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For me, Vecine who I really like on this stuff, is pretty low on Fleming citing his issues processing the game. That isnt great to hear about an athlete who is straight out of central casting for the prototypical 3/D wing.
Vecenie has the exact same concerns you mentioned so you’re definitely in good company.
I do hope the Spurs bring him in for a workout though.
With likely another ball dominant guard coming in (Harper), a 3-D wing with limited Offensive responsibilities would be ideal.
My big Qs about Fleming:
1. Is he a 4/3 or 4/5 predominantly? Vecenie’s convinced it’s the latter, which itself is not without value to this team.
2. Is the Spot-up shooting legit?
3. Does he process the game fast enough on the Defensive end?
For me, Vecine who I really like on this stuff, is pretty low on Fleming citing his issues processing the game. That isnt great to hear about an athlete who is straight out of central casting for the prototypical 3/D wing.
Rotation of Fox/Harper/Castle/Barnes/Wemby + Vassell/Sochan/Keldon/Champ + Welsey and Bran deep and 4 roster spots to fill. I know the hate here for Dev/Jeremy/Keldon is strong, but they are very solid 6-8 guys, Champ is a great 9th man. We have $14-15M MLE and the $5Mish Bi-annual exception.
There's not much money to throw around this summer, Wemby/Fox, a clear role, and no state income tax is a pretty solid selling point to take a discount. Barnes + the '22 draft guys and Champ are expirings/RFAs/non-guaranteed. Still have a lot of 2nds.
We have lots of flexibility to upgrade without moving the #14, or to trade down with the #38 to like 17 + 31 with Minny or 19 + 27 with Bkn.
Adams, Lopez, Capela, even Horford (and Kornet) are all UFAs at C. LaRavia, DFS, Yabusele, Nance Jr, Tauren Prince would all fit nicely. Aldama could be a super interesting RFA (JJJ, Edey, GG II coming back, can't pay LaRavia & Aldama + Kennard). Vukcevic got Sarr'd and could be a very cheap, very interesting gamble. Maybe nothing too exciting, but lots of likely cheap, quality bench 4/5s. Point being, cheap quality rotation guys that fit our needs are gettable for cash and we're a situation a backup 4/5 would look at very closely, especially with Barnes and Sochan potentially gone next yr.
Love your first proposal, but would Dallas even listen? That deal doesn't save them money, it takes on 4 yrs of Vassels money without filling a need. It leaves AD/Flagg/Lively as they're only NBA bigs, AD is a glass cannon/Lively may be one too. & They'd still need a starting PG for next yr. Would you trade the #14 plus matching salary (Sochan + Wes, both would fill a need on their team) for just one as an expiring? I'd do it for PJ if he signs a team friendly extension, but not for Gaff.
Likewise would love Camara, great fit, love his game. Ditto love Avdija, but you realizes he's on one of the best contracts ($39.4M for 3yrs and declining yearly) and younger than Camara? No way they trade both, much less take back worse players and more money (don't think the numbers work either). Avdija will cost a ransom. Camara (and his $4.5M/2 yrs) for the #14 is prolly what it would take. #14 seems high, but he's young and cheap and there are a lot of teams that'd be interested. I'd consider that, but that's steep.
I'd rather roll the dice, ideally trade down, keep building the stockpile for the perfect fit, get some stop-gaps role players (or throw money at Aldama, he would be an awesome fit and he younger than Camara) and see if Fleming is Naz 2.0 with better mobility plus a Wolf or Raynaud or Sorber. Or use the extra pick + 2nds and redemption expirings (Sochan/Wes/Bran) to trade for John Collins (but not sure Utah would value the #27 or #31 and he's an expiring and he's a quality player).
Last edited by Arguendo; 05-20-2025 at 09:20 PM.
Interesting. I guess when I heard him question the processing I thought he meant offensively. I guess I wasn’t listening closely enough.
Same on Vecenie, I trust his takes. Hadn't heard his on Fleming that's...concerning. I have more faith in developing someone's shot then their processing. Ugh
His shooting has definitely the bed in 5 or 6 of his 13 2nd rd games. But his D has been there and avg 6 rebs/6ast/1.5stls and almost a block w/1.5TOs. He was 22 in his first POs last yr, 23 now and showed up Game 7.
