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I like this accomplishment by Magic, don't know if anyone else has matched it other than Billy Thompson but he benefited by going to the lakers and playing with Magic.
Won the NCAA Championship and the NBA Championship back to back!
Not once did I argue that he could make his teammates better than Magic. I just said that he does make his teammates better. And he is a better basketball player. There is no accomplishment at all that Magic surpassed Jordan in. Every accomplishment worth mentioning, Jordan surpassed Magic.
As for your ridiculous defense of Magic's stats entering into an era with more defense... there are some more stats that you overlooked, that Magic's minutes actually went up in those years, while Jordan's decreased. Not to mention, Jordan was playing a different style, as instead of going ISO all the time, he began playing a little more in the triangle offense, and started playing better team ball (which was also when he started winning championships... 6 to be exact... which was also more than Magic... one of them coming in a head-to-head matchup with Magic in his prime, with still an at least equally, if not still more talented team than the Bulls... only to get waxed in 5 games)
I like this accomplishment by Magic, don't know if anyone else has matched it other than Billy Thompson but he benefited by going to the lakers and playing with Magic.
Won the NCAA Championship and the NBA Championship back to back!
Jordan won an NCAA championship, and three-peated in the NBA... twice.
Jordan also has two gold medals while Magic has a High School championship.
Magic is one of only three that have won a HS, College and Pro championship and a gold medal. Jerry Lucas and Bill Russell did too.
Needless to say, both players were two of the best ever.
Last edited by samikeyp; 10-26-2007 at 03:34 PM.
Jordan was an asshole to his teammates and, from what I hear, acts like a prick to his fans. Doesn't change the fact that he's the GOAT though. No player will ever come close to rivaling his accomplishments.
this argument is ing stupid and should not have gone past 2 pages...
If we are going strictly by accomplishments, it would be hard to argue against Kareem and Russell.
Kareem:
19 all-star games
2 Finals MVP
6-time MVP
6 championshops
1st in scoring.
10 time All-NBA 1st + a bunch of 2nds
All-Defensive teams
#3 in rebounds (or was it #2, I don't remember), tops in blocks.
Then there is Russell:
11 time NBA champion
12 time all-star
5 time mvp and ridiculous rebounding #s.
Yes, Jordan is great, got as many accomplishments in his career, but it should also be noted that he was going up against the likes of Ewing and Miller. It's not like he was going up against Bird, Dr. J and Moses Malone.
You always start off your argument with stats or information that can't be disputed, then close your post with misleading information.
Yea, Jordan won against Ewing and Miller, who by the way are great players themselves. But he also won against Robinson, Shaq, Stockton, Malone, Kevin Johnson, etc there were many great players in the league back in Jordan's prime.
Jordan was not a great teammate. But he was a good enough teammate to win as much as he did, and he was certainly a better teammate than Kobe.
But let's not pretend Jordan has a flawless character because he won so much.
I simply chose the two more representative ones, two of the ones that are classic Jordan rivals. But I am fine with saying that Robinson (my favourite player of all time) , Shaq, Stockton & Malone, Kevin Johnson, Charles Barkley (one of my favourites), and Clyde Drexler (also one of my favourite), but none of those players were as good as Bird, Moses Malone, and Dr. J (with Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones and Mo Cheeks as the 3rd, 4th and 5th wheel to boot). , McHale, the 2nd fiddle in the Celtics team, was better than or equal to greatness in about half of the listed players.
And who was Russell going up against? A whopping 8 different teams, where 50% of the best talent in the league was already on his own?
And Kareem didn't have guys like Shaq, Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing, etc... to deal with. Not to mention he played an extra 6 or 7 years, only to have numbers that were SIMILAR to Jordan's.
No one said that it was strictly by accomplishments. But Jordan's are unquestionably better than Magic's. And there are no intangibles that help your argument that Magic was better than Jordan. Everything great Magic did, Jordan either was still good at doing, or was unquestionably superior. Aside from assist numbers, there was nothing that Magic was unquestionably superior to Jordan at doing that made a major difference on the basketball court. Magic was a great passer, and had great court vision. Yes, well Jordan did too, only he didn't have high caliber teammates to pass to, thus he had to take over games on his own on both ends of the court, which was something that Magic was not even close to Jordan at doing.
