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From my amateur vantage point, seems like he's not as good a defender as rookie Sochan, but he's starting off from a better place as far as shooting talent and offensive IQ.
With that said, I see them as slightly different but similar prospects.
Why are you including Barnes? In this scenario Barnes would be on the bench and Sochan would be the starter. So you can’t include Barnes in this at all. Besides Vassell, every other starter (Fox, Castle, Wemby, and Sochan) are all subpar shooters. My premise is that Sochan can’t be a starter on our team and we make the playoffs due solely to the fact that we don’t have shooters in our starting lineup.
Someone else brought up OKC and them playing Harenstein and I responded that OKC has good shooters who are actual threats from beyond the arc. We don’t have those in our SL.
Now as far as Carter goes, I believe it’s too early to start him. But honestly is there any reason he shouldn’t be getting KJ’s minutes? I’m salivating at the idea of a bench unit of Champ, Bryant, Kornet, Harper, and Sochan. The defensive prowess of that unit would be off the charts and I think would solve the whole we get down big when Wemby goes to the bench problem
From my amateur vantage point, seems like he's not as good a defender as rookie Sochan, but he's starting off from a better place as far as shooting talent and offensive IQ.
With that said, I see them as slightly different but similar prospects.
Expecting any more than a pure off-ball wing offensively is purely wishful thinking at this point. Shane Battier, Danny Green - that's the blueprint; neither of these guys ever averaged 12+ at any point in their careers except Battier's rookie season, and yet were the highest impact off ball wings of the last generation. This should be the reasonable blueprint for Bryant.
Looking for a couple things these next two seasons:
1. That three point shot has to come around. It's harder for him because he plays a high energy style and it's harder to shoot straight when you're tired (Curry is a god shooting the way he does with his playstyle), but it needs to come around. Spot up, relocation, single dribble. He shot 80+% FT on a higher sample size in HS, so his touch is probably decent.
2. Defensive rep - OKC taught me that half of what makes for a good defender in the NBA is how much you're allowed to foul the other team. As good defenders get a better rep, they get to foul more without getting called. I like how Bryant is talking about defense all the time, seems like he's a good kid, and isn't afraid to play physical. The more the media recognizes him as a good physical defender, the more leeway for "physical" defense he's going to get, and the more he'll be able to leverage his athleticism and physicality.
3. Passing - I don't care if he functions as a pure off ball wing, you can't be an effective 100% pure play finishing wing if you're not an elite movement shooter, which Bryant has a low likelihood of achieving. Bryant needs to process faster and learn connectivity - too many times I saw him during summer league with the ball just get stuck - against good defenses he's going to get swarmed and turn it over or kill possessions. Or he'd throw a weak pass that'd lead to a turnover.
Solve these three things and you've got a high level playoff starter for the next 10-15 years
Let's cut to the chase. Let's get to the elephant in the room that will be important moving forward.
Sochan is a knucklehead and Bryant isn't.
I’d still trust the higher volume of 3 pointers.
Meh. I couldn't care less...
Seems like the talk when Sochan was drafted was about how he needs to develop his outside shot. Then, Pop made him a PG (of which I would say he was marginal at) that stopped that development. It will be interesting to see if he can pick it back up and make it work for him. Essentially, he's an outside shot away from starting over Vassell.
Hopefully, Carter won't have a year or two derailment from his 3-D development.
Don't we kind of already have a slightly smaller version of 65th percentile outcome Carter Bryant on the roster already, in Julian Champagnie? I agree this is who we want Bryant to be (and in generally we could just use more and more of these types of guys around our ball dominant "Big 4" of Wemby/Fox/Castle/Harper)... but maybe we should also just play Champ more in place of Keldon, who's playstyle just doesn't fit at all, or trying to force Vassell isn't to this type of player.
I think this is best accomplished by letting Devin have the role that is probably best suited to him: 6th man.
Fox/Harper
Castle/Vassell
Champ/Bryant
Sochan/Barnes/Lunch Lady
Wemby/Korndog
Because Bryant will need to slowly be brought into the fold, there should still be plenty of minutes for everyone with Castle or Vassell picking up some minutes at SF.
Yes agree with all of this - Champagnie is getting slept on hard still because he's getting jerked around with his minutes. People don't realize that Champagnie is actually the highest gravity shooter on the team when you take into account both percentage and volume rate adjusted - 4.5 3PM/100 vs 3.9 for Vassell vs 3.4 for Barnes vs. 2.3 for Keldon while defending better than any of them. His issue is he's so inconsistent and during his extended bad stretches he looks like complete ass. But it's a little depressing that of all the guys on the roster, he comes closest to a minimum standard of "decent 3, decent D" that you want from an off ball wing.
