80s, 90s, or 2000s defense

[stretch]

I keep insisting that 90s and 2000s defense is better than 80's defense, but a friend of mine insists otherwise. here was my opinion.

Team defense was probably better through the entire league in the 80s due to better fundamentals, and less teams, so the teams that did exist were able to be more stacked, and there werent as many players around the league that simply lack talent but are needed to fill roster spots. but the offensive game was a lot different and was based on a lot more movement. defense in the 80's was judged more by steals, blocks, and outscoring their opponents, putting more pressure on their offense, often resulting in more forced bad shots and such. nowadays, steals and blocks are considered weak defensive stats, as true defense is judged more by percentages and points allowed, and shots allowed. stategy in the 90's and 2000's are far superior as well.

and if you compare the best teams from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Duncan's Spurs and Jordan's Bulls by far have the best defense in terms of both team defense, and individual defense. Or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Or the Larry Brown Pistons. No way in does the 80's Lakers or Celtics even come CLOSE to those teams defensively. Shoot, they weren't even close to the Bad Boy Pistons, which really started the era of how defense truly wins championships.

The Suns of recent years would fit perfectly in the 80s. Run and gun offense, and their defense is based mainly on steals, blocks, and outshooting their opponents to force bad shots. From time to time, they can stop their opponents when the game slows down, but against the truly good defensive teams and efficient/smart offensive teams, it doesn't work in a 7 game series. But because they can stomp on ty teams, their defensive stats actually ended up looking quite solid, when in reality, it sucks.

Crap, I meant to make this a poll, but i cannot delete threads. Oh well...

Opinions on this matter?

[JamStone]

I've heard the argument before and I don't quite understand it. People will say defense was better in the 80s and then automatically reference the Bad Boy Pistons. But, those Pistons were really the only team back then that played that type of defense. Teams in the 80s were averaging 110-115 ppg on 48-50% shooting. That was the norm. Defense got tougher with the Bad Boys and then with Chicago and the Knicks of the early 90s. But, in general defense in the NBA in the 1980s wasn't as tough as it later became.

[monosylab1k]

From what little I actually remember and what I see on classic sports these days, which admittedly isn't all that much, it seems like on-ball defense was a little better back then (probably due to the hand check, but there seemed to be a lot less matador acts going on back then), and down in the post everyone got hacked to with no calls ever.

But as far as midrange shooting and "team defense", IMO it was pure . Bunch of guys watching each other shoot jumpers for a couple hours. Anybody with a good midrange game could kill in the 80's. Although penetration & post play was probably more difficult.

[xtremesteven33]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

[stretch]

I've heard the argument before and I don't quite understand it. People will say defense was better in the 80s and then automatically reference the Bad Boy Pistons. But, those Pistons were really the only team back then that played that type of defense. Teams in the 80s were averaging 110-115 ppg on 48-50% shooting. That was the norm. Defense got tougher with the Bad Boys and then with Chicago and the Knicks of the early 90s. But, in general defense in the NBA in the 1980s wasn't as tough as it later became.

I agree completely.

And I think defensive eras didn't follow decades. as you say, the Bad Boy's defense was in the 80s, but was the only team to play like that in the 80s. I'd say defensive eras went from mid 70s to mid 80s, then the bad boy pistons changed it in the late 80s to late 90s with suffocating defenses, and then entered teams like the Lakers, Spurs, and Pistons who would simply suffocate and shut their opponents down when it counted and played a slower type offense, limiting opponents offensive opportunities, which runs into today.