I don't think its at all fair to say they're winning in spite of him. They got beaten by a Luka on a mission last yr and beat a Joker on a mission in 7.
No shame in going 7 against the Joker in his Prime and Gordon playing like he was.
I'd say this is much more likely sample size, but outside of his shooting, he's been damn good.
And I'm hoping for that SuperMax, that might be biasing my opinion
Yeah I think we are aligned on what conditions need to exist for a team to have interest in Devin. I could see BKN if they made some other significant moves (like getting Giannis). I discounted TOR because they already have a ton of guys in a similar tier as Devin... how many mid #2 options can a single team need? But maybe they package them all up for someone else and need to replenish? Portland I could see wanting to accelerate things, but I don't see them prioritizing Devin over Sharpe.
I'd do #14 for Camara in a heartbeat, interesting that you think it might be too steep. I think POR likely laughs and hangs up the phone. Strong chance he makes an All Defensive team, and he's a 38% 3P shooter on what amounts to a minimum deal. I feel like he'd be pretty untouchable for POR.
On Toronto, I was kinda looking at them the same as you described Brooklyn because they are a team that can make a compe ive Giannis trade and might want to pair him with Devin. It's a long shot, though...
to be fair, i don’t think carter bryant’s processing speed is that great either
I'm thinking that Raynaud, Bryant, Coward, Essengue, and maybe Sorber will be in the mix at 14 for the Spurs.
Unfortunately, I think the Hawks and Spurs might be looking for similar types of players. There could be a lot of trades and surprises as the draft unfolds.
If the spurs are actually looking to draft three players this draft and do not have anyone they really want at 14. they can look into trading #14 and 38 with the nets for 19 and 26.
Nets can just not draft anyone at 38 or sell it, with no hits to the cap, spurs moves up 12 spots on one pick while moving back 5 on the other.
i never saw fleming as a wing. he's pretty squarely a 4 who can play some small 5 minutes. and i think thats a big need
anybody who liked him because of the expectation that he would handle the ball or chase around smaller perimeter guys was barking up the wrong tree. he can defend any NBA 4 and he can slide down and defend some 3's as well.
Last edited by spurraider21; 05-21-2025 at 11:15 AM.
And it's not like we want/need our 4 to be handling the ball and going perimeter ISO anyway. Offensively, we really just need someone to basically be Barnes: be in the right spot to shoot some 3s, make smart cuts to the basket when their man gets distracted.
Its the full context and opportunity cost. I'd consider it depending on other moves/plans, but its not a slam dunk. I like cost control/asset acquisition, organic growth/chemistry/cohesion until we prove ourselves, know exactly what we need. The best way to improve the roster/talent is developing our own guys, especially late 1st and 2nds and undrafted guys, not trading asset for asset while suppressing the value of another asset that is depressed. I like buying distressed assets you see value in. I see lots of value in Sochan as a distressed asset, so I don't want to sale him at a distressed price/but I'd love to buy him cheap. I don't like buying peak value, which Camara may be.
Camara would pretty much end any chance Sochan has to take the next step/recoup value in SA. I know everyone here is pretty much wholly biased against even the possibility that any Spurs player thats not a ROY could still develop after the age of 21, but it not only happens, that's f-ing Camara:
Camara @ 18 in HS Sochan .47/.30/.59 In Big12
@19 .49/.17/.63 in SEC Sochan .45/.24/.70 in NBA
@ 20 .48/.26/.62 in SEC Sochan .44/.31/.78 in NBA
@ 21 .51/.34/.59 in A10 Sochan .54/.31/.70 in NBA
@ 22 .55/.36/.67 in A10 well'll see...
@ 23 .45/.34/.76 NBA
@ 24 .46/.375/.72
Camara was honing his skills in the A-10 against guys that can't make the Gleague while Jeremy was being asked to guard Luka/SGA/monster of the week and playing 4 (f-ing Point4 for almost 1/4 a season) in the NBA.
Is Camara's shooting is legit? Maybe he's a 37+% shooter or maybe he regresses. He definitely developed his shoot, good volume last yr, but 2 bad games knocks him down to a 36.1% (5 more misses) or sub 35% guy (10 more) and no one thinks its a slam dunk for #14.
