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  1. #1
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    State is ing up the investigation and running up a monumental legal bill by separating kids from all their parents and putting them in state foster care (yeah, they won't be molested there) and denying everyone due legal process....whatever your opposition to polygamy...polygamy...polygamy....this is really about attacking communal living and alternative lifestyles in red Texas...

    Custody hearing for sect's kids progresses slowly
    Lisa Sandberg and Terri Langford
    Hearst Newspapers

    SAN ANGELO –
    With one objection following another following another, the biggest child custody case in Texas history is unfolding at a glacial pace as a judge decides the fate of 416 children removed from a polygamist sect’s ranch.

    The hearing, which was briefly recessed Thursday morning, reconvened with numerous attorneys for the children and for their parents repeatedly contending that their clients have been denied their due process rights.

    The state wants to the children to remain in its custody, while parents want the children to be returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints’ compound.

    After numerous objections, state District Judge Barbara Walther allowed the medical records of three girls to be admitted into evidence and turned to a discussion of whether family and school records found in a safe should be allowed.

    Objections range from contentions that members of the breakaway Mormon sect are being discriminated against because of their religious beliefs to an assertion that the records might be spiritual do ents.

    One do ent is en led the "Bishop’s record," and an attorney for one of the children taken from the compound said it should be reviewed by a special master to be appointed by the court before being introduced as evidence by the state.

    "The church is not in front of the court today. The parents and children are before the court today," Walther said. "What I’m trying to get to is if these children should be returned to their parents."

    At least one attorney said outside the courtroom that one solution might be for the men to be ordered to leave the ranch, with the women and children returning there under the supervision of state Child Protective Services officials.

    During the court proceeding, names were read aloud from a do ent called the father’s family information sheet.

    At least eight of the 10 men whose names were read had 16- or 17-year-old wives at the time their names were recorded on the sheet in March 2007, according to the do ent. The men ranged in age from their late 20s to their mid-50s. Some had children.

    A sign of the effort to impose order on the unwieldy court process is the fact that the children taken from the Yearning for Zion ranch have been divided for purposes of the hearing by age, sex and whether teen-age girls are pregnant.

    Each bloc of children has been assigned a color, and the judge is hearing objections by bloc.

    The attorneys representing various categories of children wear their assigned color on their required court badges. Purple, for example, is assigned to lawyers representing girls between ages 5 and 11. Orange is assigned to lawyers representing underage girls who are pregnant.

    Attorneys announce their color before speaking in court.

    "There is nothing normal about this case," Walther said.

    She said she was obliged under state law to grant the children a hearing within 14 days of their removal, and the number of cases made it impossible to schedule individual hearings.

    The immense crowd has required the hearing to be carried in a live video feed to a city hall auditorium near the courtroom. Walther this morning called a recess to allow lawyers for the children to examine do ents filed by the state, and papers had to be carried from her courtroom to attorneys in the auditorium.

    The case involving the sect has raised questions about the type of proof needed to take children from their homes.

    Hundreds of attorneys began arriving at 8 a.m. at the courthouse and auditorium for the 10 a.m. hearing before Walther. Dozens of the children’s mothers in long, old-fashioned dresses were seen lining up to get into the courthouse.

    State social workers and their lawyers hope to convince a state judge that all the children were either sexually or physically abused or at risk of being abused. CPS officials want the children to be placed in foster care.

    The parents deny any abuse, saying they want their children returned to their families and a place where they are safe from the dangers of the outside world.

    The case began when CPS investigators and law enforcement officers raided the Yearning for Zion ranch – where FLDS members have lived a heretofore reclusive life -- on April 3.

    The raid occurred after officials said a girl named Sarah called a San Angelo women's shelter on March 29 and 30. The girl told a hotline counselor that she had been forced to be a wife and mother at the age of 15 and that she had been raped and beaten by her 50-year-old husband, according to the state.

    CPS investigator Angie Voss took the stand this afternoon and told the court how she and 11 other investigators went to the YFZ Ranch that first night. She said men from the ranch met them at the gate and asked them what they wanted.

    Voss said she informed them they were looking for a girl named Sarah.

    "The men shook their heads and said no Sarahs lived there," Voss said.

    But they allowed Voss and her team in, and the investigators asked to see all girls 17 and under. They were quickly informed there were several Sarahs living at the ranch.

    Voss said that although no one was rude to the investigators, she became unnerved as she and three other investigators began interviewing girls in the schoolhouse. FLDS men were both in and outside the school

    "I was afraid," Voss said. "I saw men all over. It felt like that schoolhouse was surrounded."

    Several girls under the age of 18 were found to be pregnant.

    CPS ended up removing 416 children, keeping them first at the Fort Concho historical park and now at the San Angelo Coliseum as part of their investigation into the children's lives at the 1700-acre ranch. The state decided Monday to separate many of the mothers from the children while they questioned them.

