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ITs wild how much people value potential vs a proven track record for nearly a decade in the NBA.
Sure - but what Im saying is nearly every time we all realize even though it happens it’s not smart. Teams continually making mistakes does not mean it’s a good thing. Im not arguing its an outlier or doesnt happen; Im saying with context of where Spurs are at I dont think it makes sense even if its not end of the world.
But would it surprise you or anyone here if in 2 years we are talking about “man this contract is not great?” I think it’s a fair discussion given it just happened and the context.
But Im not sitting here dooming it and saying Spurs are idiots who f’d up everything either.
ITs wild how much people value potential vs a proven track record for nearly a decade in the NBA.
There is a real possibility that Fox and Harper will never reach 2023 Fox.
I'm with you when you say its not great or awful. Where I'm not with you, is when you say it doesn't make sense. Given that the point we're reanalyzing this is basically at the draft, I don't see how anything you've learned since the draft makes you think its the right choice to not sign him to the Max. That doesn't mean the contract is magically great, but that clearly is the best route that the Spurs have to make. You still have to decide on what to do with Fox in one year, and you are very unlikely to think that you can hand the team over to Castle and/or Harper in that year so how is making that decision in the offseason any better than signing him now? You've put yourself in a substantially worse situation and don't really get anything for it!
Any contract we sign has the potential of not being great in two years.
We can sign nothing but value contracts... or we can avoid having Top 20-45 guys who will cost max deals on our team... but then we probably won't be very good.
I want us to be good, and having a Top 30 player is helpful to that. Those players cost the max. Would it have been nice to get a discount? Of course. But homie got paid what players his caliber get paid. The alternative seems to be not having him on the team. I prefer him on the team.
Thats fair - Im very high on Castle but I also understand theres still hills to climb for him to be any where near Fox level and no guarantees he gets there. But hes so young and so much potential and we get years of relatively cheap money to see what happens.
The mystery box could be a boat!
I understand it but Spurs have been doing this for years without getting in return honestly. But, if they made the promise they are right to keep it. Fox doesnt care about Harper and he shouldn’t.
And, the league appears to be trending in a direction that lends itself to having all 3 of Fox, Harper and Castle on the team (but ideally if they are able to shoot a decent % at volume). I don't see this as a situation where they are crowding each other out, at least not in the near (2-3 years) term.
Should check the late 90s man. Jordan made something like 125% of the cap in 1998 and Ewing was around 75% of the cap before the lockout.Here is the top paid player as a % of the cap going back to 2011 and then highest paid going forward based on currently signed deals and the estimated cap from 2025-2030.
2011 - Kobe 43.9%
2012 - Kobe 48.0%
2013 - Kobe 51.9% (!!!)
2014 - Kobe 37.3% (#2 was Joe Johnson at 36.8%)
2015 - Kobe 35.7%
2016 - LeBron 32.9% (#2 was Mike Conley followed by Demar Derozan, speaking of not great players getting paid)
2017 - Steph 35.0%
2018 - Steph 36.8%
2019 - Steph 36.9%
2020 - Steph 39.4%
2021 - Steph 40.7%
2022 - Steph 38.9%
2023 - Steph 38.2%
2024 - Steph 39.7%
2025 - Steph 38.5%
2026 - Steph 36.8%
2027 - Embiid 36.0%
2028 - Embiid 36.8%
2029 - Shai 36.8%
2030 - Shai 37.5%
But throughout all of those years there have always been "not great players" getting paid the max. In 2030, Mikal Bridges will be making 31% of the cap. He's not a great player. I already pointed out Joe Johnson, Mike Conley and DDR. In 2011, WAS was paying Rashard Lewis 36.4% of the cap. Rudy Gay was getting 30.6% of the Cap in 2014. In 2019, John Wall was getting 35% and Tobias Harris was getting 30%.
There will always been these "not great players" getting max deals because the max is too low to truly allocate the cap according to pure value. Kobe getting 50% of the cap was probably about what Jokic and Giannis would be worth these days if they weren't capped, and then maybe you'd see less of these middling max deals. But since there are 30 teams and the cap is limited to 25-35% of the cap, you'll always have at least the top 30 players getting a max.
What if guys like Fox and Durant (reportedly) wanting to come here is the return? We're assigning all of the equity to Wemby, and there is no real way to know, but I imagine the way the Spurs have treated players over the years (and having guys like DDR and Derrick White say positive things in that context) is playing into that. What other return are we hoping for? We're a small market team, we can't afford the reputation of being incompetent wads, or next thing you know we'll be SAC/CHA/NOP.
Sure - I get that. It’s not about the basketball aspect; just the complications as it ages.