Camara =lots of opportunity costs beyond the #14th, likely death kneel for Sochan's value in SA. There PT is mutually exclusive, won't really play together barring trade/injury.
I'd rather have Bryant (maybe he turns into a better defending Trey Murphy or beyond= huge ceiling) + Aldama+ Sochan being able to play next to Aldama, for example. I'd much prefer a vet 4/5 stretch guy, than Camara.
Way I see it, Spurs have done every disserve to Sochan's development. Maybe he never turns the shooting corner, but his situation has been f-ed.
19y/o =Total garbage/no structure team. 20= same garbage but a 19y/o Wemby but still no structure/no plays + PG experiment to start the yr. 21 focused on what he's good at/limiting 3s and boarding down w/ cuts and putbacks 71% at the rim. Fluke thumb injury but still hits 34% pre-AS in Jan/Feb hitting 42% of his 3s in 18 games, then Wemby/Fox-less March and April shut-down with an Interim coach and back spasms.
IMO Sochan's likely trade value (and hopefully extension value) are pretty highly distressed. He's younger today than several bigs people want to draft (Raynaud, Lendeborg, Kalk, Broome) only 1 yr older than Fleming and Wolf. 3 year vet whose happy to play a role and good for team cohesion/chemistry.
The cynics here would love dumping Sochan for a roster spot. Yes, we need 3% shooting but we also need O-bounds and glue guys and happy role players w/ 2 All-stars and 2 potential All-stars leading the way. Tamara may be all of that, but I don't think his a big enough upgrade over Sochan factoring in all costs and context. I'm confident Sochan will be a NBA role player for yrs whether the shot develops or not, his boarding/D/connection/willingness to do what's asked will get him at least 18-20mpg for someone for at least 2 more contracts. Basically I don't want to move off him at his current value. He's likely to play a lot with Vassell and Champ who will takes tons of 3s, he can board/cut/put-back. I think that's a valuable role and I think he can thrive, up his value and look incredibly enticing entering his 23 y/o season.
To me, Camara is not a difference maker. He's a really nice role player who fits better than Sochan currently, but if he costs #14 while killing Sochan's value and prevents us from getting any of LaRavia, DFS, Yabusele, Nance Jr, or Tauren Prince at the right price or please god Aldama, that price is too high for me. I think its much more likely Camara's value has near peaked while Sochan's has not. Sochan will be entering his 4th yr, Camara was entering his senior season at Dayton at this age.
And I want Bryant and I think many of those UFA 4s will come cheap. That's may reasoning. Still love Camara, wish we could find one like him in the 2nd, but #14 is steep considering everything imo.
its never bad to be able to put the ball on the floor. we've seen Barnes not only be a floor spacer, but he was also able to put the ball, get to the paint, and get some good ole YMCA style buckets for us when needed
but on the flipside with Fleming you are getting a better athlete, a much stronger rebounder, and some rim deterrence deterrence
I was thinking about this last night watching OKC/Pups...in this context we're talking about O processing speed right? Ability to read the D, make the pass/cut/shoot?
Because it seems to me on D, its less processing vs awareness and instinct. Fleming project as a 3/D spot-up and finisher on O. For putbacks and spot-ups processing is pretty low on the list of priorities.
Carter has a much higher ceiling, younger, but at Zona is role was D and mostly spot-ups against much stiffer compe ion in Big12, and Fresh vs Jr so I'm more forgiving to him.
At #14, i want 3/D/Reb potential, I think both offer that. But I'm damn intrigued by Wolf, fine with McNeeley, interested in Sorber for longer term and clear need.
Think to idea is enough athlete/quickness/length to competently handle wings on perimeter and prolly big guards and bigs on d at 230.
Same length as Naz but 20lbs lighter, more mobile, quicker. Spot-up 3 and finisher on O. Positionless big, one of the top athletes in draft plus the frame and can shoot and board and D.
Same lane agility time as Fears/better than Harper/Bailey/Bryant/Edgecombe. The only lottery guard with better agility was Johnson. Second best shuttle run in the class. Bottom half of the class in sprint and leaps (but WS making up lots of that leaping different, he was good enough to get high enough). Very, very quick and agile for someone his size, but not especially fast or explosive in testing.
