I never said anything about Collins or Portis… so I’m not sure what you’re on about.
But no, the Spurs problem is not this offense more than the defense. Come on.
Maybe you should have then? You advocate for Collins because of rebounding but ignore the proposal you were responding to had a better rebounder for less money.
And no, defense can be better, but Wemby's already a generational defender. Meanwhile, the team currently requires one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ for them to beat anyone. They can be a top-seven defense with better coaching. They don't have the personnel to be a playoff offense at the moment.
This is the lineup you proposed where I responded and said we are giving up on defense and rebounding:
Where do Collins or Portis play into that? If you wanted Portis as part of that, maybe you should have wrote that. But you didn't.
And when have I ever "advocated for Collins because of rebounding"... or advocated for him in general? I mentioned him as part of my first draft ideal offseason because he's a modern 4, something I think most folks seem to agree we need. I don't even have that strong of feelings for Collins. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.
Wemby is a generational defender, who is gassed on offense because he's picking up the slack for the rest of the team on the defensive end. Imagine how good our defense could be if all 5 guys (or heck, even if 3 of them) played defense. Instead, we are a team who consistently gives up wide open looks from 3. A team that ranked 23rd in Opposing PPG, 24th in Opponent FG%, 24th in Opponent 3P%, 28th in Opponent OREB, 21st in TO forced.And no, defense can be better, but Wemby's already a generational defender. Meanwhile, the team currently requires one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ for them to beat anyone. They can be a top-seven defense with better coaching. They don't have the personnel to be a playoff offense at the moment.
You're either willfully dishonest, plain ignorant, or just blind if you don't see how our defense is a problem.
As for "requiring one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ"... I mean, you just named the team's 3rd, 4th and 5 leading scorers... yeah, teams usually require one of those guys to show up to win games. You just described basketball
It’s not that our defense isn’t a problem, but offense is a bigger issue IMO. We’re a ty team so obviously we could improve pretty much everywhere
With Wemby on the court we were a clear top 10 defense. Everyone here agrees we need a backup center so that everything doesn’t go to when Wemby leaves the floor, but I don’t really think swapping Vassell/Keldon for Durant prevents us from fixing that hole.
We have a guard rotation that should be well above average on defense. We have an elite wing defender in Sochan. We have a generational anchor in Wemby. Add a competent backup big and maybe one other 3&D type wing and I think our defense is going to be perfectly fine (even with KD playing 30+ mpg). Seems like we could add those pieces and land KD with some creativity and using exceptions.
That's why Durant doesn't make sense for us.Interesting how you've put the responsibility for defense and rebounding on everyone except for the old guy on a SuperMax that you're bent on acquiring
John Collins fit us so much better.
scott[O’Connor]: “There are no untouchables in New Orleans. League sources say the Pelicans are gauging the market for everyone on their roster.”
Fire up the trade machine for Murphy without involving Castle or Harper!
That's not a lineup. It's a depth chart immediately following the Durant trade I described. There's no backup center listed and had Branham "in the rotation". I talk about the other things the Spurs need to do to shore up the roster in that same post. Yes, I didn't talk about Portis in that post. But I had just a couple of posts earlier and clarified it afterward. I assumed we were talking over Durant at PF rather than Collins. It only occurred to me after reading this post that you were treating a clearly unfinished roster as if it were the end of the off-season. I guess that explains why you assumed I was pretending something.This is the lineup you proposed where I responded and said we are giving up on defense and rebounding:
Where do Collins or Portis play into that? If you wanted Portis as part of that, maybe you should have wrote that. But you didn't.
And when have I ever "advocated for Collins because of rebounding"... or advocated for him in general? I mentioned him as part of my first draft ideal offseason because he's a modern 4, something I think most folks seem to agree we need. I don't even have that strong of feelings for Collins. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.
Wemby is a generational defender, who is gassed on offense because he's picking up the slack for the rest of the team on the defensive end. Imagine how good our defense could be if all 5 guys (or heck, even if 3 of them) played defense. Instead, we are a team who consistently gives up wide open looks from 3. A team that ranked 23rd in Opposing PPG, 24th in Opponent FG%, 24th in Opponent 3P%, 28th in Opponent OREB, 21st in TO forced.
You're either willfully dishonest, plain ignorant, or just blind if you don't see how our defense is a problem.
