I'll plug it into my model in a little big and see what it says!
My gut tells me that Giannis is too valuable to be traded for anything less than another star going the other direction. And of course a lot depends on how difficult Giannis makes things on MKE (which my guess is that he wants to do MKE a solid and help them get max return... I don't sense there is real animosity between Giannis and the club)
The problem with Durant is that adding him won‘t fix our defense nor our rebounding issues. He also can’t guard physical PFs and would struggle against double big line ups defensively. Additionally he‘ll tie up our cap for this season.
Offensively this is intriguing, but I think a move for a John Collins or PJ Washington plus adding the 14th pick to the roster and more money to fill out the bench would probably improve the team in the same way, if not more.
If we got him we'd be forcing the teams to adapt to us, not the other way around.
KD and Wemby would provide the best possible spacing for Fox/Castle to do whatever they want.
Add Barnes into the mix if he survives the trade.
Obviously the defense would still be subpar, but it's not that relevant in the regular season and it's not like we'd have a legit chance of being legit contenders right away.
the problem with Vassell is that the Spurs need him to be something along the lines of what Derrick White and Mikal Bridges bring to their teams. defense first guys who can shoot, handle some weakside ballhandling when needed, and bail the team out when handed the occasional grenade due to his ability to get tough shots off at better rates than most.
however, he plays offense like he thinks he's kawhi and plays defense like harden or late career kobe (i would imagine kobe was an idol of his tbh)
Portis seems fairly redundant with John Collins imo
So... after plugging in the data, I see that my model clearly isn't built to accomodate a "SuperStar" level player... as I get a Rating for Giannis that is lower than DJM in 2022 when we traded him, and about equivalent to Donovan Mitc when he was traded in 2022. This is because my model gives bonus points for age and bargain contracts - so those two things are working against Giannis. His rating comes in about 8% lower than the rating it assigned for Luka.
So... I saw this just to saw that I don't like my model for trying to estimate Giannis's worth.
While I'm not a huge proponent of going for Giannis (and I love Giannis, one of my favorite Non-Spurs in the league although I have it on good authority he is kind of an asshole teammate), I agree with all the reasons you laid out for why he'd be good for us and Wemby.
I think the scenario LeBowen laid out seems about right.
He should be able to get a few promising young players, *short-term* matching salary (I think this is important) plus 4-5 unprotected FRPs and 2-3 swaps. The godfather package. I do think #2 this year (or #1 if you are Dallas) should be able to count for and offset 2 or maybe 3 FRPs. I think Castle could possible count as 1 promising young player and 1 FRP... maybe 2. Devin isn't that young anymore, and his contract doesn't necessarily favor what a tanking team might want... so I would just count him as neutral salary ballast as far as MIL is concerned, but they might actually prefer guys like Barnes and Keldon due to their shorter salary.
So I think if the Spurs wanted to try to acquire Giannis for as "cheaply" as possible as far as future picks are concerned, I think:
#2
Castle
One more FRP
3 Swaps
Barnes, Keldon, Sochan, Branham
Might get a conversation going?
If you want to keep Castle, you gotta add 2 more FRPs.
I might be completely off base here... this is just my guess of course. This is a bit of unchartered territory and I do think that the best way to get Giannis is if someone else had another Top 10 player to offer.
Wonder if ORL would consider a package centered around Paolo for Giannis.
I only had one request, get rid of Mitch.
Anything else is secondary.
Preach brother, preach
Here’s a link of Pop praising KDs (and Draymonds) leadership qualities for young players:
https://youtu.be/Ep-mHEO1t0o?si=xGunTFkPnhuFFs0A
Less redundant than Capela if you have Wemby and Sorber though.
Adding my voice to the KD "lobby"...
He's so much more a better fit for so many reasons than a Giannis.
Basketball wise his game is based on finesse and not athleticism, he can play 4 positions and would get more open shots with Wemby than he's ever had.
Off the court the dude is the best mentor I could dream of for Wemby and our youngsters and iircc Victor admires him.