Seems like he'll be able to switch onto most guard just fine, but not chase them around.
Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.
With that said, I can't get on board with the idea of passing up good players because of how it will impact someone like Sochan (and I'm not picking on Sochan, but he's the guy you used in your example). If Sochan's trajectory is thrown off because he's behind Camara, that's Jeremy Sochan's problem and he should have simply been better.
To me, it all comes down to one's evaluation of Camara. If you think his shooting is real and you buy his defense (which to me, that's the thing to buy in on), then you go get him if you can at an affordable price. #14 would definitely be worth it to me, as the expected median value of a #14 pick generally isn't as high as what Camara is showing today. I'm not passing up on Camara so that I can hope Jeremy Sochan learns to shoot and develops into... well, Toumani Camara. If you think #14 is too high for what Camara is, then you pass. But nowhere does Jeremy Sochan come into the analysis. Sochan hasn't shown enough of anything to alter our talent acquisition strategy.
It's up to each of these players to earn it, Sochan included. If bringing in Camara is a death knell for Sochan's value... then Sochan wasn't good enough and no tears should be shed.
Fleming is an offball player who can play PF and smallball C. He can seem flatfooted at times, but makes up for it with his insane wingspan. His defense and shotmaking should translate, simply because of his length and athleticism. He's not an off the dribble shooter and is sometimes out of position on defense. He can make basic reads on offense, but is not an elite playmaker and also doesn't have a midrange game.
Simply said: He's a high floor, low ceiling 3-and-D forward, which is perfectly fine. He'll be a nice role player, but won't turn into OG Anounoby.
Carter Bryant is a low ceiling, high floor prospect. He's the type of guy who you'd have to put in the G-League for 2 seasons, before you can put him into the rotation. A lot of people wanted to see him play more minutes in college, but his coach prefered to play veterans.
So he could be out of the league in a few years or turn into prime Rudy Gay.
Given that I'd prefer to draft somebody who can be part of the rotation while on a rookie deal, I think I would go with Cedric Coward. He's an SG/SF and 21 years old, but his game is the most polished and his athleticism is insane. He's a VJ Edgecombe level athlete with an insane vertical in a Herb Jones type of body. 6'6'' with a 7'2'' wingspan and he shoots lights out (39.4/38.3/40% from 3 in 3 seasons).
The only flaws you could mention is that he didn't play against elite compe ion in college and only played 6 games last season, because of an injury. His stats were quite similar to this years last season though.
He can drive, shoot off the dribble, has a midrange game and can even post up smaller defenders. Given his physical tools his game should translate easily, because he'll have an athletic advantage over most players. I don't think he slips past OKC at #15. That's exactly the type of wing they draft all the time. He also draws a lot of nephew comparisons, because he has huge hands and teams loved his interviews. Btw averaged 7 boards per game in college.
If you replace Keldon with him we should get better on both ends and you save 13 million.
The question is, do we even need those things he can't do?
I'd personally kill for a McDaniels type wing, that's what we need.
We're most likely going with three guards thing, Wemby will also have his fair share of the ball, we don't really care about handling or playmaking skills of our PF.
All we need him to do on offense is shoot, cut, crash the glass and maybe have a solid catch and drive game for aggressive closeouts.
This applies to every wing we're looking at, not just Fleming.
I'm not mad at either pick. I'd probably draft Sorber out of all those guys first at 14. Fleming definitely fits the PF profile of what we need at that position. His wingspan combined with Wemby's would terrify teams tbh. People always talk about "if the Spurs get Giannis teams wouldn't be able to score", but Fleming actually has a bigger wingspan
I'd also like Sorber, but I'd be really surprised if he's available considering that both Hawks and Bulls need rim protection.I'm not mad at either pick. I'd probably draft Sorber out of all those guys first at 14. Fleming definitely fits the PF profile of what we need at that position. His wingspan combined with Wemby's would terrify teams tbh. People always talk about "if the Spurs get Giannis teams wouldn't be able to score", but Fleming actually has a bigger wingspan
That's a good thing if we're in for a wing, though.
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