slightly above average at the start of last season to groaning any time whoever he's guarding has the ball and starts dribbling.

[RC_Drunkford]

Devin atrocious defense should put him to the 2nd squad and Champ to 1st. I think Champ could’ve help defend Desmond Bane tonight, not to mention a really dramatic drop on Champ’s production not being in the starting line up.

he was on Desmond Bane like crazy in the first half. Didn't really watch after the 3rd, but he was guarding Bane well before that.

[scott]

It's really strange. I do think Vassell's defense was a lot better in the 1st half last night, and he wasn't doing anything on the offensive end.

In the 3rd, he really was the only guy keeping us close but his defense disappeared. Almost like he's not able to do both or something.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd rather have Jimmy Butler.

I’d make that trade. The Spurs have a chance to be significant now. We shouldn’t squander it. Butler would elevate us more than Vassell can.

[LeBowen]

I’d make that trade. The Spurs have a chance to be significant now. We shouldn’t squander it. Butler would elevate us more than Vassell can.

The issue is that Butler wants an extension and he'll be 36 before the next season starts.
I'd be fine with Butler for this and the next season, but no way I'd pay him $50M at age 37.
Not to mention that he doesn't care about regular season and doesn't fit the team because we desperately need shooters.

[Obstructed_View]

The issue is that Butler wants an extension and he'll be 36 before the next season starts.
I'd be fine with Butler for this and the next season, but no way I'd pay him $50M at age 37.
Not to mention that he doesn't care about regular season and doesn't fit the team because we desperately need shooters.

Agree. If we were going to do that then we'd have been better off trading for Dame.

[Slippy]

he was on Desmond Bane like crazy in the first half. Didn't really watch after the 3rd, but he was guarding Bane well before that.

I stopped watching after the 3rd. His d was good and he pretty much kept the team in the game that 3rd quarter. Think you said it another thread. The coach not backing him for a replay after that huge block on Banes was insane.

spurs perimeter D became non-existen to finish the 3rd. 14 nil run for mempis with around 3mins left. Spurs forgot how to score. Game over.

[RC_Drunkford]

It's really strange. I do think Vassell's defense was a lot better in the 1st half last night, and he wasn't doing anything on the offensive end.

In the 3rd, he really was the only guy keeping us close but his defense disappeared. Almost like he's not able to do both or something.

Spurs players got tired when the Grizzlies made their run. Memphis is the highest paced team in the league and plays a 11-man rotation for that exact reason. They sub players in and out all the time throughout the game. Meanwhile Mitch plays 9 players and sticks to Pop's subs ution patterns.

[scott]

Spurs players got tired when the Grizzlies made their run. Memphis is the highest paced team in the league and plays a 11-man rotation for that exact reason. They sub players in and out all the time throughout the game. Meanwhile Mitch plays 9 players and sticks to Pop's subs ution patterns.

I agree with that, but the phenomenon I noted was before that Grizzles run (which coincided with Wemby's return to the game late in the 3rd). Before that, Devin was going off on the offensive end, but his defense kind of disappeared. I'm okay with that though, if Devin is going to be a high efficiency scorer, then we can live with him being a poor defender. It's when his poor defense gets coupled with low efficiency offense that it's a problem.

[RC_Drunkford]

I agree with that, but the phenomenon I noted was before that Grizzles run (which coincided with Wemby's return to the game late in the 3rd). Before that, Devin was going off on the offensive end, but his defense kind of disappeared. I'm okay with that though, if Devin is going to be a high efficiency scorer, then we can live with him being a poor defender. It's when his poor defense gets coupled with low efficiency offense that it's a problem.

I think that's really just conditioning. He was playing great defense on Bane in the first quarter. Probably got winded.

[scott]

Going to come to Devin's defense a little bit with some minutes breakdowns.