Giannis loves to hold the ball too much, would have to change his whole game to adapt to Wemby and isn't a reliable shooter to help spread the floor. He also has a game based on athleticism and any season from now could be his last one (not being dramatic, it's just how it goes after 30 with these types of players).
IF we take a gamble I'd love it to be for KD.
Utah and Washington tanked hard and only ended up with the 5th and 6th picks overall. Harper - as 2nd overall pick present day, is worth a minimum of 4 FRPs on my chart. Maybe I could negotiate down a little from here, but I'm not the one with a roster looking for a bailout. At the very least, I'm not making the first offer. No sir, but give me a target to beat, and you'll have my immediate attention.
ah yeah i didnt catch Sorber was part of this
Interesting, cause I would think the Bucks would lean more toward a franchise reboot than wanting a star to help them to compete.
Like if the Spurs offer #2 and Castle and the Suns offer Booker I am sure the Bucks are taking the Spurs offer 10 out of 10 times 11 out of 10 times in a leap year.
I also don't believe Giannis cares very much about doing the Bucks a solid. This is the 3rd straight summer he has pulled the "I might have to leave" routine. Not something you do when you are trying to do your team "a solid".
Dejounte did the Spurs "a solid" in the Hawks trade. You never heard a peep about it until it was done, which allowed the spurs to extract maximum value. I don't see how the Bucks get max value for Giannis if everyone knows he is on the way out. Then all you do is wait for him to become a malcontent and wait for the Bucks to get desperate.
This is NOT my ideal offseason... but here is a scenario I thought up to go in the complete opposite of what we have now and create the team with the most length in history. Castle's shooting is no longer a problem... I don't know how our defense will be, but we should be able to get those rebounds.
TRADE:
-The Spurs trade Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson and Malaki Branham & #2 to UTA for #5 and Lauri Markkanen
-The Spurs trade Devin Vassell & #5 to NOP for #7 & Trey Murphy III
-The Spurs trade De'Aaron Fox & Jeremy Sochan for Kevin Durant and a future FRP
With #7, the Spurs draft Khaman Maluach
With #14, the Spurs draft Egor Demin
With #38, the Spurs sign Bagolijub Markovic
Memphis for some reason allows Santi to leave, he signs with the Spurs at the MLE
Spurs use the BAE to sign Ben Simmons
Spurs re-sign Mamu
Spurs sign Bol Bol to a 1-year minimum deal
Riley Minix makes a leap
The new Spurs:
PG: Stephon Castle (6'6") / Ben Simmons (6'11") / Blake Wesley (6'5")
SG: Trey Murphy III (6'10") / Egor Demin (6'10") / Riley Minix (6'7")
SF: Kevin Durant (6'11") / Julian Champagnie (6'7") / Mamu (6'10")
PF: Lauri Markkanen (7'0") / Santi Aldama (7'0") / Bogoljub Markovic (6'11")
C: Victor Wembanyama (7'19") / Khaman Maluach (7'2") / Bol Bol (7'3")
Like Col. Kurtz, I believe it is time for your command to be terminated with extreme prejudice. You may be clear in your mind, but, your soul is mad. The horror.....
Insanity aside, I was entertaining thoughts of Bol Bol, too. Pretty funny proposition you created. Pop's love of Don Nelson's small ball approach probably saves us from this.
BTW- You forgot to add Boban to the coaching staff.
Cmon emoji guy, even the vanilla guy is relenting on the John Collins crap, these guys are not shot creators, Wemby needs a shot creator next to him in the front court to drag the wing defender away from him that is why there is interest in a high level wing at that spot and not a combo big or a stretch 4.
Let's start with Nico being Nico, and selecting Harper, "as he's the next Harden"...
2 Flagg
14 Sorber
38 TBD
For a player Devin's age, I think his idol would've been Paul George.
I thought it was pretty widely known that Kobe was his idol. Homie wears #24 and even has a Kobe tattoo.
https://www.poundingtherock.com/2024...ears-number-24
If Wemby or a player now says dont do it. They wont. Times have changed.
