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  1. #2201
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    Can this thread get to 100 pages without a deal?
    Looking like a foregone conclusion.... that it'll get to a hundred without a deal.

  2. #2202
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    So a few folks have been reaching out checking if I'm okay. I am fine, and I appreciate you checking. I've just had limited time lately and have been into some other things. I've watched basically every Spurs game with varying degrees of attention.

    This season is going about how I would expect it to go. The Spurs are mediocre, and I'm fine with that. This season is like watching plants grow. It's not exciting while it's happening, but it's a necessary part of the process. I think the Spurs are getting some answers for how they can build the team moving forward. Some of those answers are disappointing, but it was important that they are taking the time to verify that. Some are exciting.

    My overall stance hasn't changed: The Spurs should be looking at acquiring players for the roles they currently want them to fill and not acquire them for the roles they hope they'll be able to fill in the future. If the Spurs want a second option who can step up in the playoffs, they need to go for older vets who have already shown they're good at that. If they want a guy who can grow with Wemby for the next five years, they should be looking at high draft picks. What I don't think they should do is try to split that difference by paying a premium for young vets who haven't proven anything but who also want max contracts.

    As a result, a Fox trade doesn't really appeal right now. I think in any major trade, you have to ask yourself: What is the path to true contention going forward? I don't think Wemby and Fox get you there. I think you're still chasing that star wing, and while the Spurs may still have the assets and flexibility to get them there, I don't think they have the window to take advantage of it. I believe Wemby still needs at the very least another year after this one for seasoning, and so you end up with basically three max contracts and a lot fewer assets to play around that in a league where bloated salaries are getting harder to collect.

    So for me, I think the team should be planning for 2026. Hopefully, they have a third year of draft luck and Castle continues to develop. The bigger thing is maintaining a clean cap going into that summer and combining that, the trade assets and the progression of the key youngsters into a roster with an actual window. Yes, that means there is more pain or at least mediocrity ahead, but it's necessary. The Spurs CANNOT afford to mess up the timing of this push. That is how you end up losing stars.

    In terms of what kind of opportunities would cause me to want the Spurs to break off the 2026 path, there are only a handful of players. I still think that Curry, Lebron and Durant would be worth it in terms of old vets who can still get it done if put into ideal conditions. I'm excluding obvious prime MVP candidates like Jokic, SGA and Giannis (and yes, I'm glad people are realizing that he's actually a POS -- he's been that since before he got into the NBA). When talking about young PGs who I think could form a real championship foundation with Wemby, the list basically begins and ends with Morant. If you have Ja and Vic, you can go into "fill in the pieces" mode. Short of him, the surrounding team needs a lot more growth to make it work.

    So we'll see what happens. If there is a Fox trade, I don't personally expect it to have the results folks want it to. If it happens in the off-season in conjunction with some good moves, then I might end up feeling differently. In terms of other deadline moves, I kind of think the team should just stand pat. They've lost a few too many games for me to think a win-now move makes sense. But I also wouldn't want them to sell off Paul or Barnes and forgo the growth their presence facilitates. IF some team is willing to offer something great for Vassell or Johnson, it might make sense to listen. I'm sure it would be a task to sell taking a step back to Vic, but depending on how that deal goes, 2025 cap space might be an option.

    As for me, I'll try to be around a bit more often. I still think SpursTalk is really the only forum to go for Spurs discussion. I'm glad to see Teeds is back and that folks seem to be doing well. That said, we're kind of at a point of the year where we're just spinning our wheels. When things actually change, there will be more to talk about outside of the cycle of frustration some folks seem to be in right now.

    Glad you are doing well and it's great to see you back! Was thinking of you while Middleton was showing out.

    Also, I still strongly disagree with the direction you see, but that's what makes the discussion fun.

    I do find it interesting that you bring up Ja as the guy you'd break form for, since I actually think they're the closest comp to each other. Fox is slightly better today than Ja, Ja is slightly ahead of where Fox was at the same age, Fox is only 20 months older. So, that's an interesting proposition to me. They have some slightly different strengths, but have the same weaknesses (namely, 3P%)

    Last edited by scott; 02-01-2025 at 02:48 PM.