[stretch]

But as far as midrange shooting and "team defense", IMO it was pure . Bunch of guys watching each other shoot jumpers for a couple hours.

agreed. open jumpers all day. not even an attempt to contest them. not to mention all that hacking, hand checking, and they let go on as you mentioned.

another thing to consider... defensive stats are far greater today, despite rules being geared toward helping offenses out, by outruling stuff like hand checking, putting in the cylinder, etc... where as in the 80's, defensive stats sucked, but you were allowed to completely mutilate your opponents. doesnt that say something? if you put the Spurs or Pistons of today back in the 80s with those rules and hacking allowed, their defense would be so ing ridiculous... and people talk about zone being allowed... well the Spurs and Pistons play their best defense when running man-to-man defense, and double teams with extremely smart rotations. defensive systems today are FAR ahead of any system used in the 80s.

[Cry Havoc]

I keep insisting that 90s and 2000s defense is better than 80's defense, but a friend of mine insists otherwise. here was my opinion.

Team defense was probably better through the entire league in the 80s due to better fundamentals, and less teams, so the teams that did exist were able to be more stacked, and there werent as many players around the league that simply lack talent but are needed to fill roster spots. but the offensive game was a lot different and was based on a lot more movement. defense in the 80's was judged more by steals, blocks, and outscoring their opponents, putting more pressure on their offense, often resulting in more forced bad shots and such. nowadays, steals and blocks are considered weak defensive stats, as true defense is judged more by percentages and points allowed, and shots allowed. stategy in the 90's and 2000's are far superior as well.

and if you compare the best teams from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Duncan's Spurs and Jordan's Bulls by far have the best defense in terms of both team defense, and individual defense. Or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Or the Larry Brown Pistons. No way in does the 80's Lakers or Celtics even come CLOSE to those teams defensively. Shoot, they weren't even close to the Bad Boy Pistons, which really started the era of how defense truly wins championships.

The Suns of recent years would fit perfectly in the 80s. Run and gun offense, and their defense is based mainly on steals, blocks, and outshooting their opponents to force bad shots. From time to time, they can stop their opponents when the game slows down, but against the truly good defensive teams and efficient/smart offensive teams, it doesn't work in a 7 game series. But because they can stomp on ty teams, their defensive stats actually ended up looking quite solid, when in reality, it sucks.

Crap, I meant to make this a poll, but i cannot delete threads. Oh well...

Opinions on this matter?

I've been saying this ever since I first came to Spurstalk. People think the defense was great in the 80s because they think of that as a legendary era of basketball. The new wave of defending and playing tight as a team for a full 48 minutes is simply unparalleled.

This could also help to explain why shooting percentages are slightly down, because so much energy is being spent on defense now, where in the past it was an all-offensive showcase. Playing good defense is tiring -- playing it for a full game, and you have to be in damn fine physical condition to have any lift at all left to your jumper by the end of the fourth quarter.

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.

compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

I'm not so sure about this. Tim Duncan is by no means a bodybuilder, and yet he holds his own (and more) in today's NBA. Dirk is pretty skinny, and I am positive that if D-Rob was a young guy, he would simply dominate in today's NBA.

[xtremesteven33]

I've been saying this ever since I first came to Spurstalk. People think the defense was great in the 80s because they think of that as a legendary era of basketball. The new wave of defending and playing tight as a team for a full 48 minutes is simply unparalleled.

This could also help to explain why shooting percentages are slightly down, because so much energy is being spent on defense now, where in the past it was an all-offensive showcase. Playing good defense is tiring -- playing it for a full game, and you have to be in damn fine physical condition to have any lift at all left to your jumper by the end of the fourth quarter.

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.



I'm not so sure about this. Tim Duncan is by no means a bodybuilder, and yet he holds his own (and more) in today's NBA.

i am speaking of the majority not the minority

[JamStone]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

LeBron is a freak of nature. He's much bigger than the average small forward even in today's game. Dominique Wilkins is closer to the norm of small forwards today.

Chris Paul and Allen Iverson compare favorably to Isiah Thomas' body mass.

Again, Billups and Deron Williams are the exceptions, not the norm.

Kobe Bryant is right about the same weight as MJ played most of his career. Kobe is currently around 205. Jordan played at about 195-210 depending on what part of his career you're talking about.

