Solving the West problem

[Man of Steel]

Kori...doubling a guy like Chris Paul is the absolute kiss of death of all kisses of death. You never double a PG that can pass like Paul can, you never ever ever do that for the simple reason that that is exactly what Paul wants you to do...because that plays to the strongest part of his game, that's what will allow him to truly dominate.


Paul may cop a ballah at ude allah like AI or JR Smith or some guy like that...but he's not like them in that he will try to take over the game with his scoring like they do. He is 100% pass first and that what he wants to do first...he wants the Spurs to double him, with all his heart that is what he wants more than anything. And the Spurs must never ever ever do that.


No...absolutely best to take away all his passing options and force him to go mano a mano against Bruce...


As Sean Elliott once aptly describred...Bruce is like a rash, you can't kick a rash's ass, the more you fight it then worse it gets, until you literally go insane...that is the essene of Bruce Bowen, that is why this is a battle Paul can and will not win....the longer it goes, and more Paul scratches, the more it is going to itch.





As I said earlier...

#1. I think West can be defended...by our bigs pretty effectively.

But if he can't...

#2. He is the one you double, hopefully with Manu, and if not Manu then Parker. He's the one unprepared to handle a double team... even Tim Duncan can't handle....you guys think David West can?

There are about 2 bigmen in history that could truly, and I mean truly handle a double team...and West is definitely not better than they are.


West won't know how to handle a double team...Paul will thrive on it.

I agree with this 100%.

[slayermin]

I'm sure Pop will try doubling West in game two. It will be interesting to see how well he passes out of them. It took TD a few years to master that part of his game.

I also like the idea of Bowen staying on Stojakovic. His numbers in game one are way over his career averages against the Spurs, especially that shooting percentage. If he goes off like that in three more games during this series, we are ed.

[slayermin]

I forgot to mention, I am also hoping Ime gets in there against Bonzi. I don't want to advocate violence but seeing Udoka lay him out with an elbow wouldn't suck.

[tp2021]

well goddammit, if we can't figure it out, i pray that Pop can think of something... the spurs need a road win, and it'll be a of a lot harder to get one later in the series.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Why not put Bowen on West? I only saw one poster in this 4 page thread make mention of the possibility, so maybe I'm way too far outside the box. To me though, Bruce makes the most sense. He only gives up an inch or 2, but he'll stay in front of him, be physical, constantly harass him.

I think it's kinda silly wasting time trying to use him on CP3. I don't think in the long run he's going to be all that effective of stopping or stunting him. I'd use TP's speed to try to matchup with him instead.

I'd use Manu to defend Peja. Tim on Chandler.

I'd start Oberto, (or even Udoka) and let him defend Mo Pete. Mo Pete plays 20+ minutes for them and contributes 8 points. It doesn't matter who you put on him defensively. Ime/Oberto/Horry/KT. His defender can occasionaly help double Peja or CP3.

Too crazy to work?

[Killakobe81]

WOW never would of guessed ...the hornets woul bring this much debate ...i dont think u can just walk out and win ...but my guess is Tim will bouce back huge...and they have no one to matchup with Manu ... if you guys get something from your role players yall have a chance 2 steal Game 2 ...on the flip side u probably not gonna get 18 again from Bowen...

[E20]

Stop starting stupid threads.

Whoops, wrong thread.............

[timvp]

Why not put Bowen on West? I only saw one poster in this 4 page thread make mention of the possibility, so maybe I'm way too far outside the box. To me though, Bruce makes the most sense. He only gives up an inch or 2, but he'll stay in front of him, be physical, constantly harass him.

I think it's kinda silly wasting time trying to use him on CP3. I don't think in the long run he's going to be all that effective of stopping or stunting him. I'd use TP's speed to try to matchup with him instead.

I'd use Manu to defend Peja. Tim on Chandler.

I'd start Oberto, (or even Udoka) and let him defend Mo Pete. Mo Pete plays 20+ minutes for them and contributes 8 points. It doesn't matter who you put on him defensively. Ime/Oberto/Horry/KT. His defender can occasionaly help double Peja or CP3.