As for "requiring one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ"... I mean, you just named the team's 3rd, 4th and 5 leading scorers... yeah, teams usually require one of those guys to show up to win games. You just described basketball
You literally just advocated for Collins. No need to strawman by saying I said you were obsessed with him. I'd very much argue thst the Durant and Giannis interest shows that "most people" don't agree on a classic PF like Collins. Some folks do and that's fine. But there's a lot of variance on Victor's front-court partner.
Wemby's gonna have to anchor the defense just like Tim did. It's going to be his most important job. Every stat you described is primarily a coaching issue. That getting cleaned up would mean Wemby doesn't have to waste energy plugging holes for inattentive temmates. But he still has to do his job.
Offense is the bigger problem. No one said the defense wasn't an issue. I've directly, to you in this conversation, explained exactly what I believe the problem with the defense is. Our disagreement is you saying the Spurs "don't need" a star scorer like Durant and me saying they do. In other words: Our dispute is this offense more than defense. Come on.
And no. The point isn't that the Spurs require their third scorer to perform well to win games. It's that the Spurs had to rely on unreliable and underperforming players to have rare good games, or else they'd lose. And they lost a lot because that strategy was a losing one. I don't think that's a hard comment to interpret.
i think it may have been KOC... but he floated the idea of a 3 team deal where
Spurs get Giannis
Pelicans get Harper
Bucks get Zion
with some mishmash of picks going in a few directions
I doubt the Bucks want Zion now that he‘s on trial for rape
true
i think it came up because NOP had some Bucks picks from the Holiday trade
Serious question, is English your second language? Because you seem to consistently find yourself in these situations where you say one thing but then have to write a treatise about you meant something else or that someone was required to piece together your collective works to truly understand them. You presented a depth chart, to which I pointed out the deficiency in defense and rebounding, to which you've gone on some other tangent about how you're just misunderstood. This seems to happen a lot with you. Perhaps the problem is that, while you often have very good and well thought out ideas, you are an objectively bad communicator.
Anyway, the depth chart you've suggested will struggle with defense and rebounding. My hope is we try to improve on those areas this offseason. We'll see what happens. I'll let you resume your campaign of advocating for Kevin Durant.
The San Quintin All Stars might be the only team able to make room for Zion in their SL
Obviously the easiest way would be Vassell + Draft capital for TMIII... but why does NOP do this (other than to collect draft capital)? Unfortunately Sochan is the only other potentially positive asset we have other than Barnes (due to his expiring). Would NOP consider Sochan + Barnes + some draft capital for TMIII to get off some long term money? I don't see how it makes sense for them.
So we need to find a third team... but you and I have discussed at length... not a lot of teams who actually need Vassell... but what about this?
Bulls swap out one FSU lotto pick for one who's actually decent but have to give up a second and a swap to make the upgrade. Phillips included as ballast, not sure if he has any actual value.
NOP gets an FRP, a swap and Sochan (and an SRP, whatever)? I would hang up the phone and block the Spurs number if I was NOP... but this is the direction I think we'd have to try and go in.
In reality... TMIII probably requires a Dejounte-like haul, doesn't he?
Lots of understandable focus on trading for big names... but someone (I apologize I forget who) made a great point the other day about how acquiring the popular names is expensive (and usually ends up being a regrettable overpay) and that some good teams acquire talent opportunistically (how Boston did with Derrick and Tingus, for example, though they turned around and got themselves in cap with their extensions).
Would love to hear some ideas for opportunistic, low-key sharp moves. Who are your under-the-radar pet cats? Maybe some guys who haven't lived up to their potential so far, or are buried on a depth chart and haven't gotten their chance yet? Bonus points if their teams need help getting out of cap situations.
I know mo7888 are on the Jarace Walker bandwagon.
I also like Dean Wade out of Cleveland.
Many people have pointed at Sam Hauser as a potential cheap pickup to help BOS get out of their cap bind.
Any others out there? This seems to be Brian Wright's wheelhouse.
does anybody know what's up with Herb Jones injury? Would love to get him, but a long shoulder injury might affect his shooting.
Was just about to suggest that maybe Herb is the NOP wing we should be thinking of trying to get, rather than TMIII. Though I don't think he'll be available for a bargain price either.
Haywood Highsmith is low key one of the best defenders in the NBA. Makes 5 million, has 1 year left on the Heat. I doubt they want to move him, but who knows what the price is.
true
i think it came up because NOP had some Bucks picks from the Holiday trade
Only makes sense if the Bucks are insane, or waive him but then they're getting back very little.
