This core will win more future championships then trying to get a quick le now by breaking this up along with trading future draft picks.
That is an unserious statement. There is nothing to “break up”. The Spurs are Wemby, a very good role player (Fox), a young decent role player (Castle), and nothing else worth mentioning. Suggesting that adding a 20 year old Dylan Harper to that mix will yield championships is beyond stupid.
I don't know about this. I am normally highly for the Spurs' team building approach when getting a superstar via the draft and building around him, but Giannis is one of THE guys I'd consider strongly to go the trade/FA route. He's a magnificent player, so if the option was there and he wanted to come, this would be a super tough decision if I were the one having to make the decision/s.
He's the only player in NBA history with these numbers 30pts+, 10rbs+, 5ast+, 60%+ shooting from the field. He's done in the past two seasons and no-one else has done it in NBA history. He's not really slowing down. Sure, he's had some injuries, but yeah, tough, tough call. I'm still 60/40 on going the build it up homegrown Spurs' way, but man, just a tough call.
The biggest issue with Giannis trade is that we'd have to make a few other trades for high end role players.
If you go for Giannis who's turning 31 in December, you go all out and contend right away, no adjustment seasons or whatever.
Getting Giannis only for whoever's left from the current roster to be the 4th/5th/6th best player would probably end with a disappointing playoff elimination.
We dont need this trade tbh. Wemby is entering his prime couple of years from now. Wemby just need to get good role palyers around him (fox,castle and harper are enough)and hopefully he becomes mature and start playing smart basketball.
If Bucks say, we want to match salary, so Keldon and Barnes plus Sochan or something to make it work. Plus ALT picks and two more from Spurs. But they want either Harper or Castle.
3 options.
No trade
Trade Castle
Trade Harper
I'd trade Castle in that scenario, but I wouldn't give the 4 firsts on top of that. 3 would be my max. I don't think the market would really beat that.
You need to trade Vassell, he has the biggest cap hit, and is expendable
Castle, 2 ATL picks, and our 2029 (our one pick without swap rights built in)
My random thoughts
Here’s the thing. It’s a gamble either way. You’re gambling that Harper is going to ascend into s om and help Wemby ring or you’re gambling that Giannis will ring here within 3 years. Can a Fox, Wemby, Giannis combo win the west next year if all healthy? I think they could. I think they’d match up with anybody in the West very well. And theirs nobody next year in the East that scares me.
Second question: Is there a way to get Giannis with just Castle or just Harper? Idk we’d have to call Mil and see that their asking price for him is. But if there is a way to do it then I think you’re doing a disservice not bringing Giannis in. Also why do people assume that Giannis is going to fall off the map at 34? He’s in the best shape I’ve ever seen a human being. He works incredibly hard at his craft. He takes the game about as serious as I’ve seen a player and he always gives 100% on the court when he plays. Oh and he’s still ridiculously tall and strong. Those types of players don’t fall off the map. I actually feel confident in saying that in the next 8 seasons, Giannis will be better than Castle in all 8 and better than Harper in 6.
Can Fox, Castle, and Harper all coincide with each other harmoniously while playing high level basketball? I would say that they could. Wemby is obviously our 1st option. Fox our second. Then Castle and Harper are going to battle each other for the 3rd option. But that 4th option is only going to get like 10 shots a game. Is that enough for these young ball dominant guards?
What if both Harper and Castle don’t play point guard for their time playing here? Like what if Castle never develops into a PG and same with Harper? What do we do then? Do we extend Fox after his contract runs out? Do we draft a point guard? What if both of these players never really develop a consistent jumper? Now how do we play them together? There’s just as many questions for me with keeping them all as there is with trading them.
Either option is a gamble but to say that one side is 100% a good and the other 100% doomsday is just disingenuous
If we can get Giannis for the #2 pick and change then of course you go for it. Harper ain't going to be a Giannis
First, you don't know if Harper is going to be better than Giannis. Second, he is much cheaper and easier to build around than Giannis at this point. Third, if Giannis has a season ending injury, like Tatum, you are more screwed than if something were to happen with Harper. Fourth, you can always trade Harper at any point or wait and see if he is better than Castle, and then trade Castle. Fifth, if Wemby can't finish a season (so far not looking like he can), then the Spurs aren't competing for a le with Giannis and they lose all their draft capital.
If Giannis wasn't on a supermax deal, then it would be more palpable. But the Spurs would be acquiring the most expensive version of Giannis on the wrong side of 30. I mean, ultimately, if they work out Harper and don't see him as a future star, then they can trade down or trade for Giannis, but no reason to rush into anything. Even if Harper is never as good as Giannis, if he is the next Hardin or Cunningham, then he will be better for more years on the Spurs than a trade for 30 year old Giannis. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm more for drafting Harper at this point.