And again, while Magic was dealing wtih Bird, Julius, and Moses, he also had Kareem, Worthy, and plenty more to play along with. The balance in talent was even back then, as it was in Jordan's day. There were more stacked teams in Magic's day, and Magic was part of a stacked team himself. Teams were a little thinner and more evenly distributed in Jordan's day, as his team was also thinner than Magic's team, much like other teams he had to deal with. All in all, they had to deal with equally proportional amounts of talent, both on their team, and opposing teams. So the argument of having to play against better or worse players has no ground to it whatsoever.
Both players were among the best of the best we have ever seen. But there is not one argument that you can make for Magic that could put him as a better player than Jordan. There is not one answer for a weakness that Jordan did not have.
How could you state how Russell and Jabbar's compe ion, and totally dismiss Jordan's? Kareem didn't go up against Robinson, Shaq and Olajuwon, he went up against Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem (in the last couple of years in his career, and STILL did great), Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Paul Silas, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, well, 20 years worth of great centers, and he held his own regardless of when he played them.
As for Russell, that talent pool was already there before he joined, but it won nothing, not until Russell joined, and then they reeled off 8 straight championships, and 11 of 13, that is just incredible.
How was it that Magic winning 5 championships in a markedly superior era of basketball vs. 6 les by Jordan speaks so clearly about Jordan's accomplishments being greater than those of Magic? Magic went to 9 finals in 12 years, and him losing to Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Pistons and Jordan's Bulls is nothing to scoff at.
Magic was unquestionably the better orchestrator of offense than Jordan, and yet you wrote that off as some kind of non-factor. Magic was also the better rebounder, and later on his career, long-range shooter. Yes, Jordan was by far the better defender, but by balancing all the strengths and weaknesses of both players, it is not nearly as lop-sided as you would suggest.
Just for interest's sake, how do you view today's league? The talent is even more dispersed and even than those of the 90s, but would you put Duncan > Bird, or Duncan > Wilt?
Aside from Wilt, gimmie Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem over all the rest of those guys hands down. And personally, I will take Shaq and Hakeem over Wilt.
Against an 8 team league...
Magic also had a markedly superior pool of talent at his side.
I agree that Magic showed a better ability to orchestrate an offense, but again, Magic had offensive players to orchestrate an offense for. Jordan didn't. And you're nuts to say that Magic was a better shooter than Jordan. Jordan wasn't a great long-range shooter early in his career, but he became quite deadly around the time he started winning les. And of course he would have higher rebound numbers, because he was much bigger. Although being that much bigger, and only averaging 1 more rebound per game for his career isn't that special. For his size and position, Jordan was a very solid rebounder, even averaging 8 RPG one season.
I think the league has a very big, but very heavily dispersed pool of talent.
And yes, I will take Duncan over Wilt. IMO, Wilt was somewhat overrated, because he had almost no people his size to deal with. Nowadays, the league is loaded with 6'10 to 7'4 guys. Back then, most of the talest players were like 6'8, 6'9, and they were all quite small and weak compared to centers in recent eras. I bet you that Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, etc... could have put up equal or better numbers than Wilt if one of them played in that era, instead of Wilt.
As for Bird, thats a tough one. IMO, they are both very similar players, in terms of not being the most gifted or talented in the game, but having great fundamentals, smarts, and an amazing will to win. But if I was building a team, aside from Jordan, there is no player in NBA history that I would take over Tim Duncan, to build a team around.
When it's all set and done, Dwyane Wade will go down in history as a better player and person than Jordan & Kobe.
Lol, we will see. He certainly has had a great start to his career, and I can't say that it isn't a possibility.
I will just have to disagree with you here. Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg a year, and averaged around 22 rpg for a good part of his career. Oh, and he once led the league in assists as a center, also played 48.5 mpg for the whole season, and once led the league with a 72.7% FG%.
And the talent was dispersed that way. People love to site the 8 HoF argument with Russell, but Russell made those HoFers outside of Cousy, and maybe Heinsohn. Sam Jones was great defensively, but if it wasn’t for those championships, he has very little chance of making the Hall, same with K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey.
The league has 30 teams today, I am not going to say that it is tougher to win a championship today than in 1984.
And he won 5 championships.
There was not one team that was equal to talent against the 90s Bulls in the 90s, and yet the 76ers and Celtics were clearly in the same league in terms of talent with the Lakers.
Magic was 2 inches taller, but Jordan had a much better jump. Magic was the closest of anybody since the Big O to average a triple double for the entire season.