Too crazy to work?

It come down to that ... much like Dirk in 2006. The problem would be Bowen will have trouble keeping him of the boards. Plus having anyone outside of Bowen on Peja is asking for trouble. And then there's CP3 . . .

Basically, it'd be nice to put Bowen on all three. I think West is a lower priority but that could change with a couple more 30 point outbursts.

[1Parker1]

Peja scored 22 points in the game yesterday, and Bonzi added 10. Spurs need to concentrate on limiting those two's effectiveness because it seems the most doable. Guarding CP3 and West is going to be difficult. Making sure Peja and Bonzi don't go for a combined 30+ points shouldn't be as hard if you have Bowen and Udoka for defensive purposes.

CP3 didn't have a good offensive night, but he missed a lot of makable shots. Counting on him to continue to do that isn't a good risk to take.

I think the one game the Mavs managed to win, CP3 and West had a horrendous shooting night. One thing about these hornets, they seem to bounce back from bad quarters and bad games rather quickly and with a vengence. Spurs can't let their foot off the peddle like they did in Game 1 and for most of the regular season where they'd have great first halves, and sputter along in the second half of games struggling to score 80 points. Hornets aren't just going to fold.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Basically we. are. ed. If we had even a Linton Johnson III we'd have a better chance here. Put Bowen on Peja, it's the sure thing. Bowen will not do anything against CP3, its hopeless to hope that we can slow him down or affect him in any way. All we can do as far as he goes is believe that Parker can play Suns Game Three Defense against Paul for every game remaining in this series.

As for West-- it, put Duncan on him and leave Duncan on him. Have Duncan post him up ruthlessly, brutally, aggressively, and Pop needs to light a fire under Big Whiney's ass to get him to move those legs and stay in front of West.

[SenorSpur]

I don't love the idea of doubling Paul or West. Trapping Paul and trying to make him move side to side and then rotating back might work but Paul might also be too good. Trapping is what the Spurs used to do with Stockton and they do it with Nash some ... but Paul is just a whole new beast. What makes him close to impossible to handle is that not only does he have impeccable court vision, he also is quick and strong enough to make you pay for trying any sort of gimmick against him.

As much as I like Bowen against Paul, I think Bowen needs to go on Stojakovic. You put Bowen on Stojakovic, you can take him out of the series. Paul is pretty much impossible to guard either way. Might as well limit Stojakovic.

Regarding West, I'm not sure what you can do. It'd be nice if the Spurs could throw a Long Three at him who could guard him out on the perimeter and then have enough size if West tries to post up. But of course, the Spurs never did get that Long Three. Truthfully, West himself is more of a Long Three than a power forward. He's about 6-foot-7 and he'd prefer to face up rather than putting his back to the basket.

With West, I guess you just have to put Thomas and Oberto on him and pray he cools off. Maybe throw Udoka at him ... but that probably won't be too successful. I don't know ... it's the same crap as Nowitzki. The Spurs never got the Long Three so now they don't have anyone to guard him.

It's going to be damn tough to slow this team down. Putting Bowen on CP3, Peja and West would be nice. Too bad there is just one Bowen . . .

Maybe Pop will get desparate enough to activate DeMarr and give him a run at defending West. He's about as close to a
"long three" as anyone else on the roster. Of course, he's not known for his defense so I don't know how that would work out. But, he surely cannot do any worse that the platoon that tried guarding West in Game 1.

[whottt]

Why not put Bowen on West? I only saw one poster in this 4 page thread make mention of the possibility, so maybe I'm way too far outside the box. To me though, Bruce makes the most sense. He only gives up an inch or 2, but he'll stay in front of him, be physical, constantly harass him.

I think it's kinda silly wasting time trying to use him on CP3. I don't think in the long run he's going to be all that effective of stopping or stunting him. I'd use TP's speed to try to matchup with him instead.

I'd use Manu to defend Peja. Tim on Chandler.