I'd change it to gambling that Harper will ascend into s om and that our other assets will become valuable since most picks have swaps attached.
They could win the West, but as we're seeing experience means a lot. Fox has 7 playoff games under his belt, noone else did . Barnes is the only proven veteran and he could be on his way out in a potential Giannis trade.
No way I'd give both of them up with a lot of picks on top of it.Second question: Is there a way to get Giannis with just Castle or just Harper? Idk we’d have to call Mil and see that their asking price for him is. But if there is a way to do it then I think you’re doing a disservice not bringing Giannis in. Also why do people assume that Giannis is going to fall off the map at 34? He’s in the best shape I’ve ever seen a human being. He works incredibly hard at his craft. He takes the game about as serious as I’ve seen a player and he always gives 100% on the court when he plays. Oh and he’s still ridiculously tall and strong. Those types of players don’t fall off the map. I actually feel confident in saying that in the next 8 seasons, Giannis will be better than Castle in all 8 and better than Harper in 6.
I think if we're talking just pure ability, Giannis easily has a top10 of all time case and that his age/conditioning won't ever be in question. At least not until he's like 36 or something.
My issue is that we'd have to make more trades and we'd have only one real chance to assemble a championship roster. If any of those trades fail, we'd be stuck with a flawed roster.
Then there's the coaching question which is the most telling for me. If they were serious about Giannis, they wouldn't have hired a rookie coach who's never even been an assistant on a playoff team.
Wemby will be the best player in the league in no time. If someone is unhappy with their role, they can go and play hero ball somewhere else.Can Fox, Castle, and Harper all coincide with each other harmoniously while playing high level basketball? I would say that they could. Wemby is obviously our 1st option. Fox our second. Then Castle and Harper are going to battle each other for the 3rd option. But that 4th option is only going to get like 10 shots a game. Is that enough for these young ball dominant guards?
Worst case scenario we get a Fox/Haliburton situation with Castle/Harper and get a lot of assets or a more fitting player in return for one of them.
Do we even need Castle to develop into a full time point guard? After we fired up the tank he got the green light to put up numbers, but is that even his ideal role? Because he can be an elite connecting piece and a secondary playmaker.What if both Harper and Castle don’t play point guard for their time playing here? Like what if Castle never develops into a PG and same with Harper? What do we do then? Do we extend Fox after his contract runs out? Do we draft a point guard? What if both of these players never really develop a consistent jumper? Now how do we play them together? There’s just as many questions for me with keeping them all as there is with trading them.
Harper is a natural point guard, no question about it.
I think most of your questions are good questions to have.
Look at it this way. We were expected to get #5 and #8 picks, instead we got #4 and #2.
Most players don't reach their full potential. If we keep both and one busts (no chance, tbh), with the other one becoming just a borderline all-star, we still got great value.
Imo, Harper's floor is elite 6th man and Castle's floor is elite glue guy. Both can reach s om, but nothing is a guarantee.
Will they ever be better than Giannis? No chance. But how many MVP trades that required a massive haul worked out?
These are all good points and tbh I’m fine with either option. I would lean towards a Giannis trade and personally I would pull the trigger. But you make some interesting points about the organization as a whole that I 100% agree with. The Spurs did not take the next three years as seriously as they should’ve. They instead went with the well Wemby is young approach. And I’m not even saying that’s the wrong approach to have. But the way they went about it imo was the wrong way.
Let’s say the Spurs are thinking solely about the future and having these 3 young players in Castle Wemby and Harper playing together for the next decade plus. And Wemby will be the best player in the planet and either Harper or Castle will or both are his all star teammates. That’s a fine thought. Now where in this thought process does hiring Mitch help this process. A rookie coach who has never really been the actual coach before where the buck ends with him. But okay let’s say that well since Pop did it in 97 than that means anyone can do it since it has happened before. So now we are saying that Wemby is going to be the best player in the world (he’s not yet) Castle’s range is at worst a super 6 man to an all star (he’s not there currently) and Harper has the same floor as Castle with his ceiling being Harden (again he hasn’t shown that yet obviously). So we have three pretty big supposes. AND we add our 4th suppose that Mitch is going to be a great coach that will grow with Wemby. All four of those are pretty big supposes.