I'm sure that overall, the body mass of today's players is greater than back then, but I don't think it's as drastic as the examples you provide.

[Troll_Dynasty]

the 90's was the toughest defensive decade without a doubt.

[spurms]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

Yeah i need alot of clarification on this statement especially the jordan is a twig part, shows how much you know about basketball, as jordan generally outweights kobe, and is a tougher and more athletic player, pls do explain else we will leave to it as you being a moron.

[Cry Havoc]

i am speaking of the majority not the minority

Fine, but even so, how could you possibly list David Robinson as a rationale for players being bigger -today-? D-Rob was one of the most sculpted individuals in NBA history. Dude looked like it was cut from a Neoclassical sculpture.

[stretch]

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.

i couldn't agree more with your entire post, especially this point

[JamStone]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.

[stretch]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.

the sad thing is... that wasnt even the best bulls team... imagine playing the one with Harper and Rodman on it too...

[m33p0]

try watching reruns of those 80's games. you'd notice there wasn't much, if any, pick and rolls. alot of isos and post-ups. not much double-teaming. weak-side help was none-existent. alot of standing around. the only thing you could really say about defense back then was that it was more physical and clotheslining someone may leave you blooded but doesn't get you suspended.

[m33p0]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.

if worthy and kareem were still playing back then, the results would have been very,very different. the bulls were very lucky they never had to face a truly dominant low post scorer, and the lakers had 2.

[xtremesteven33]

Yeah i need alot of clarification on this statement especially the jordan is a twig part, shows how much you know about basketball, as jordan generally outweights kobe, and is a tougher and more athletic player, pls do explain else we will leave to it as you being a moron.

we are talking about 80's BBALL

-jordan in the 80s was a skinny ball player...look it up
-David also wasnt very bulky, just ripped in the 80's
-Bill Lambier was just a big guy with no muscle definition, just big, compare that to what we have now in..Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Yao Ming
-look up old 80's tapes man.....do YOUR research and compare thier body sizes to what there is today....

[Allanon]

Kobe's transformed into a rather "big" shooting guard...when he broke into the league, he was a skinny tall shooting guard. Now he's a thick shooting guard.

I don't know about how much or how big Jordan was but I do know two things in his comparison to Kobe:

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.

[GaryJohnston]

Kobe's transformed into a rather "big" shooting guard...when he broke into the league, he was a skinny tall shooting guard. Now he's a thick shooting guard.

I don't know about how much or how big Jordan was but I do know two things in his comparison to Kobe:

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.

Yup, Jordan has won 6 les as the lead guy, while Kobe has won 0 as the leader

[Allanon]

Yup, Jordan has won 6 les as the lead guy, while Kobe has won 0 as the leader

This is about size, not greatness, Jordan is still the greater player. But that's a different debate and I think those numbers will change. You can't just discount Kobe's 3 rings just because he had Shaq, MJ got nowhere without Pippen.

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.

[Findog]

Defenses and strategy are way more sophisticated today. Teams do a lot more switching ont he p'n'r, they will not necessarily stick their PF on an opposing team's PF, their PG on the opposing team's PGs (think Shawn Marion on Tony Parker), which results in a lot more cross-switches. There's liberal use of zone too.

A team gives up 149 points in a game today and you'd rightly call it a horrible defensive performance. The Showtime Lakers did that in a Finals game, in a series they came back and won.

[stretch]

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.

Not with the Blazers being in the league.

[JamStone]

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.

Where is your information that Jordan is shorter than Kobe?

Kobe specifically stated that he lost weight this summer to get quicker. When he played on Team USA, he said he was at 205 after dropping 10-12 pounds.

[JamStone]

if worthy and kareem were still playing back then, the results would have been very,very different. the bulls were very lucky they never had to face a truly dominant low post scorer, and the lakers had 2.

Worthy was still playing for the Lakers then. It was the 1991 Finals. I think I put down 1992 in my initial post. Worthy was still playing.