I'd start Oberto, (or even Udoka) and let him defend Mo Pete. Mo Pete plays 20+ minutes for them and contributes 8 points. It doesn't matter who you put on him defensively. Ime/Oberto/Horry/KT. His defender can occasionaly help double Peja or CP3.

Too crazy to work?

Because David West is big enough to pick Bruce Bowen up and wipe his ass with him...that's why. I don't like Udoka on him either...


Call me silly, but when I see West knocking Kurt Thomas, Fab Oberto and Robert Horry backwards as he is dribbling, the idea of putting Bruce on him is not the first thing that crosses my mind.


Add to that the fact, that Bruce Bowen is not a particularly good post defender, and I just don't see many positives coming out of this...


If he's going off like he was last night, you double him...I prefer to put Horry on him as the primary defender with a guard coming to double, when he's got the ball, or even waiting until he's putting it on the floor..


I go with Horry because Robert Horry is an excellent double team defender...just ask David Robinson, and Tim (10 TOs) Duncan...

[whottt]

The idea of giving him different looks...well that's kind of what they did to him in game 1, he was defended by just about every big on our roster...if you want to throw Bowen or Duncan on him to make it even more diverse fine...but I don't really get why people keep drawing comparions to West and Dirk and acting like you'd employ a similar strategy against both of them.

I'm going to stay with the doubling as I don't really think the Hornets have reliable 3 shooting outside of Peja(who isn't really that reliable in the playoffs).



I won't say Bruce can't defend him...I'm just saying on paper it looks like a bad idea...but Bruce has proven me wrong before and stepped up to this sort of challenge, although I've never seen him step up against a guy with the power of West though...

[Brutalis]

We do not have quickness on defense in the paint nor speed. Our bigs are slow and Timmy seems to over commit on action away from the basket and get caught with the quick pass for a jam or easy 2. Not all were his fault, but how many are we giving up like that?

Let alone the Suns series we survived.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Basically, it'd be nice to put Bowen on all three. I think West is a lower priority but that could change with a couple more 30 point outbursts.

I already think West is a bigger priority than Peja. He'd scare me a of a lot more than Stojakovic.

West has been dropping a good 7 points more than Peja in the postseason.

More importantly, he's taken almost 7 more shot attempts per game than Peja. And they're higher percentage shots. And West has been just over 40%FG while Peja's at 37%.

And West gets to the line more often. During the regular season, Peja had 140 FT attempts to Wests' 353.

Recognizing I can't stop CP3, I focus all my efforts on West ... meaning I sick BB on his ass!

I won't say Bruce can't defend him...I'm just saying on paper it looks like a bad idea...but Bruce has proven me wrong before and stepped up to this sort of challenge, although I've never seen him step up against a guy with the power of West though...

I hear where you're coming from, and I do largely agree. I just don't know if doubling is the answer, and a little more creativity and aggressiveness might be needed in this series.

What Bruce lacks in size in this matchup, he makes up for in heart. Effort. Desire. He'll be more tenacious and frustrating than anything West saw in Game 1. I think he'd do a better job in getting down the court and denying him ideal positioning. He'd do better with his quickness of denying him the ball, and swiping at it when he does have it.

Obviously West can back him down ... but I think it's also more likely West picks up offensive fouls against him.

I think KT/Horry/Oberto simply wait for West to determine what he's going to do, and then react. Whereas Bowen will do a better job of dictating what he wants West to do.


I don't know. I could be full of . Maybe it wouldn't work at all.


A big help though would be to get it going on offense. Take it to them. The entire frontcourt has to do a better job of working inside. Punishing them. Making them get in foul trouble. Make West have to go to the bench and you don't have to worry about defending him!

[boutons_]

West is not going to avg 37 ppg like Amare did when the Spurs beat the Suns 4-1.

West didn't kill the Spurs, Tim did, coupled with another 3rd qtr Spurs collapse. As bad as it was, Spurs were on -8 with 5 minutes left.

The Hornets/West were very beatable last night, as badly as Tim played.

I ain't worried about West. The Spurs got a horrendous game out of their systems, and the game was very much in reach if only we had SOME output from Tim.