  3. #2203
    Erryday I'm Hustlin' Robz4000's Avatar
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    So a few folks have been reaching out checking if I'm okay. I am fine, and I appreciate you checking. I've just had limited time lately and have been into some other things. I've watched basically every Spurs game with varying degrees of attention.

    This season is going about how I would expect it to go. The Spurs are mediocre, and I'm fine with that. This season is like watching plants grow. It's not exciting while it's happening, but it's a necessary part of the process. I think the Spurs are getting some answers for how they can build the team moving forward. Some of those answers are disappointing, but it was important that they are taking the time to verify that. Some are exciting.

    My overall stance hasn't changed: The Spurs should be looking at acquiring players for the roles they currently want them to fill and not acquire them for the roles they hope they'll be able to fill in the future. If the Spurs want a second option who can step up in the playoffs, they need to go for older vets who have already shown they're good at that. If they want a guy who can grow with Wemby for the next five years, they should be looking at high draft picks. What I don't think they should do is try to split that difference by paying a premium for young vets who haven't proven anything but who also want max contracts.

    As a result, a Fox trade doesn't really appeal right now. I think in any major trade, you have to ask yourself: What is the path to true contention going forward? I don't think Wemby and Fox get you there. I think you're still chasing that star wing, and while the Spurs may still have the assets and flexibility to get them there, I don't think they have the window to take advantage of it. I believe Wemby still needs at the very least another year after this one for seasoning, and so you end up with basically three max contracts and a lot fewer assets to play around that in a league where bloated salaries are getting harder to collect.

    So for me, I think the team should be planning for 2026. Hopefully, they have a third year of draft luck and Castle continues to develop. The bigger thing is maintaining a clean cap going into that summer and combining that, the trade assets and the progression of the key youngsters into a roster with an actual window. Yes, that means there is more pain or at least mediocrity ahead, but it's necessary. The Spurs CANNOT afford to mess up the timing of this push. That is how you end up losing stars.

    In terms of what kind of opportunities would cause me to want the Spurs to break off the 2026 path, there are only a handful of players. I still think that Curry, Lebron and Durant would be worth it in terms of old vets who can still get it done if put into ideal conditions. I'm excluding obvious prime MVP candidates like Jokic, SGA and Giannis (and yes, I'm glad people are realizing that he's actually a POS -- he's been that since before he got into the NBA). When talking about young PGs who I think could form a real championship foundation with Wemby, the list basically begins and ends with Morant. If you have Ja and Vic, you can go into "fill in the pieces" mode. Short of him, the surrounding team needs a lot more growth to make it work.

    So we'll see what happens. If there is a Fox trade, I don't personally expect it to have the results folks want it to. If it happens in the off-season in conjunction with some good moves, then I might end up feeling differently. In terms of other deadline moves, I kind of think the team should just stand pat. They've lost a few too many games for me to think a win-now move makes sense. But I also wouldn't want them to sell off Paul or Barnes and forgo the growth their presence facilitates. IF some team is willing to offer something great for Vassell or Johnson, it might make sense to listen. I'm sure it would be a task to sell taking a step back to Vic, but depending on how that deal goes, 2025 cap space might be an option.

    As for me, I'll try to be around a bit more often. I still think SpursTalk is really the only forum to go for Spurs discussion. I'm glad to see Teeds is back and that folks seem to be doing well. That said, we're kind of at a point of the year where we're just spinning our wheels. When things actually change, there will be more to talk about outside of the cycle of frustration some folks seem to be in right now.
    Glad to hear you're doing alright . Pretty much my sentiments tbh.

  4. #2204
    Watching the collapse benefactor's Avatar
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    Progression of key youngsters? Don't you mean just Castle? None of these other players are worth keeping on this roster outside of him.

  5. #2205
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    All players available tonight. Meaning no trade happening any time soon. Unfortunately.