No, Durant was one of the players in the room negotiating the CBA on behalf of the NBPA. That role did not come from his bag. It came from the relationship he's built with players throughout the league. It's not just a matter of having talent. It's being willing to give time to others to help them get better.
Now we're mixing up words. I never said Kobe was a leader. I was a little loose with the word earlier, so I'm not blaming you here. What I said about Kobe is that he was a mentor, which he was to a lot of players. Him having an ego that kept him from co-existing with Shaq is not the same thing. It's just like how Lebron's always been a good teammate despite the fact that he loves to play GM. Who people are interpersonally isn't the same as who they become in media narratives or even stuff they might do away from the locker room.Also Kobe might be the worst leader of any superstar player. He ran Shaq out. He ran Phil out. He quit on his team in game 7 of the playoffs. He beefed with his teammates through out his career. From Shaq to Smush to Pau and Bynum to Nick Young to Russel to Randel. He was a terrible leader for young players and by all accounts the team vets basically had to slap him to stay in line during the 3peat.
Honestly, Durant letting Barkley run him is one of the main things he can warn Wemby against. No one should give a what Chuck has to say about winning. Sport media doesn't care about people. They only care about money. We've already had to see ESPN trying to manufacture trades trying to "Get Wemby help" when Victor is still trying to learn the NBA game and basic consistency. Then they compare him to a role-player like Chet for no reason other than to try to stir up controversy. Durant got a bunch of pressure from the media when he left. Giannis and Lillard got a lot of pressure when they stayed. The lesson Durant can impart is not "Stay, because the grass isn't always greener." It's, "They're going to pick at you no matter what you do. They'll never be happy, because they don't care about you as a person." I don't know if Durant truly regrets any of his moves -- and the teams that used to have him probably don't regret having him. But I do think he'd offer much more valuable commentary on the media and modern NBA that Giannis would.KD runs away from adversity. He just does. You can say well he can tell Wemby all the downsides that came with leaving from franchise to franchise but KD is too prideful for that.KD runs away from adversity. He just does. You can say well he can tell Wemby all the downsides that came with leaving from franchise to franchise but KD is too prideful for that. Dude has never accepted that he wasn’t good enough to not get a team to a championship as the lead dog. It’s just excuses with him. He gets coaches fired, he values friends over fit (and that’s something I really wish Wemby doesn’t do) and I’ve never seen him say in the past decade “I’m the issue. I’m the reason why we lost. I will rally the troops and get us past this.” I have seen him say it’s the role players fault. It’s the fit of the team. It’s managements fault. It’s the coaches fault. Heck I know Chuck said KD isn’t a bus driver and just a passenger but man KD has ran over a lot of people and reversed back over them time and time again.
No. Do you think Wemby doesn't have trainers? Do you think Barnes and Paul don't know how to spend days as pros? I don't like the implication that Wemby needs to bulk like Giannis. Giannis has a different body type that can take that muscle. Wemby has put a lot of time and money into his body already. I don't actually think he'd have any interest in throwing away that investment. I also don't get why you think Durant wouldn't also have any tips on maintaining his body. He's the one who's still very good as a 36-year-old. Giannis is still in his physical prime (and is also breaking down).You don’t think Giannis could teach Wemby how to spend every day as a pro? You don’t think he can teach Wemby how much he needs to be in the weight room
What on Earth gave you this impression? It's not actually based on any data. The NBA actually tracks players' movement nowadays. The two players are basically identical when it comes to their distance covered and average speed on the court. Giannis was the second-slowest Buck last year. You know who actually hustles all the time, doesn't take plays off and whatnot? Sochan. Out of all the rotation players still on the team, Jeremy hustled the most often. The absolute leader was Wesley, followed by Tre Jones. Giannis' teammate Andre Jackson Jr lead the NBA in movement among rotation players, so it's not even like the Bucks' system was the reason. Risacher was third in the whole league in movement.How many times does Wemby jog back on offense? How many times does he mentally check himself out of plays. How many times has he checked himself out of entire quarters. Giannis doesn’t play that way. There is no checking out with Giannis. There is no jogging on offense with Giannis