    The FLDS mothers say they don't understand how the state can take away their children on the basis of what they see as an anonymous phone call that is likely a hoax. The FLDS members insist there was no such girl as the caller living among them, and that no one has ever been sexually abused at the ranch.

    The mothers say the Yearning for Zion ranch is a world without drug abuse or domestic violence or firearms, one where children are free to roam.

    "The children grow up with the freedom that it's OK to walk down the street," said a woman named Kathleen, who has five children in CPS custody and wouldn’t give her last name, "that you know you're going to be able to go somewhere and come back to your parents."

    It's also a world where underage girls are sometimes married to adult men.

    There's no minimum age at which girls are married, the women at the YFZ ranch say. The women, who talked to the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News, said there are no very young girls who do this, but they wouldn’t say exactly how young the youngest is.

    "We are law-abiding people," Kathleen said.

    The mother of five children hasn’t seen some of them in 10 days, since shortly after CPS workers and law enforcement raided the ranch looking for evidence children were sexually or physically abused. She says their polygamous way of life provides the same kind of support any family provides.

    "If you did have some children, don't your children enjoy the society of a grandmother? Don't your children enjoy the society of your sister's place, to make cookies, to do activities?" she said.
    Did the state shut down Catholic Churches it when found priests were molesting parishioners?

    Yeah, 4 more years of Rick Perry!!


  2. #2
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Oh, by the way, your paying for it all....

    American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

    <snip>

    One of those businesses, NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, with most of the money coming in recent years from the Defense Department for wheel and brake components for military aircraft.

    <snip>

    NewEra, previously known as Western Precision Inc. and located in Hildale, Utah, also received a $900,000 loan in 2005 from the federal Small Business Administration, the data show.

    The president and chief executive of the company is John. C. Wayman, identified as an FLDS leader and a close associate to Warren Jeffs, the sect’s ‘’prophet,'’ who was convicted last year as an accomplice to rape for arranging the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.
    Religion Blog

  3. #3
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    How is due process being denied?
    whatever your opposition to polygamy...polygamy...polygamy....this is really about attacking communal living and alternative lifestyles in red Texas.
    I am opposed to cults and child abuse. If neither exists in the FLDS empire, then everything will be fine for them.

  4. #4
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    How is due process being denied?I am opposed to cults and child abuse. If neither exists in the FLDS empire, then everything will be fine for them.
    Yes, child abuse is illegal in red Texas, as it is in every state. So is forced marriage and polygamy.

    This trial will, unfortunately, take a while. There are alot of thorny ethical and legal issues they're going to have to work through, of which we shouldn't expect much help from the women and children themselves. A defining characteristic of a cult is a profound distrust of the outside world, and I wouldn't expect these people to cooperate much with authorities.

  5. #5
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    How is due process being denied?I am opposed to cults and child abuse. If neither exists in the FLDS empire, then everything will be fine for them.
    Yes, tell us why the women are being kept from their kids Chumpy? and the Gove'ments only 'witness' to 'child abuse' has mysteriously disappeared...how convenient....but the kids seem healthy and have nice skin...and there is a pregnant 17 year old, too bad the age of consent is 17 in Texas....now polygamism is wrong for many reasons, most way to deep for the shallow minds here, but accusations of child abuse is not child abuse....get it straight...

  6. #6
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    You can always be certain, in any case involving the sexual predation of children, on which side Nbadan will fall.

  7. #7
    Cinnamon Girl mrsmaalox's Avatar
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    Question: I have not studied the Amish extensively so I am curious. They don't send their kids to state regulated schools, right? What if one of us decided not to send our kids to school anymore, what would happen? As i understand it CPS would be quickly involved. Even the home school option is held to some kind of state mandated standards. Now while I totally understand that sexual abuse and low educational standards are 2 totally different things, aren't they both illegal? How do the Amish get around that? Same thing for those parents who refuse medical treatment due to religious beliefs; they are always hauled into court and forced to accept treatment or lose their kids! Please someone explain!

  8. #8
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    You can always be certain, in any case involving the sexual predation of children, on which side Nbadan will fall.
    N(AM)B(L)Adan?

  9. #9
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Oh Dan you are just jealous. You know you want to join the
    Mormons and get you some of those "wives".


    By the way, when did you get your Law degree? And how do you
    like San Angelo?

  10. #10
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    Oh Dan you are just jealous. You know you want to join the
    Mormons and get you some of those "wives".


    By the way, when did you get your Law degree? And how do you
    like San Angelo?
    First of all, these are not true Mormons. They're adherents to a strictly fundamentalist sect of the broad LDS movement.

    Second, have you seen these women? I wouldn't want one for my wife.

    And third, I love San Angelo and West Texas.

  11. #11
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    Take that back! I am not a pedophile nor a polygamist, nor a defender of those who practice it. These cultists (the men, anyway) need to be locked up. I'm disagreeing with BasketballDave.