He was my suggestion last year, Spurs apparently weren't interested.
Bro, we all mispeak need to clarify sometimes. The difference is that instead of insulting you, I take the time to try to bridge the gap when someone diaagrees instead of just calling them a jerk or idiot like a lot of folks do and moving on. I don't know why you think calling that a "treatise" is an actual critique. It comes across far more like petulance.
I presented a depth chart after one move and one draft pick then wrote a paragraph about next steps, and you took issue with it. I'm sorry that I assumed you'd bother reading a whole post before interjecting. I don't think it's justifiable for you to think a roster with no other center was supposed to not require additional moves. That just doesn't make sense. It's a shame instead of just admitting you jumped the gun, you're backing into this corner and lashing out with lame ad hominems. But I guess the Collins discussion is a reminder of how you'll cling to a semantic quirk in lieu of the actual context of the discussion.
I've never suggested I am not advocating for Durant, and it's ridiculous to assume one has to push an idea as hard as I've pushed KD to SA for it to count as advocacy. But again, we know you'll dig yourself into another hole about the term if I comment on it further.
A lineup still only let's 5 guys play at a time. A starting 5 of Fox/Castle/Champ/Durant/Wemby is going to struggle on the boards and with defense. This was the entirety of my post. There is no gun that was jumped. This was my entire thought, to which you responded by putting the onus on everyone but your prized acquisition to pick up the slack in this area. There is no other roster move that is going to help that lineup of 5 guys be better in that area. Signing a cloned version of prime Dennis Rodman for the bench isn't going to make that lineup of 5 guys better at defense or rebounding.
You think the defense or rebounding will be fine, or it will be a sign that everyone other than Durant is not carrying their weight. Your position is understood. I disagree with it.
It's great you're all in for Durant. There are lots of people who want him, some more zealously than others. I understand that position, and I'm not even fully against it, though I do have concerns (which have been brought up). What I find hilarious is how your zealous advocacy of him takes you weird takes like it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to "carry their weight" and do things like pick up the defense and rebounding slack... not the 6'11" guy on a SuperMax contract. That's about as absurd to me as someone who thinks Durant should come here for $10MM/yr to be the 8th option (an actual suggestion that has been floated).
And for the record... asking if you English was your second language wasn't an ad hominem attack... it was a serious question. This happens a lot with you and I'm genuinely wondering why so I can better engage with you, because I've always enjoyed the thought you put into your takes (even if I don't agree with them). Maybe that's not possible. Oh well.
If that's the position they find themselves in, they should use one of the avenues I listed in that post to improve the roster. But since we apparently ARE talking about Durant at PF as the main sticking point, then the response I gave applies, which is that the small guys, especially the role players, have to work harder and play smarter. The reality is that Durant has played PF for years, and his teams have been able to get by. Yes, that means that Wemby will have to go back to the things he was doing the second half of his rookie season to boost his rebounding numbers, but the smalls need to box out. You don't pass up a star because he's only an average rebounder for his position.
No. I think the way to fix it is with coaching. I do not know if Johnson will fix it. Pop had been doing a horrible job preparing his players in those aspects for many years at this point. If Johnson is more of the same, the issues won't get fixed. But if they fail, it's not because Durant can't play PF on a successful team -- he obviously can. It's because the guys they have continue to make the mental mistakes that have led to this issue in the first place. Can Durant change to pick up some more boards? Sure. But is it his burden to make up for the perimeter players not doing their part? No. He has his weight to carry, and they need to carry theirs.You think the defense or rebounding will be fine.
Sometimes I wonder if you see when you watch the Spurs. I don't mean that as an insult, but we were here on ST complaining about coaching failing the players, we watched that yelling guy trash Pop and explain the mistakes guys were making, and yet you don't come to the conclusion that the players could just NOT do those things if they had a coach who trained them to not do them. Durant is who he is, which is a mixture of average and above-average in terms of defense and rebounding. He's likely going to come in and continue being that, maybe trending a bit higher once he settles in. But the smalls have been BAD, in a way that's obvious if you watch them. They can't continue to be bad. You can't outsource defense and boxing out -- everyone's gotta do it.What I find hilarious is how your zealous advocacy of him takes you weird takes like it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to "carry their weight" and do things like pick up the defense and rebounding slack... not the 6'11" guy on a SuperMax contract.