  6. #2206
    ..... stephen jackson's Avatar
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    All players available tonight. Meaning no trade happening any time soon. Unfortunately.
    We gonna be waiting till Thursday

  7. #2207
    Make a trade steal
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    Meanwhile on the kings subreddit:

    saw a great trade proposal. Knocked my socks off

    Kings receive: Trae, Vassell, 2FRP from Spurs
    Hawks receive: Stephon Castle, Kevin Huerter, 2FRP from Spurs
    Spurs receive: Fox, Dyson Daniels

    https://www.reddit.com/r/kings/s/tXV1GMyGf4

    i think they believe Fox is the best player in the nba or something
    Spurs over pay here

  8. #2208
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Digging in a little more on this Ja v Fox thing (and this isn't meant to start an argument with Chinook, though I'd appreciate and enjoy the debate) because I think if you polled 10 random Spurs fans off the street, 9 of them would probably say they prefer Ja pretty quickly, but I think that has more to do with not being as familiar with Fox, in large part because he plays in freakin' Sacramento.

    Like I said above, they are about 20 months apart. Fox has 1.5 years left on his rookie extension, whereas Ja has 3.5 years left. Both guys got 25% max rookie extensions.

    Both have elite athleticism in certain areas. Fox with his speed and quickness, and Ja with his explosiveness and leaping ability. Ja's game is certainly more electric, but is it more effective?

    Both players are similar in scoring talent, both are good rebounders for their size (Fox is averaging 5spg this season - which is higher than his career average; Ja at 4.2 - which is lower than his career average). Both guys do a decent job playmaking and getting assists, though they aren't elite setup men the way someone like Trae or CP3 are (though Ja is a little better, averaging about 1apg more this season and throughout his career). Fox takes better care of the basketball, averaging about 0.7 TO/gm less than Morant for his career and 1.2 fewer this season.

    Defensively, neither guy is a stopper but both can hold their own. Both have good event creation numbers, though Fox is very good at creating steals (he led the league last season).

    Their offensive games both rely on taking advantage of their athleticism to get to the rim and generate some nice mid-range game. Their career FG%s are almost identical, .471 for Fox, .470 for Morant. Fox .s .522 in 2P%, while Morant is .517. Neither are sharp shooters, but they aren't guys that opposing teams are going to leave open and dare to shoot 3s. Fox's is a career .333 3P shooter, with approximately 27% of his shots coming from 3 in terms of shot diet, though that has crept up the last few seasons and is at 32% this season. Morant is a career .317 3P shooter, with 24% of his shots coming from 3, though again that has crept up the last few seasons and is at 31%. Both guys do a good job getting to the line, about 6 FTA/gm.

    If I showed you these two charts below I think most people would have a really hard time trying to identify which player is Fox and which is Morant (granted, this charts don't really tell you too much other than some high level information).




    Ultimately, I think Fox and Morant are one of the best comps for each other in the league. If you like Morant, you'd presumably like Fox. There has been a lot of asking aloud by folks here and elsewhere whether "Fox is that good" or "is he worth a Max". In my mind, he's unquestionably a Top 25-30 guy in the league (and so is Morant). And to that point, he's 22nd in the league in DARKO DPM, 31st in CraftedPlusMinus, 22nd in LEBRON WAR, 44th in LEBRON, 19th on the Ringer's Top Players list and their Trade Value Rankings, #26 in ESPN's preseason best players list, #27 in CBS's preseason best players list.

    The last thing I'll say about Fox versus Morant are two pretty critical points, IMO: 1) Fox is available, Ja is not and may never be. 2) Fox has proven to be more durable from an injury perspective and certainly from an off-the-court drama POV. I think that matters here as well.

    Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

  9. #2209
    Dyna5ty BatManu20's Avatar
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    Can this thread get to 100 pages without a deal?
    Easily. This thread will hit triple-digits before the weekend is over.

    I think if anything gets done, it’ll be much closer to the deadline. Makes sense for Sacto to drag it out as long as possible to put the pressure on the Spurs in hopes that they panic and reluctantly add a player or pick that they didn’t want to originally if this thing comes down to the wire.

  10. #2210
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Fox is extremely underrated. The main reason is cause he plays for the Kings. In the 23/24 season he was in the 97th percentile when it comes to finishing at the rim, yet his shot quality was one of the worst. Add to that that Fox is left handed. That is actually the ideal pairing for a right handed big man. The problem: Sabonis is also left handed, so they ran into each other quite a lot, since they both like to operate on the same side of the floor.

    Having Sabonis as your rim protector with Keegan Murray as your only wing defender doesn't do him any favors neither. Add to that that he's actually coasting this season, while putting up these numbers. There's a good chance that Fox would absolutely explode on the Spurs and have a huge jump in efficiency on both ends, due to being a better roster fit.