Wemby isn't ready to carry his team to a le yet, which is why investing in moves to try to force something now like trading for Jaylen Brown. But's he's not "the help" either. Giannis conflicts with Wemby on the court. They occupy the same niche on the court but just execute field goals differently due to their skill-sets. Think Lebron and Wade in Miami, except in the Heatles' case they were both already develop superstars who were close friends and wanted to work together. Even so, it was more of a situation where they overcame a bad fit due to sheer talent. If you trade for Giannis, it's his team, and Wemby becomes something between Heatles' Bosh and Myles Turner to support that. Given the Bucks relative lack of success, I don't know if that's a good thing, even strictly on the court. Durant would be different, as you said. It would be Victor's team, but he'd have extra support, including someone who could come in a lead the charge. If everything goes right, yeah they could win a le with KD, and the team should be willing to give themselves a chance to do that if the opportunity arises. But that's not the point of the trade. It's about getting someone who will make Wemby better, and unlike Giannis, the price for Durant works perfectly fine to that end.You are the poster who correctly said, that Wemby isn’t a franchise player yet. He can be soon. But he isn’t there yet. Well Giannis shouldn’t take a back seat to Wemby. He will force Wemby to up his game to a higher standard while KD will just let Wemby hoop. That’s the difference. Giannis will push Wemby and KD will just let Wemby be.
I thought that was a reference to how many teammates' girls George slept with. I guess I was off.
Dude if you watch the Bucks and think Giannis doesn’t hustle his ass off bc the data says he doesn’t then idk what to tell you. We just disagree on a fundamental level. Just the data and actually watch Giannis play and then tell me he is the second slowest Buck and doesn’t hustle like Sochan. Dude doubles Sochan in points rebounds and assists and yet Sochan is the one who hustles and not Giannis?? Ok man I’m just never going to see eye to eye with you on that.
Also who gives a about KD being a player representative? Literally nobody. KD is a likable person. He may even be a smart person (I don’t know) but that doesn’t mean I want Wemby learning how to be a leader from KD. You gave no rebuttal to KD running away, throwing teammates under the bus, throwing coaches under the bus, and never personally taking responsibility for any lack of team success. he didn’t even do it this year and just blamed the FO. When I think leadership I think of a person who gets coaches fired, blames everyone else, puts up empty stats, and is a primadonna who is never happy with his situation and always looking to move… so long as he’s a good union rep that is.
And man again if you don’t think Giannis can teach Wemby things again you and I just see things on a different fundamental level. I read the dream team book and something that stuck out to me was DRobs quotes. He said that he went in there with a mindset to just watch and learn. How do the best players train, what are their mindsets, how do they lead a team? And he was just focused on everything they did and it opened his eyes to the level that he was trying to get to and he saw a basketball world that he didn’t even know existed before spending the summer with the team. I think Giannis would provide that same experience for D-Rob who also had trainers. Like yeah no Wemby has trainers and a die ian. But clearly even with that Wemby gets gassed pretty easily. I’m sure the Spurs data says otherwise but when you watch the game he just does.
Also Wemby wouldn’t be a backseat to Giannis. He would be young Kobe to Shaq. I actually think that’s a perfect comparison rather than Wade and LeBron. Giannis plays like Shaq and Wemby is trying to be a guard half the time. Wemby took 9 threes a game last year. I don’t exactly see Giannis taking 9 threes in one game nvm average 9 a game. Their games are completely different. In fact, Wembys game is similar to KD if anything and they would overlap.
I know nobody here actually watches the Suns play (and why would you) but if you did you would see that Durant doesn’t help teams anymore. He plays no defense, doesn’t rebound the ball anymore either, and is a complete cancer on the floor. He does nothing without the ball in his hands. He just stands there.
Btw I love how Giannis is breaking down while averaging 30 points a game on 60% shooting, 12 rebounds a game and 6.5 assists a game, gets to the line 10 times a game while playing defense and KD who is older, has worst stats, and less games played somehow isn’t breaking down. Good to know.
I wish I broke down in my 30s like Giannis is doing instead of... well, like how I did.
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