Now I assume that the Spurs plan going forward is for Mitch to be a high end coach. Well then where is the actual plan in place to ensure that? Where are his veteran assistants? Where is his strong second and third man that can give him advice and offer solutions or viewpoints that either differ from Mitch or just were something he had never thought of before bc he is a rookie head coach. You want Wemby to be the best player in the world? And Harper to be Hardin and Castle to be an all-star. Well where are the top tiered player development coaches? Bc I’m pretty sure that Cleveland, Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Indy, OKC, Hou are all teams making the playoffs with young players on their roster. Youth can’t be the excuse every damn time. Other teams are winning with their youth. You want Castle and Harper to learn how to shoot? Where is our top tiered shooting coach? Why haven’t we poached back Chip from OKC? Like the Spurs claim to have all these lofty goals as an organization and instead of implementing actual steps to achieve them, they’re just putting it all on the shoulders of a 21 year old kid. It’s a bad way to run a franchise and it almost never works.
Now what does adding Giannis to the team mean for the Spurs? It means getting an actual MVP level player. It means that our 21 year old franchise player who Chinook has correctly identified as not ready yet to carry a franchise doesn’t have to immediately carry a franchise. It means you can’t double team Wemby. It means that Wemby gets to see the best conditioned player in the world train and practice and for a player that struggles with conditioning that might be helpful. It also shortens the time needed to identify whether or not Mitch is the guy going forward. It also brings a seriousness to the team that I believe the whole culture needs. There’s too much playing in the locker room full of kids. Giannis brings an intensity and maturity that the whole team will follow and develop. Wemby himself has let us know that players on our team don’t have the correct mindset. And it could mean a le. I’d say that we would have a damn good shot at winning a le in the next three years even with a flawed team. To me, Giannis being a Robinson to Wemby is very much needed and it puts the whole damn organization on notice. Bc Wemby is too polite to do that but Giannis isn’t playing. He is serious and he will demand the organization to be serious for top to bottom.
Great post.
Imo, Spurs hoped to get another player after Wemby and got lucky with Castle.
Waited for the right opportunity to get a proven all-star, but then Wemby went down. We would've surely made the play-in if he stayed healthy.
I'll actually blame Pop.
If you look at other young teams with in house coaches, they all took over when those teams were at the bottom.
Mitch should've taken over when we blew it up, before we even got Wemby, but the old man had other plans.
Instead he'll be under way more pressure than any of those other coaches because he'll have to make the playoffs right away.
This season was a good experience for him, though.
As for the development staff and assistants, I agree.
The problem with all of this is that Giannis isn't Robinson.Now what does adding Giannis to the team mean for the Spurs? It means getting an actual MVP level player. It means that our 21 year old franchise player who Chinook has correctly identified as not ready yet to carry a franchise doesn’t have to immediately carry a franchise. It means you can’t double team Wemby. It means that Wemby gets to see the best conditioned player in the world train and practice and for a player that struggles with conditioning that might be helpful. It also shortens the time needed to identify whether or not Mitch is the guy going forward. It also brings a seriousness to the team that I believe the whole culture needs. There’s too much playing in the locker room full of kids. Giannis brings an intensity and maturity that the whole team will follow and develop. Wemby himself has let us know that players on our team don’t have the correct mindset. And it could mean a le. I’d say that we would have a damn good shot at winning a le in the next three years even with a flawed team. To me, Giannis being a Robinson to Wemby is very much needed and it puts the whole damn organization on notice. Bc Wemby is too polite to do that but Giannis isn’t playing. He is serious and he will demand the organization to be serious for top to bottom.
He's not a past his prime superstar who's content with competing, if he gets traded it'll be because he wants to win again.
What happens if we get Giannis, fail at building a roster around him and Wemby, Mitch proves to be inadequate? How's family atmosphere franchise going to deal with that? Or is that exactly what we need? Maybe it is, but then it would be over, we'd have nothing to surround Wemby and Giannis with, the environment would become toxic and we'd become the Rockets, tbh.
Giannis, his contract and his age, are not worth it.
PASS!
You are gambling with wemby health
He only lost a half season to a health scare
You make a call and unless it guts the team you do the trade.
Spurs better try to win now imo prove to the world pop does not have to coach for spurs to win a le imo !
You are also gambling if you do get a supper star the picks and the kids will improve to win les later.
Spurs have maybe 3 players that are untouchable imo
Spur fans always think their players are better than they are imo !
Played more games imo then Wemby last year
What happens if Harper gets picked and he sucks and Wemby mad and demands out
If he does not work out you trade h
Kawhi really did a number on Spurs fans.
I know we all harbor feelings about Kawhi... but it's really not fair to blame him for ducks... he's always been this way.