  11. #2211
    Veteran mo7888's Avatar
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    Honestly, between Ja and Fox, I'd prefer Fox, but it's razor close. Ja is more explosive and Fox is a little quicker. I'd trust Fox hitting a big 3 more than I would Ja. Lastly, being a better citizen is important in this locker room when you're the #2 to Wemby's #1 and I doubt Ja would see himself as a #2, which could cause drama that we don't need.

  12. #2212
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Fox is extremely underrated. The main reason is cause he plays for the Kings. In the 23/24 season he was in the 97th percentile when it comes to finishing at the rim, yet his shot quality was one of the worst. Add to that that Fox is left handed. That is actually the ideal pairing for a right handed big man. The problem: Sabonis is also left handed, so they ran into each other quite a lot, since they both like to operate on the same side of the floor.

    Having Sabonis as your rim protector with Keegan Murray as your only wing defender doesn't do him any favors neither. Add to that that he's actually coasting this season, while putting up these numbers. There's a good chance that Fox would absolutely explode on the Spurs and have a huge jump in efficiency on both ends, due to being a better roster fit.
    He's not coasting this season. He actually was trying to get All-NBA again, because he's motivated to get the max he can. He just failed at it and is now trying to force the second best option before he loses even more money in FA after next season.

    I mean, you can say a lot of things, but he definitely wasn't coasting this season. That's just fantasy. And he's not a top 20 player, either, or else he'd be in the conversation for All-Star and he's not even an afterthought.

  13. #2213
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    He's not coasting this season. He actually was trying to get All-NBA again, because he's motivated to get the max he can. He just failed at it and is now trying to force the second best option before he loses even more money in FA after next season.

    I mean, you can say a lot of things, but he definitely wasn't coasting this season. That's just fantasy. And he's not a top 20 player, either, or else he'd be in the conversation for All-Star and he's not even an afterthought.
    are you watching the games? Cause Kings fans (who obviously watch a lot more Kings games than you) are all saying he looks disengaged at times and just turns it on in the 4th. So according to them he is in fact coasting.

  14. #2214
    Veteran mo7888's Avatar
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    are you watching the games? Cause Kings fans (who obviously watch a lot more Kings games than you) are all saying he looks disengaged at times and just turns it on in the 4th. So according to them he is in fact coasting.
    Pretty much fact. When he saw that the team around him wasn't good enough to help his super max push he started coasting. He needs a change of scenery.

  15. #2215
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    As Chinook pointed out, the 2026 offseason is a huge factor. The Spurs have aligned their contracts to have maximum cap space in 2026. Available free agents should be KD and JJJ among others. While star players don't really hit free agency anymore, these 2 most likely will. Why? Cause Phoenix sucks and JJJ is on a decreasing contract, making an extension impossible if he wants max money.

    But even if Fox is on a max contract by then, they can still sign another max player. The only thing would be that the additions in the 2025 offseason would have to sign 1-year deals to keep the flexibility. So I don't see any issues in trading for Fox, if we don't give up too much.

    Another thing that has been mentioned by some cap experts is that if the Spurs trade for Fox now, they could renegotiate his contract and extend him. Like Utah did with Markkannen. I think that would actually lower his salary down the line if I'm not wrong.

  16. #2216
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    are you watching the games? Cause Kings fans (who obviously watch a lot more Kings games than you) are all saying he looks disengaged at times and just turns it on in the 4th. So according to them he is in fact coasting.
    Man, literally he was going for All-NBA because that's how he can get his super-max. When it was clear he couldn't get it (because he's not that player and may even be declining) and the Kings were shy about giving him major money he started pouting and trying to shove his way out. Dude is motivated by money and I don't know how much clearer that can be.

    And claiming that he's coasting and will 'turn it on' once he goes to another team is just wild. Pure beta vibes -- oh, yeah, the guy left his wife for me, he's definitely going to stay with me forever. A person shows you who they are.

    But I don't think he's coasting, he's just a good small scoring guard whose athleticism may be declining. Most charitably, you can say DDR is getting in his way, but nevertheless it's clear Sabonis is by far the actually good player on the team.