No it's not, because " it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to 'carry their weight'" is true no matter who they bring in. I've been talking about this a lot with Vassell and the changes he needs to make. I've also said it about Castle. These are fundamental flaws that you can't paper over with teammates. They have to do their part. It doesn't matter if it's Durant, Collins, Washington or Sorber at PF. The Spurs can't keep playing like this.That's about as absurd to me as someone who thinks Durant should come here for $10MM/yr to be the 8th option (an actual suggestion that has been floated).
And for the record... asking if you English was your second language wasn't an ad hominem attack... it was a serious question. This happens a lot with you and I'm genuinely wondering why so I can better engage with you, because I've always enjoyed the thought you put into your takes (even if I don't agree with them). Maybe that's not possible. Oh well.
I'm going to leave this, because this will get into a silly semantic debate. If you want to move on from it, that's cool.
I think the way to find this is to logically go through teams:
Are they in a place where they'd get rid of someone, as they're tanking (Utah - Collins, Sexton),
saving money (Boston - Hauser), or a
positional reset where they need to change (e.g, Orlando looking for guard / 2/3s).
Basically - are they in a positional to potentially undervalue their guys as assets as they won't stay around.
Boston - $- (Jrue, Tingus, Hauser),
LAL - positional overlap - Reeves, (listing for completeness - not an option for us)
Cleveland - $ - (Dean Wade, Okoro, Sam Merill as FA),
Orlando $ and positions (Isaac, WCJ),
Pacers - $ in future - Walker
Minnesota $$ (IF they keep both Naz / Randle as FA, one of them might be free),
Washington - tank - (Smart)
Dallas (need guards) - PJ, Gafford, etc
Utah tank - Collins, Sexton
I think we need PF / SF minutes, with shooting needed as Fox/Harper / Castle / Wemby will organise creation, and there are FA options as well (Laravia as commonly mentioned), but I think the bolded guys fit the need and target team that you'd look to trade and acquire cheap.
Here's the crux of it. We agree Durant is who he is (though you see him as someone different than I do... you think he's an average to above-average defender... and I see him as someone who ranks 30% percentile in DARKO D-DPM, 15th percentile in D-LEBRON, and 36th percentile in Crafted DPM), but you want to craft the rest of the team around him... and I don't.
You've talked a lot about how this team isn't ready to compete... so why would we want to conform our team around a 37-year old on a SuperMax for the next 1-3 years? Does KD make us a championship contender? Unless he does, what are we hoping to accomplish by building the rest of the team to cover up his weaknesses as an aging scorer? I agree that the coaching should increase the accountability of our players on defense and rebounding, but not because we now have to overcome the deficiencies of our 37 year old star who isn't going to do those things, but because that should be part of their all around game. In my opinion, we should get a PF who will also do those things.
I want a PF who ranks higher than 3rd percentile in OREB rate (as Durant does). He's a fine defensive rebounder (66th percentile), but he's not a better rebounder than other options discussed to varying degrees of feasibility (PJ Washingtonm Santi Aldama, Jarace Walker, John Collins, Naz Reid all dwarf him in actual rebounding rate on both ends of the court). I want a PF who is a better defender. What I don't value as highly is what Durant brings (elite scoring), because I don't want our newly acquired star PG, reigning ROY or #2 draft pick relegated to 3rd, 4th and 5th options (which they will be... because Kevin isn't, nor should he, going to be supplanted as a scoring option by those guys). I want Castle and Harper, specifically, to develop with more significant opportunity than the scraps left over after Wemby, KD and Fox eat. This may not be optimal for short term success, but I don't believe KD will make us a le contender in the short term anyway so I'd rather prioritize the long term.
If we acquired KD, I'd certainly root for him and I think we'll be better. I've even said at between Giannis and KD, I'd rather go for KD because of the cost associated. But if we do get KD, I hope it's only a 1-year deal and part of his value is viewed as an expiring that helps us manage the larger contracts to come, because I view the tax line as a hard cap for this franchise.
So yes... we do see the same things when we watch the Spurs. But sometimes I wonder if when you read other people's posts, if you are reading the same thing as me... because you seem to misinterpret them a lot (in this case, interpreting my having a problem with Durant's deficiencies on this team as some kind of lack of a desire for the rest of our team to improve on their deficiencies. Our guys can improve on those things without having to do so because we brought in KD).
Last edited by scott; 05-30-2025 at 07:31 PM.
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