At the end of his career, Magic was a better shooter, especially when considering that the 3 pter was not as big a weapon back then as it is nowadays.
Wilt played against Russell (6’10”), Abdul-Jabbar (7’2”), Thurmond(6’11”), Wes Unseld (6’6” to 6’8”, depend on who you ask) and Willis Reed (6’10”). Height is not an indication of one’s ability to play inside, as Mark Eaton, and that Randy something guy (that guy in the 80’s who was around 7’3”) proved, and yet there were some very talented players who are under 7’0” in today’s NBA (Ben Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer).
To build a team around, Tim Duncan would be high on my list too, as he has proved that he can win with very different styles of team, but Jordan has not done so. Both of those 3-peat teams had the following things in common.
- Scottie Pippen, or an ultra active defensive SF who can create offense.
- Rugged interior rebounder (Rodman or Grant)
- A center who can shoot (Cartwright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington), and does not need the ball on offense.
- Shooters (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Hodges)
I am surprised Duncan’s got such high regards, I would start a team with Duncan over Wilt, but I will not say that Duncan > Wilt. Besides, if Wilt were given the coaching and training given to players today, he would be even scarier. He was just as strong as Shaq, but even more athletic and faster. Scary indeed.
Against a bunch of 6'5 guys.
It's easy when you have loads of great players at your side, and most of the other teams pretty much sucked.
Are you kidding? The Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Pacers all had very talented teams. In terms of completeness, they were more complete teams. It was just that Michael was so ing ridiculously good that despite having more talented groups of players, they still could not beat the Bulls.
So what if Jordan had a much better jump? If anything, you just pointed out yet another thing that Magic lacked in comparison to Jordan. For his size, Magic was a decent rebounder. Not great, but not bad either. He simply got the job done. But for his size, Jordan was very good rebounder. Not many slim 6'5, 6'6 guys that play his style and on the perimeter are going to average 8 boards a game.
You're ing ridiculous. You clearly don't know what the you are talking about.
And you are going to tell me that any of those guys are on the same physical level as Howard, Wallace, Chandler, Brand, and Boozer??? Again, you are nuts. Athletically, the NBA has risen so much since those days, its not even funny. Kareem had in noodles for arms. I think even Tony Parker could outmuscle the guy.
Different players and different styles are two different things. Duncan basically played with the same style of team all his championship years. Different rosters, yea, he had some different players, but the style the played pretty much remained the same. They all won games with fundamentals, rock-hard defense, patience, and smarts.
Jordan had very different rosters to deal with as well, but the teams still pretty much played the same style. Up-tempo offense, with a suffocating, swarming defense.
Duncan I feel was a better winner and smarter player. Plus he accomplished what he did in a much more compe ive and balanced era. I think it's sad that Wilt could only win 2 les with those loaded teams he had. Not to mention Russell owned his ass. No one has ever owned Tim Duncan.
Gimmie Timmy.
And again, you are insane to say that he was just as strong as Shaq. No way in was he as strong as Shaq. He was strong, no doubt, but Shaq would still back him up without too much trouble, as he has with every other player he has ever had to face. Not to mention he weighed around 50 lbs less than Shaq.
I could give two s how he treated his teamates, (he's the best player on the team, either deal with him or get the out) it was his off the court antics to me that made him a sellout. Thanks for the championships Mike, but off now!!!
I have stated before that this was simply not the case, Russell competed with people of similar size and strength. And I continue fail to understand why a person’s height would be of such significance. We are not talking about a foot different, we are talking about a difference of 1 to 2”. 6’10” vs. 7’
You are trying to say that Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Pacers of the 90s were very talented, and yet the 76ers, Celtics, Bucks, Rockets, Pistons, Blazers of the 80’s sucked. Sure, go nuts.
[QUOTE=stretch]So what if Jordan had a much better jump? If anything, you just pointed out yet another thing that Magic lacked in comparison to Jordan. For his size, Magic was a decent rebounder. Not great, but not bad either. He simply got the job done. But for his size, Jordan was very good rebounder. Not many slim 6'5, 6'6 guys that play his style and on the perimeter are going to average 8 boards a game.
Magic was 6’8”, he once averaged close to 10 boards a game for the whole season, and had 7.2 for his career. Jordan averaged 6.2 by being only 2” shorter. Magic, for his size and position, was an astounding rebounder.