Team Draft Harper here! The Bucks would do the trade that is best for them moving forward so you would be competing with OKC, Houston, Miami (Pat Riley knows how to get a deal done), maybe even the Mavericks if Nico is still off his rocker. Basically you would have to give up alot to compete with other offers. So at bare minimum I think a Giannis trade looks like this:
Devin Vassell or Jeremy Sochan
Keldon Johnson or Harrison Barnes
Blake Wesley
Malaki Branham
6 1st rounds picks of Bucks choosing
5 pick swaps
so:
#2 pick this year
#14 pick this year
2027 hawks 1st
2029 Spurs 1st
2031 spurs 1st
2033 spurs 1st
2026 hawks pick swap
2028 Celtics pick swap
2030 mavericks pick swap
2030 Timberwolves pick swap
2031 kings pick swap
so spurs roster would be
Fox - CP3 - Vet min
Castle - vet min - vet min
Sochan - Champagnie - Harrison Ingram
Giannis - Riley Minix - vet min
Wemby - 2nd Rnd pick - Bassey
You are not passing up OKC or Houston in the west year one of Giannis/Wemby with this roster. So year 2 maybe you find the shooters and vets to finally compete. Will still be in a dogfight with OKC and Houston.
People forget Wemby will only turn 22 next year and won’t reach his prime for another 3-4 seasons. The exact time Giannis will be leaving his prime. Historically players primes in the NBA are from age 28-32. For truly great players age 26-34. For an Alien like Wemby maybe he enters his prime at age 24-25.
In my opinion your window would be 2 years from now and be about 3 seasons. So let’s say best case scenario you 3-peat. Awesome, worth it. We would all feel like it was worth it. But then what. It would be similar to like Shaq leaving Kobe. It would take the Spurs 4-5 years to rebuild with the lack of assets and it would have to be done via free agency lol. The Spurs building through free agency. Lmao! Free agency. Let’s say they some how pull that off haha. You maybe win 1-3 more championships. Awesome, totally worth it. Wemby Era results in 4-6 championships. I think we all agree that would be worth it but…
The alternative timeline:
Draft Harper, Draft Pick 14
Not winning a championship the next 2 years as Harper and Castle Develop. Got it
Spurs make the right moves to build a roster and 3 years down the line Wemby hits his prime. Best player in the NBA. Fox would only be 30. Harper realizes his potential and becomes James Harden. Stephon Castle reaches his potential and becomes Jimmy Butler. Not quite in their primed yet but really good.
Fox - Shooter - Shooter
Harper (young Harden) - 3/D - 3/D
Castle (young Butler) - 3/d - 3/D
3/D - 3/D - 3/D
Wemby - Big Body rebounder - Big body rebounder
You 3-peat with Fox. It becomes to expensive. So you let him walk as he hits free agency at age 32. Right when Harper/Castle extension kick in and you have to pay Wemby a billion. You win 2-3 more championships. Then you have some choices to make with current CBA. Probably have to trade Castle or Harper. Oh no only 5-6 championships dammit. lol. But wait the 2031 Kings win the draft lottery!!! The Spurs with the lottery luck again as they swap picks with them.
Current 7th grader - Harper - Wemby go through a tough period but eventually pull out two more les as 7th grader hits his prime. 7-8 championships. 13 total championships. Wemby/Harper retire. Time for the team to be led by 7th grader
I know I’m telling stories here and using my crazy imagination but this is what great organizations do. It’s really silly to try to predict the future but Forward thinking is a great approach. How big do you want the window to be? Do you want it to be off and on? Or sustained success?
Also look at the worse case scenarios. An aging Giannis gets injured. Lots of wear and tear carrying the bucks for the last decade. Achilles and ACL injuries are becoming more and more common. Modern athletes don’t rest properly leading to higher frequency for injuries. Then you are in the exact same situation as the Bucks. Possibly with no championships to show for it. Forced to trade a generational talent in Wemby to start over. An even worse case scenario would be Wemby not having a healthy career. Going more of the Porzingis route being on/off again. Wouldn’t you want two potential future stars in Harper and Castle for cover for that?
Team Draft and Develop All Aboard
Not sure if its already posted but pretty cool workout with Giannis and Harper/Ace.
6 1st and 5 pick swaps that is crazy.
Devin, Barnes + #2 in this year's draft and Three additional future 1sts.
I think realistically that works and should get you close to within salary for the trade.
I don't like it personally. It's a big gamble. Giannis is at his peak but the salary implications and what you have to trade and pay to bring in vet role players to win now.
I don't think it is worth it in the long run, short term you field a playoff ready team that strives to compete for a championship but that window is short
It's a tough call for the front office with a young head coach and this roster.
That's exactly how I feel that either scenario is not that cut and dry. It can go either way which is why I'm glad I'm not in the hot seat to make that decision. It's a tough decision to make on whether to keep the pick or trade it for Giannis.
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