  12. #12
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    let me rephrase:

    Dan=Don?
    How about Dan does not = Don. Much better.

  13. #13
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    No, I do not, you doofus.

    I knew full well the message from Zebra was for BasketballDan. I felt the, um, misguided need to clear up a couple of facts in that message.

    (And it's just a vowel difference anyway. Forgive me if we occasionally screw them up. In Hebrew, there are no vowels!)

  14. #14
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    No, 100% Gentile! Christian by religion. And I can read the Old Testament in the original Hebrew.

  15. #15
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    Question: I have not studied the Amish extensively so I am curious. They don't send their kids to state regulated schools, right? What if one of us decided not to send our kids to school anymore, what would happen? As i understand it CPS would be quickly involved. Even the home school option is held to some kind of state mandated standards.
    It depends upon which state you live in. Here in Texas, homeschooling is considered a form of private school and the state has no say in it whatsoever. CPS can come to your door, truancy officers can come knocking, but you're under no obligation to let them in or even answer their questions. I don't think any other state is so lenient I discovered all of this recently when I decided to pull my second grader out of school because he was assaulted by five older kids in the bathroom and the teacher didn't even bother to report the incident. I'll homeschool him for the rest of this year and next year he'll be attending a small private school.

    Your other questions are more of a gray area for me. I'll leave those to the self-proclaimed experts.

  16. #16
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    I'll leave those to the self-proclaimed experts.
    You are too kind.

    I consider myself more of a semi-educated half-wit.

  17. #17
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yes, tell us why the women are being kept from their kids Chumpy?
    You're kidding right? It needs to be determined whether the mothers are comlpicit in the abuse. Even a math major can understand that.
    and the Gove'ments only 'witness' to 'child abuse' has mysteriously disappeared...how convenient....but the kids seem healthy and have nice skin...and there is a pregnant 17 year old, too bad the age of consent is 17 in Texas....now polygamism is wrong for many reasons, most way to deep for the shallow minds here, but accusations of child abuse is not child abuse....get it straight...
    That's what investigations and trials are for. Get it straight.

    nice skin = no abuse?

    You're a nutbag.

  18. #18
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    CPS says they separated the kids from their moms so that the kids could testify freely (to abuse, if it happened) without the parents looking over their shoulders

    at first I was pissed that the state would do that. but it seems like a standard procedure...cold, but necessary

    but i'm torn whether state care of kids is any better than them growing up on the ranch
    Were there any accusations against the mothers? Not that I've heard. Has the state found any evidence of young children being abused? Not that I've heard....seems to me that some people are forming opinion before the facts...but that's really not surprising given that some people in this forum love to chode on before all the evidence is heard....

  19. #19
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    cps testified yesterday that a 13 year old was pregnant..does she count as a child or a mother?
    At what rate do 13 year old girls get pregnant? Do we blame entire families or society? No we blame the person....so why are we treating this cult as if they have been facilitating child rape?

  20. #20
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    You're kidding right? It needs to be determined whether the mothers are comlpicit in the abuse. Even a math major can understand that.That's what investigations and trials are for. Get it straight.

    nice skin = no abuse?

    You're a nutbag.
    Usually, the investigations run before the trials. What we have in this case is the state moving in, without a single verifiedcomplaintant, seizing and removing women and children (why not go after the perpetrators, if any?) then packing them into the San Angelo coliseum to wait for their hearing.
    Get this straight.......
    Yeah, this is going really, really well.
    http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.co...t-yfz-was.html

  21. #21
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    i think they're trying to figure that out during the trial

    cps testified yesterday that a 13 year old was pregnant..does she count as a child or a mother?
    I believe at that age she would qualify as both as Child
    and Mother.

  22. #22
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Yep, in fact all the evidence I have read points to the mothers being just as victimized as some of the kids....now the state wants to victimize them again and put the kids in foster care where who knows what will happen to them....

  23. #23
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yep, in fact all the evidence I have read points to the mothers being just as victimized as some of the kids....now the state wants to victimize them again and put the kids in foster care where who knows what will happen to them....
    Yes, dan's math degree has also made him a lawyer as well as a demolitions expert. Again, it has to be determined whether any abuse occurred and whether the mothers were complicit. Unfortunately the best way to get the child's testimony is to separate them from their mothers. Now if there is such widespread abuse in the foster care system, that's a separate issue and I'm sure dan is an expert in that field as well.

    If the mothers didn't do anything wrong they will get their kids back. If they did do something wrong, many of them will probably have diminished capacity defenses or whatever the lawyers call it these days. It will definitely take time, but cults are ed up things, and the FLDS did themselves no favors by being secretive, insular and threatening to whoever came near their land..

  24. #24
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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  25. #25
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    and of ing course dan will side with the ed up... just as he loves terrorists, he loves polygamists...ecoterrorists...etc...

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