There is a Reddit thread out there where people have noted that Vassell, Keldon and Branham have the worst +/- on the team. Coincidently, these are also the ONLY 3 players on the team with a negative NETRTG when paired with Wemby.

Wemby's net rating without Devin on the court: +9.9
Wemby's net rating with Devin on the court: -4.65

However, someone pointed out that a lot of Devin's minutes with Wemby are ALSO with one or more of Keldon, Branham or Castle. So I dug a little deeper:

Wembanyama and Vassell have played 460 minutes together (-4.65 NETRTG)

Among those 460 minutes:

• 176 of them (38%) come without Keldon, Branham or Castle (+12.53 NETRTG)
• 139 of them (30%) come with only Castle (+0.75)
• 86 of them (19%) come with only Keldon (-23.15)
• 9 of them (2%) come with only Branham (-66.7)
• 48 of them (10%) come with Steph and Keldon (-31.29)
• 1 minute (>1%) come with Steph and Bran (-250.0)

We are missing 1 minute in there somewhere, probably just due to rounding

• 134 of those 176 minutes where it's Wemby + Vassell without one of the other 3 have come as part of the previous starting lineup of CP3+Vassell+Sochan+Barnes+Wemby which has posted a +15.5
• Another 10 of those 176 minutes have come with Champ in for Barnes, and have posted a -13.6
• Beyond that it's just a bunch of odd combinations playing spot minutes

So there is a very strong argument here that it is the Keldon + Vassell combo that is a huge problem

• Wemby + Vassell without Keldon is a +5.31 (325 minutes, 71% of the Wemby + Devin minutes)
• Wemby + Vassell + Keldon is a -27.89 (135 minutes)
• Wemby + Keldon without Vassell is a +7.49 (316 minutes)
• Vassell + Keldon without Wemby is a -18.41 (211 minutes)

We already know that Castle + Sochan are unplayable together (-11.94 over 172 minutes), but we should also come to the conclusion that Vassell and Keldon are also not playable together (-22.17 over 346 minutes)

[RC_Drunkford]

makes sense since the wing defense would suck big time with both of them playing at the same time, which is probably why their net rating is that bad.

[scott]

makes sense since the wing defense would suck big time with both of them playing at the same time, which is probably why their net rating is that bad.

Our assist rate also drops when the two of them are on the court (not surprisingly considering we're talking about Devin and Keldon here ). Of the four 5-man lineups with them with over 20 minutes, only 1 of them has an assist rate of over 75%, which is what all of our best lineups have.

[DAF86]

Devin has been pretty damn consistent these past games, tbh.

[scott]

Devin has been pretty damn consistent these past games, tbh.

In point total, maybe, but not in efficiency. Even TimGPT has been handing him C- and D grades. Today was different, he was an A player. If he could play like this consistently, I'd be a fan.

[KingKev]

Nice showcase for DV. Keep it up! Feb 6th is creeping up.

[z0sa]

Devin played like he should every night. No more wide open bricks and ball-stopping. Shoot open shots, play hard defense and pass the ball around. It's truly not rocket science.

That said, after missing the entire off-season, training camp, pre-season and several games early on it's not too unexpected he's only hitting his stride now. Just keep it up, dude!

[spurraider21]

i agree. he should keep shooting 70% from the field and 83% from 3

[Tyronn Lue]

In point total, maybe, but not in efficiency. Even TimGPT has been handing him C- and D grades. Today was different, he was an A player. If he could play like this consistently, I'd be a fan.

Inconsistency is a large reason players are B and lower. Playing like A means most of the time, not just the results of a game.

[CGD]

At a minimum, I think he’s stabilized his trade value.

[100%duncan]

What I would give for Dev to average 22 ppg with this solid defense. Forget the lights out shooting (as long as he's getting his 22+ on above league average splits), the defense this game was phenomenal. But alas, this is the ride with Dev.

[RC_Drunkford]

His best game of the season so far. Made the right reads, shot lights out and played consistent good defense.