  17. #2217
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    Anyone know what channel for tonights game? (Austin tv)

    ballys listings arent showing it….neither 51 kbvo….tnt- nope…

    trying to set dvr recording

  18. #2218
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Man, literally he was going for All-NBA because that's how he can get his super-max. When it was clear he couldn't get it (because he's not that player and may even be declining) and the Kings were shy about giving him major money he started pouting and trying to shove his way out. Dude is motivated by money and I don't know how much clearer that can be.

    And claiming that he's coasting and will 'turn it on' once he goes to another team is just wild. Pure beta vibes -- oh, yeah, the guy left his wife for me, he's definitely going to stay with me forever. A person shows you who they are.

    But I don't think he's coasting, he's just a good small scoring guard whose athleticism may be declining. Most charitably, you can say DDR is getting in his way, but nevertheless it's clear Sabonis is by far the actually good player on the team.
    @ his athleticism is declining at 27. Your IQ never disappoints

  19. #2219
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Man, literally he was going for All-NBA because that's how he can get his super-max. When it was clear he couldn't get it (because he's not that player and may even be declining) and the Kings were shy about giving him major money he started pouting and trying to shove his way out. Dude is motivated by money and I don't know how much clearer that can be.

    And claiming that he's coasting and will 'turn it on' once he goes to another team is just wild. Pure beta vibes -- oh, yeah, the guy left his wife for me, he's definitely going to stay with me forever. A person shows you who they are.

    But I don't think he's coasting, he's just a good small scoring guard whose athleticism may be declining. Most charitably, you can say DDR is getting in his way, but nevertheless it's clear Sabonis is by far the actually good player on the team.
    They can't all be winners like Zach Collins

  20. #2220
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    Still remember years ago when Ja first broke out when there was beef between Fox and Amin Elhassan for these comments:
    https://streamable.com/7tchmr


    Fox is definitely underrated, especially his impact over the last few years. Here's his career arc compared to "superstar" Devin Booker by age:


    The fit with Castle is tricky, but I wonder if the plan is to bring along Castle's development slowly over the next 5-6 years taking on more primary responsibilities over time, then switching to the main guy as Fox's max extension either runs out or has just a couple years left - by that time they'll be able to re-assess Fox's performance relatively to his contract and have an idea of either his next contract or whether they need to trade him.

    EDIT:
    That said, EPM actually has Fox much lower both this season and career-wise compared to guys like Booker and Ja, so there is definitely some argument to be made that he's worse than what DPM would suggest.
    Last edited by SpursBills; 02-01-2025 at 04:10 PM.

  21. #2221
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    Mrs. Body said we would hate the Spurs being good again but any chance to improve this team through all the speculation and she’s always like “well does this person impact winning” or some other bull like that. Just keep quiet, Mrs. body, and let the moves play out.

    I’m sure you’ll be all “son of a , I’m in” when the spurs get another predator.

  22. #2222
    Veteran mo7888's Avatar
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    I'll add that I think Simmons ranking of Fox as a top 20 player is fairly accurate. The only two guys behind him on that that I'd put above him are Franz and Cunningham and I'd probably put Booker behind him.

  23. #2223
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    And he's not a top 20 player, either, or else he'd be in the conversation for All-Star and he's not even an afterthought.
    All Star picks is your standard, really?

  24. #2224
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Mrs. Body said we would hate the Spurs being good again but any chance to improve this team through all the speculation and she’s always like “well does this person impact winning” or some other bull like that. Just keep quiet, Mrs. body, and let the moves play out.

    I’m sure you’ll be all “son of a , I’m in” when the spurs get another predator.
    His “me vs everybody else” mentality is exhausting. How could someone be so out of touch and lack so much self awareness is beyond me. His head is so far up his ass that it’s no wonder he can’t read his own takes and realize how dumb he is.

    now he’s gonna come back with the group think bull because everyone’s bullying him for his stupid takes. Maybe don’t come out with stupid takes and we won’t clown you.

  25. #2225
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    the gap between a Fox, Trae Young, Ja Morant or Devin Booker is very very slim. In fact you could make the argument that if Ja and Fox switched teams, their records would still be the same. That's exactly why I'm saying he's underrated. People view him as some type of lesser PG when he's head and shoulders with all the other top PGs in the league.

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