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  1. #43101
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I really don't think Trump was seeking this kind of public spectacle if that's what you mean.

    Trump couldn't have been more gracious for most of the meeting until Zelensky started trying to publicly debate JD Vance and then things really went off the rails.

    The lack of gra ude from Zelensky is embedded in his statements. He says things like Ukraine is "alone" as if he hadn't received hundreds of billions of dollars worth of aid, intelligence, political support, etc. Then he makes these implicit threats when he says U.S. troops will be fighting and dying if Ukraine loses (and by "lose" he means if Ukraine isn't given blank checks because he has already said he will compromise on nothing so obviously no peace deal is possible under that condition).
    Lack of gra ude? It's not difficult to dig out every time Zelensky said thank you to the US for their support against the invader. There's no "peace deal" possible if Ukraine and Europe are not involved. That's just a non-starter.

    Frankly, he went to the oval office and told Trump right in his face he won't get bullied by him or Putler. That's what standup people do.

  2. #43102
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
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    Lack of gra ude? It's not difficult to dig out every time Zelensky said thank you to the US for their support against the invader. There's no "peace deal" possible if Ukraine and Europe are not involved. That's just a non-starter.

    Frankly, he went to the oval office and told Trump right in his face he won't get bullied by him or Putler. That's what standup people do.
    And got thrown out of the White House.

  3. #43103
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    Oh they will, it's their ass on the line. You can count the UK there as well. Not sure how this isn't entirely detrimental to the US. But ok.
    They will have to USA is done

  4. #43104
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    And got thrown out of the White House.
    He delivered the message

  5. #43105
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    They will have to USA is done
    For 4 years, looks likely...

  6. #43106
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    ‘Free world needs a new leader’: Europe defends Zelenskyy after Trump attack

    France, Germany and Poland all make prompt declarations of support as Europe fears Trump’s alignment with Putin.

    BRUSSELS ― European leaders on Friday rallied to defend Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy after United States President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance subjected him to a tirade of withering and infantilizing abuse in the Oval Office.

    European Union foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas said: “Today, it became clear that the free world needs a new leader. It’s up to us, Europeans, to take this challenge.”

    In what may prove to a significant turning point in the tottering postwar Western alliance between Europe and the United States, the Europeans pushed back against Washington’s increasing alignment with Russian dictator Vladimir Putin and Trump's browbeating of Zelenskyy.

    “There is an aggressor, which is Russia and a people who have suffered aggression, which is Ukraine,” said French President Emmanuel Macron, hitting back at Trump’s attempts to treat the two sides evenly. “You have to respect those who have been fighting since the beginning because they are fighting for their dignity, their independence, for their children, and for the security of Europe.”

    Macron also noted that the U.S. had not been the only country to support Kyiv, stressing that it was also backed by European countries, Canada and Japan.

    In the Oval Office, Trump told Zelenskyy his refusal to concede to Russia at the negotiating table was “gambling with World War III.”

    Later, Macron told Portuguese television: “If someone is playing World War III, his name is Vladimir Putin.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/volo...ne-war-russia/

  7. #43107
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    They will have to USA is done
    Yup, USA is done as superpower, no longer able to enforce Pax Americana. Afraid of Russia. Weak, so sad.

  8. #43108
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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  9. #43109
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    It Was an Ambush
    Today marked one of the grimmest days in the history of American diplomacy.

    ...
    Vance’s presence at the White House also suggests that the meeting was a setup. Vance is usually an invisible backbencher in this administration, with few duties other than some occasional trolling of Trump’s critics. (The actual business of furthering Trump’s policies is apparently now Elon Musk’s job.) This time, however, he was brought in to troll not other Americans, but a foreign leader. Marco Rubio—in theory, America’s top diplomat—was also there, but he sat glumly and silently while Vance pontificated like an obnoxious graduate student.