In 1980, Magic’s rookie year, an average team shot 227 3pters, making 64 for an average of 28.2%. 1985, Jordan’s rookie year, an average team shot 73/257, for an average of 28.4%. 1991, Magic’s final season (not counting the stupid comeback), an average team shot 187/586 for an average of 31.9%, and in Jordan’s final season in 1999 (again, not counting the stupid comeback), an average team shot 223/658 for 33.9%. There is absolutely no question that there was a huge jump in the use of 3pters in the 90s.
In head to head matchups since 1986, Magic shot 13/30 for 43.3 3ptt %, while Jordan shot 4 for 12 for 33%.
In the years where their playing days overlapped, the following are the numbers
Magic Jordan
85 18.9 17.3
86 23.3 16.7
87 20.5 18.2
88 19.6 13.2
89 31.4 27.6
90 38.4 37.6
91 32.0 31.2
And yet the same guy held his own against a young Hakeem Olajuwon when he was 35 years old, having similar per 48 minute stats in head to heads wth 25.8 ppg and 9.9 rpb, vs. 27.8 and 15.2 (that includes the years when Jabbar was 40 years old).
He did similar things to Patrick Ewing, only he stood up even better.
Have you seen how big Willis Reed was? Chandler is a skinny dude, and has a similar build to Nate Thurmond. Brand is built like Elgin Baylor, neither Wallace or Howard was bigger than Wilt, and Boozer was like an average Joe back in the day. I haven’t even talked about guys like Maurice Lucas.
You mean to say that 1999 Spurs was similar in style than 2007 with all the improved offense and a total change in role for Duncan on defense with the departure of David Robinson? You hardly see 4-down anymore, but in 1999, that was basically the only play on offense. The 1999, 2003, and 2005/7 teams were totally different in styles. Yeah, they all played defense, so did every le winning team.
Shaq couldn’t even physically dominate Robinson with a bad back and a 40 year old Kevin Willis in his prime, what makes you think that he could do that to Wilt? Wilt could bench 550 lbs, Shaq does 450.
Last edited by ambchang; 10-30-2007 at 10:11 AM.
Dude, I'm not going to waste my time on this anymore, especially after seeing you constantly try to ignorantly justify your saying that Magic was a better shooter, which is ing absurd. I didn't even read that whole post, as you just seem bent on discrediting Jordan at every angle possible. Magic was great, but Jordan is the GOAT, and anyone that knows basketball knows it too. End of the story.
If you just stated at the first post that there was no room for any debate, then feel free. I am not in the position to say that Magic is the best of all time and then it's end of story, in fact, I acknowledge that Jordan can understandably be one of the best of all time, along with Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Russell.
It was YOU who ignorantly stated that Kareem had noodles for arms despite the fact that he held his own against Hakeem and Ewing in his late 30's, it was YOU who ignored the fact that the 3 pt shot gained popularity since the early to mid 90's. It was you who didn't look at Magic and Jordan's 3 pt shooting with similar defenses and offenses when they played the same years. Both Jordan and Magic were very good shooters, but the fact remains that in the years they competed together, Magic shot better. It was you who stated Russell went up against a bunch of 6'5" guys when it was a fact that the centers back in the day were mostly in the 6'10" range. You ignored Wilt's recorded bench press of 550lbs and Shaq's bench press of 450lbs. And yet I was the ignorant one?
Me saying that Magic was the best of all-time is not discrediting Jordan. I cannot understand how saying Jordan was not a great teammate has anything to do with him winning 6 les, bunch of scoring les, MVPs, final MVPs etc .... Because if I was given an opportunity to play on any teams in the past, Jordan's teams would not be my first choice.
In fact, it was you who ignored the history of the game and discredited the accomplishments of Russell, Wilt, Jabbar and Magic. If you are able to bring in any objective analysis of why Jordan's strengths are that much important than Magic's, feel free, because unlike you, I am open for debates.
X 6
When it's all said and done, thats what matters most.
X 5
That helps too.
Duces.
I heard you the first 5 times, but then Russell got 11 championships, and 5 MVPs. You can somehow dismiss Russell's accomplishments by stating that the era in which he had these accomplishments were different from those of Jordan, and yet you can't do the same between Jordan and Magic.
When it's all said and done, thats what matters most.
That helps too.
Duces.
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