Flopping

[magui86770]

It aggravates me to no end that this has become a national issue. On Mike and Mike, Dan Patrick, etc... You cannot lose to a team in a series solely because of flopping. Also, I appreciate those Suns fans on their forum who at least acknowledge this, but sadly its a minority.

Also, I pull this off the Sun forum(via buttsR4rebounding). Interesting stats.
http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=110908


"The stats for charges drawn for the regular season are out. For all of Shaq's complaining about the floppers winning the first one it is interesting that Phoenix drew more charges than San Antonio and that Manu Ginobili drew fewer charges than Steve Nash, Raja Bell, and Grant Hill.


Those in bold denote playoff teams or players in playoff teams.

Top Ten list for Offensive Fouls drawn:

1. Derek Fisher (54)
2. Andrew Bogut (53)
3. Mikki Moore (51)
4, 5 Kyle Lowry, Joel Pryzbilla (47)
6. Allen Iverson (46)
7. Jermaine O'Neal (45)
8, 9, 10. Mike Dunleavy, Monta Ellis, Luis Scola (42)

Team listings

1. Indiana - 210
2. Memphis - 194
3. Milwaukee - 189
4. Golden State - 188
5. Chicago - 187
6. Utah - 183
7. Portland - 180
8. Boston - 178
9. Phoenix - 173
10. Sacramento - 166
11. San Antonio - 158
12. LA Lakers - 150
13. Orlando - 148
14. Dallas - 148
15. New Jersey - 147
16. Denver - 147
17. Miami - 144
18. Houston - 142
19. Toronto - 140
20. Charlotte - 128
21. LA Clippers - 123
22. Cleveland - 122
23. Philadelphia - 121
24. Washington - 117
25. New york - 117
26. Minnesota - 110
27. Atlanta - 107
28. Seattle - 106
29. New Orleans - 97
30. Detroit - 87



Spurs notables:
Fabricio Oberton (33)
Bruce Bowen (28)
Manu Ginobili (27)
Jacques Vaughn (14)
Rest of team (56)


Suns notables:
Steve Nash (34)
Raja Bell (31)
Grant Hill (30)
Boris Diaw (20)
Leandro Barbosa (15)
Brian Skinner (11)
Rest of team (32)"

[mojorizen7]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

[lebomb]

Pwnt!!!!!

[Cry Havoc]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

That's the point. It's not that the Suns are horrible floppers, it's that EVERY team employs this strategy. Even Ben Wallace fell over in the 05 Finals and drew a charge from it, and here's the kicker: He was past the 3 point line at the time.

Yet time and time again, the Spurs are pointed to as the team that does it the most, as being consistently over the top, and at times blatantly attempting to win games through "flopping". Meaning if Shaq barrels into the lane, and Oberto falls over, it's a flop.

And that's hogwash. Basketball is a game of fundamentals and control. If you're going into the lane and you have no control over your body, you SHOULD HAVE an offensive foul called on you.

Perhaps if officials awarded charges even if the defender stayed upright, we'd see fewer bodies on the court. But they don't. You have to hit the deck to get a call. So it's no surprise that players are doing just that.

[mojorizen7]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

[Jimcs50]

Flopping is no different than any sport where players use any ploy they can to gain an advantage.

ie. A NFL player trapping a caught ball and showing it to refs afterwards like he caught the ball. An outfielder doing the same thing. A catcher framing a pitch to sell the strike instead of a ball. A hockey player trying to sell a goal when he knows that he accidently kicked the puck into the net.

Flopping is part of basketball.....get over it.

[rascal]

Not all charge calls are on flops. Some guys are better at positioning for charge calls and others like Manu try to flop their way to a charge call.

[rascal]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

I like the technical foul idea for any unneccesary flop. That will put a stop to it.

[bus driver]

the best flop of all is:

[BlackSwordsMan]

That utah jazz flop cost houston a game.
So it does work

[bus driver]

[bus driver]

i like it when he falls then throws his hands back

[Solid D]

D-Fish and Bogut have been on my top-5 list of floppers prior to the above list being posted, so it's no surprise to see them 1 and 2. There is a correlation because over time, players have learned to "shine a light" on contact with the refs. Some are just more proactive at it...and those are the ones that I think are bad for the game.

For those who think Vlade Divac brought flopping to the NBA, they are either young and only go back that far in their fanhood or they have a bad memory. Before Vlade there was Bill Laimbeer, Rodman, Doc Rivers...plus John Stockton and Karl Malone pre-Vlade. Before them there was Lloyd Free and Jerry Sichting, Don Chaney and King flopper himself, Danny Ainge. I'm a former Celts fan so I had the benefit of watching some good flops from Bailey Howell, Don Nelson and Hondo Havlicek.

It's true that more players flop nowadays. Much moreso than in the early days of the NBA, but it's not new.

[cornbread]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

It looks like s0ns fans are taking a page from the Cuban book. If you can't beat 'em, get the rules changed.

[Cherry]

Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.

Are you talking about El Contusion, rigth?

[Jimcs50]

Nash flopped big time there.

[mojorizen7]

Whatever.

[magui86770]

I agree that AK47 flop, but that was also a foul by Scola. AK sold it more for the ref's benefits. You flop to sell a foul, usually an offensive foul, so the stats prove that neither the Spurs or Suns are getting those calls often as everyone thinks. Spurs are the champs, so naturally everyone thinks we are floppers.

I wonder if the stats only include charges or all types of offensive fouls.

[Solid D]

I wonder if the stats only include charges or all types of offensive fouls.

Well the stat you posted says "Offensive Fouls drawn".

[ancestron]

Nash did flop when Horry Hip-checked him. Yes Nash got knocked on his ass, but you can clearly see him throw his arms back to add to the drama, because we all know that foul could've killed him, man!!

[magui86770]

Solid D, I am an Aggie. That's my excuse!

[Cry Havoc]

Whatever.

It's okay. I would probably be against flopping if my players had no body control, too.

Wait... no I wouldn't.

[mojorizen7]

Nash did flop when Horry Hip-checked him. Yes Nash got knocked on his ass, but you can clearly see him throw his arms back to add to the drama, because we all know that foul could've killed him, man!!

but.....but....but.....

[fyatuk]

For those who think Vlade Divac brought flopping to the NBA, they are either young and only go back that far in their fanhood or they have a bad memory. Before Vlade there was Bill Laimbeer, Rodman, Doc Rivers...plus John Stockton and Karl Malone pre-Vlade. Before them there was Lloyd Free and Jerry Sichting, Don Chaney and King flopper himself, Danny Ainge. I'm a former Celts fan so I had the benefit of watching some good flops from Bailey Howell, Don Nelson and Hondo Havlicek.

I have fond memories of watching Doc Rivers and John Stockton flop. I hated stockton for his hold-a-defensive-player-then-flop-when-they-move-their-arm-and-get-a-foul-called-on-nearly-every-inbounds-play. He was a true master.

[MrChug]

That's the point. It's not that the Suns are horrible floppers, it's that EVERY team employs this strategy.

Exactly, but to take it even FURTHER every SPORT employs this strategy! Who here would call a boxer a wuss (which floppers are called indirectly) when he holds after getting hit. It's a defense mechanism and of the most fundamentally sound practices of the sport. Would the avid boxing purist get mad at someone who clinched every once in a while? No, because he would KNOW that.

Now would the novice boxing fan get angry if there were clinching/holding during a fight? Sure, because they knew nothing about the sport.

That's why I consider someone who doesn't understand/appreciate bringing attention to an offensive foul (a.k.a. FLOP) a novice basketball fan. Deal with it.