You're a bunch pussies Find your balls, if you can.

I'm not worried about West at all if the Spurs play their game.

[urunobili]

West is not going to avg 37 ppg like Amare did when the Spurs beat the Suns 4-1.

West didn't kill the Spurs, Tim did, coupled with another 3rd qtr Spurs collapse. As bad as it was, Spurs were on -8 with 5 minutes left.

The Hornets/West were very beatable last night, as badly as Tim played.

I ain't worried about West. The Spurs got a horrendous game out of their systems, and the gamw was very much in reach to an AVG output from Tim.

You're a bunch pussies Find your balls, if you can.

I'm not worried about West at all if the Spurs play their game.

now THIS is what i am talking about... i don't think Pop will make dramatic adjustments... trying Udoka on Wells and Peja will be a must for sure... gr8 post... we lost the game due to Timmy's lack of production more than anything...

[TheTruth62987]

#1. He was exceptionally hot tonight, exceptionally hot and I don't think the Spurs defended him poorly for the most part. This guy knocked down some tough damn shots.


#2. If he continues to stay hot...it might be a good idea to not around with it and go ahead double team him.

IMO, he's not ready to handle a pro double team yet.



The Spurs need to take West away and turn Paul into a scorer(preferably with Bowen on him) to win this series.

Neither Bowen or Duncan will be effective against David West. West has an amazing mid range shot, probably the best in the league. If you put Duncan on him, that pulls Duncan out of the paint and frees up space for CP3 to drive and score. I've seen him go off for 30+ points doing this on many occasions this season. If you put Bowen on him, West will use the size and strength advantage and back him down in the post, and do a quick turn around jumper, or drive on him. The only thing you can do is double him up, and if that happens look out cause CP3, Peja, Chandler and Mo Pete are going to have a field day.

[slayermin]

The only thing you can do is double him up, and if that happens look out cause CP3, Peja, Chandler and Mo Pete are going to have a field day.

That's if he recognizes the double teams quickly and passes out of them effectively. I don't think it's a sure thing that he will. It took Tim Duncan years to master his ability to pass out of doubles.

[Pistons < Spurs]

now THIS is what i am talking about... i don't think Pop will make dramatic adjustments... trying Udoka on Wells and Peja will be a must for sure... gr8 post... we lost the game due to Timmy's lack of production more than anything...

But don't forget that Bowens 17 points helped offset Timmy's lack of production in scoring.

Duncan, in the post season has been averaging 21 pints. BB just 3.5 So 24.5 combined.

Last game BB gave you 17 and TD 5 ... 22 combined.

Same overall production, it just came from the opposite player this time.

[SPARKY]

Spurs will put Bowen on Predrag for the game. What hurt the Spurs more than West last game was Predrag putting up 20+ points and Wells scoring 10+. West has established that he is going to get his against SA (ala Amare).

[wijayas]

Spurs will put Bowen on Predrag for the game. What hurt the Spurs more than West last game was Predrag putting up 20+ points and Wells scoring 10+. West has established that he is going to get his against SA (ala Amare).

Yes. And West plays D. Amare almost plays D. That's the big difference.

[wijayas]

That's if he recognizes the double teams quickly and passes out of them effectively. I don't think it's a sure thing that he will. It took Tim Duncan years to master his ability to pass out of doubles.

This might work. Double West. But still protect the paint, meaning Duncan stays on the low post; not guarding West.

How did Nellie disrupt Dirk's game? The same strategy might work against West...

[wijayas]

But don't forget that Bowens 17 points helped offset Timmy's lack of production in scoring.

Duncan, in the post season has been averaging 21 pints. BB just 3.5 So 24.5 combined.

Last game BB gave you 17 and TD 5 ... 22 combined.

Same overall production, it just came from the opposite player this time.

When Bruce is hot like this, Spurs normally win big. Too bad Timmy was off. But have heart. Timmy won't be bad for many games...

[clambake]

don't panic and pull an avery by changing everything that has brought you success.

it's just one game.