    Zelensky objected, as he should have, when the vice president castigated the Ukrainian president for not showing enough personal gra ude to Trump. And then in a moment of immense hypocrisy, Vance told Zelensky that it was “disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.” But baiting Zelensky into fighting in front of the media was likely the plan all along, and Trump and Vance were soon both yelling at Zelensky. (“This is going to be great television,” Trump said during the meeting.) The president at times sounded like a Mafia boss—“You don’t have the cards”; “you’re buried there”—but in the end, he sounded like no one so much as Putin himself as he hollered about “gambling with World War III,” as if starting the biggest war in Europe in nearly a century was Zelensky’s idea.

    ...
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s-trump/681880

  10. #43110
    Veteran GAustex's Avatar
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    lol the Atlantic

  11. #43111

  12. #43112
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    Yup, USA is done as superpower, no longer able to enforce Pax Americana. Afraid of Russia. Weak, so sad.
    USA was done as a superpower it once was after taking on $35 trillion of debt financing wars and other things it couldn’t afford.

  13. #43113
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    ‘Free world needs a new leader’: Europe defends Zelenskyy after Trump attack

    France, Germany and Poland all make prompt declarations of support as Europe fears Trump’s alignment with Putin.

    BRUSSELS ― European leaders on Friday rallied to defend Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy after United States President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance subjected him to a tirade of withering and infantilizing abuse in the Oval Office.

    European Union foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas said: “Today, it became clear that the free world needs a new leader. It’s up to us, Europeans, to take this challenge.”

    In what may prove to a significant turning point in the tottering postwar Western alliance between Europe and the United States, the Europeans pushed back against Washington’s increasing alignment with Russian dictator Vladimir Putin and Trump's browbeating of Zelenskyy.

    “There is an aggressor, which is Russia and a people who have suffered aggression, which is Ukraine,” said French President Emmanuel Macron, hitting back at Trump’s attempts to treat the two sides evenly. “You have to respect those who have been fighting since the beginning because they are fighting for their dignity, their independence, for their children, and for the security of Europe.”

    Macron also noted that the U.S. had not been the only country to support Kyiv, stressing that it was also backed by European countries, Canada and Japan.

    In the Oval Office, Trump told Zelenskyy his refusal to concede to Russia at the negotiating table was “gambling with World War III.”

    Later, Macron told Portuguese television: “If someone is playing World War III, his name is Vladimir Putin.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/volo...ne-war-russia/
    I don’t see any new answers coming from Europe right now that will meet Zelenskyy demands.

  14. #43114
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    USA was done as a superpower it once was after taking on $35 trillion of debt financing wars and other things it couldn’t afford.
    Great. You give up. You're done.

    I don’t see any new answers coming from Europe right now that will meet Zelenskyy demands.
    You don't see a lot of things tbh.

  15. #43115
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    Great. You give up. You're done.


    You don't see a lot of things tbh.
    Are you even sober?

  16. #43116
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Are you even sober?
    Of course.

    Your defeatism is terminal.

  17. #43117
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I don’t see any new answers coming from Europe right now that will meet Zelenskyy demands.
    Apparently there's a lot you missed. They've certainly put their money where their mouth is, and their support is united and unwavering. It's existential for them.

    All this does is strengthen Europe in the long run, which is nothing but detrimental to US interests, be it geopolitical or economic.

  18. #43118
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    According to the three memoranda, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively removing all Soviet nuclear weapons from their soil, and that they agreed to the following:

    • Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).
    • Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
    • Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
    • Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
    • Not to use nuclear weapons against any non–nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
    • Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

  19. #43119
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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  20. #43120
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Apparently there's a lot you missed. They've certainly put their money where their mouth is, and their support is united and unwavering. It's existential for them.

    All this does is strengthen Europe in the long run, which is nothing but detrimental to US interests, be it geopolitical or economic.


    Europe is a senile angry old woman

    She will get on her knees and fellate Uncle Sam as usual

  21. #43121
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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  22. #43122
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    no

    That was all planned.

  23. #43123
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Lol

  24. #43124
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Boom


  25. #43125
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    They haven't.

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