Essentially 2 FRPs and some second rounders who no one gives a about, and getting rid of Collins, for Fox is a fleece. Sac said it themselves, and were pissed at Klutch for strong-arming them. This is Fox btw, whose not only an elite top-tier talent, but a top 5-10 point guard, a position that synergies perfectly with Wemby. Fox would get a max in any team he's on. Spurs reward that with a less than max deal, and ruin a relationship with Fox, Klutch, Wemby most likely, and every other star who would would ever want to play here?
Oh yeah for sure. I wish Spotrac went back that far! I was just saying - after Kobe's deal, things settled into where they are now. The 35% max is honestly too low for truly great players like Jokic, Giannis, and (eventually) Wemby... the result is that more max deals go to these Top 16-45 guys. The league could easily devise a structure where the top 15 players made more and the next tier of guys (I'm calling Top 16-45) made less... but the union didn't want that.Should check the late 90s man. Jordan made something like 125% of the cap in 1998 and Ewing was around 75% of the cap before the lockout.
Im fine with Max deals for guys that are pristine fits….its not just about the money. It’s not my money lol. I think Fox is going to be damn good here honestly - Im not mad at the fit and I liked the trade.
We got exactly one max contract. Calm down on talking about how restrictive the new cba is
I dont think Spurs acting rationally in this case (unexpectedly landing Harper) would have had anyone looking at the Spurs like bad guys for doing what 99% of people agreed was rational (not maxing Fox). But I get the perception and understand reality
I'm not sure I agree with that (and I also don't think landing Harper should in any way impact what you pay Fox anyway, because there is plenty of room for them both, IMO). I agree it could make sense for the team if they pivoted because they landed Harper... but from the player's POV it still looks like the Spurs going back on their promises. It sends a signal to everyone else that the Spurs might do the same thing next summer if they luck into Booker/Dybansta/Peterson. The message being sent is that you're only part of our plans until something better comes along. It's understandable, but that certainly would play into a player's mind, right? "It's not personal, it's just business" is easy to say... but a lot of these players take it quite personally.
It's like if a company lays off a bunch of people. It might be perfectly justifiable and make sense to everyone... but you're still the company that lays people off, and the people you laid off are still going to hate you. Obviously companies still do this all the time... but that's just not how the Spurs roll.
Late to the party but anyone surprised by this is crazy tbh. As has been said too, if Castle/Harper become who we hope they can be then you just flip Fox. His value wont decline unless he suffers a serious injury and in that case at worst he's a massive expiring contract when they need to pay Harper.
Luka signed a shorter deal so he can opt out and make 80 million a year. Luka will make waaaay more than Fox (and rightfully so). But really what is there to complain about? He will be the same level player in 4 years. He’s not going to just drop off a cliff at age 31. Even the most athletically needy player in the league (Westbrook) put up all nba stats when he was 32.
Plus Fox is a known en y. We have to unknowns in Castle and Harper that every poster here has just automatically assumed will be better than Fox. Bc the only reason Fox’s contract becomes an issue is if we have to extend Harper to a max deal. I mean Jalen Williams from OKC is comparable to Fox and he is going to be getting the same money.
Spurs have one franchise player, one all star level player, and a pretty good third option in Castle. The Spurs are ready to win now. The only reason people think we can’t is bc we were so inept at drafting in the pre-Wemby years. Seriously if this team had actual good role players who played defense and shot well then we’d be a le contender today.
Sometimes I think it would be cool if every 4 years a player's contract value was decided by a third party that did so based on some objective formula (or maybe even not objective... maybe they just use The Ringer's Player Rankings and everyone outside the Top 100 just gets the minimum).
Then teams just have to go with that and construct their rosters.
Dude is straight up the 2nd best player here. A top 30 player who actually fought to be here.
Everyone else on the team is unknown.
Pay the man, shut up and let them play and figure out on the way.
IDK let's see how this plays out. I don't expect competence from this front office after the last decade so if Fox works out then it's gravy if he's Derozan stat padder 2.0 well then, the sky is still blue. Fox was getting paid, the Klutch GM was gonna pay the Klutch player, that was the deal.
His contract also ends when it's time to pay the young guards. He won't get in the way of their development, he will help it in plenty of ways. If they keep Harper on the bench squad, he's running his own team and getting the opportunity to make mistakes with less weight While still getting minutes with the stars and learning to play with them.
There are legit so many minutes to go around on the team.
Dude wanted to be here and is a great mentor. He wants to win. He didn't come for the paycheck. He could have got it anywhere he went. He wanted to be here and he wanted to win here.
It's wild people still try to spin this as a negative or surprising thing.
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