IMO, Sochan shouldn't start. His defense isn't good enough to counter the lack of offensive threat he is not - whenever he's on the floor the Spurs are essentially playing 4 on 5 on offense.
Prime Barnes is what Sochan and Bryant need to become - until his defense is a clear liability, his floor spacing is needed.
I don't know who should start between Vassell and Champ. I could easily see Champ getting more minutes this year but when you're paying Vassell $27M, I don't know if the FO will go for that.
Can't deny it.
Guys who are aggressive and foul a lot on defense while still occasionally generating events get the benefit of the doubt too often. Not just Caruso or Cason, it's Draymond, it's Dillon Brooks, it's Marcus Smart, it's everyone with a pulse who attacks for long enough. Reputation and it's impact on the game is the immeasurable force in the basketball analytics universe.
I think Castle recognizes the oversized influence of officiating on on-court performance on both sides as well, which was one of the reasons he did the dunk contest this year. Wemby's media gravity already helps spurs guys; any young player who's recognized early by the media has a higher chance of getting a favorable whistle. This is critical when you have guys whose game relies on physicality and is heavily affected by refs either blowing or swallowing their whistle. Look at how SGA sucks off the officials every chance he gets - it's no coincidence, these guys know how to play the game within the game.
I agree actually, I was just trying to balance things a little bit out in the event Champ started (especially on the boards)... and avoid coming off as a complete Sochan hater (which I don't think I am... but I'm definitely a Sochan skeptic and lower on him than general consensus). I'd think Fox/Castle/Champ/Barnes/Wemby would be my preferred starting 5.
As much as we might want to pretend otherwise, IMO this was also the case going all the way back to Bowen. Kawhi is the only guy I can think of who's elite perimeter D wasn't really just a function of being allowed to foul all the time.
So, you say Sochan would be averaging more pts per game than Jones-Garcia in Summer League, right now?
We’re talking 3pts shooting, and yes SGA isn’t elite at this, just like Fox.I uh... huh?
Fox as good as the MVP? SGA is clearly not elite?
Vassell is as good as which?
Barnes is better than who and how?
Wemby is only as good as Holmgren?
What is happening where you are?
I'm calling an Intervention!
And since you now understood we’re talking 3pts, you can get the rest of my message
Had you been more attentive, perhaps you’d avoided to mock me…
He won't be coached by lunatic who starts him as a point guard
You can't have a number 2 pick on the bench for long. He's going to want out if he's a backup.
When Harper beats out the guy in front of him, he’ll start
nobody said SGA was elite. I said that OKC can start Hartenstein bc they have 4 threats to make 3s in SGA, Dort, Williams, and Chet. And we don’t have 4 threats from downtown in our starting line up. That’s just a fact. You randomly brought up elite. But all 4 of those players are above average at shooting the 3 ball while in our line up we have one such player.
Then you tried to have your cake and eat it too by bringing up Barnes stats to help your case when in the proposed scenario Barnes would be on the bench in favor of Sochan. And then you say that SGA who shot 38% from 3 last year is the same type of shooter as Fox who shot 31%? SGA is closer to leading the ENTIRE league in 3point FG% than Fox is to SGA. So yeah you’re going to get roasted by saying Fox, Castle, Wemby, and Vassell are all just as good shooters as Dort, Williams, Chet, and SGA.
To make it simple for you I will rank them.
1. Dort
2. SGA
3. Chet
4. Vassell
5. Williams (who is .3% behind the Spurs best shooter)
6. Wemby
7. Fox
8. Castle
So one team has 3 out of the top 4 shooters in their starting line up. And the other team has 3 of the bottom 4 shooters in their line up. Not exactly even
I know right. Wemby averaged 18 ppg in summer league, DGJ 24.5. Id expect DGJ to be a 35% better scorer than wemby, and thus the better player in the nba.
You do realize that that is precisely my point, right?
I'm not ting on Sochan, I like Sochan. I'm just arguing with the other poster (@mnky) that somehow thinks Sochan would turn into prime Michael Jordan just by playing Summer League.
I guess you quoted the wrong guy then.You do realize that that is precisely my point, right?
I'm not ting on Sochan, I like Sochan. I'm just arguing with the other poster (@mnky) that somehow thinks Sochan would turn into prime Michael Jordan just by playing Summer League.
I quoted just the right guy, try to follow the conversation and you'll understand.
Mnky seems to believe that since a player is good in the NBA, he can drop 30 as he likes in Summer League, regardless of skillset. I'm just trying to make him understand that that's not how basketball works, tbh.
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