Harvey: David molds David, and Spurs feel it

[remingtonbo2001]

If Tim had an outstanding performance, and the Spurs still lost, then I'd be concerned.

I'm expecting Duncan to come out and produce tonight. If Thomas and Oberto can do a better job of maning the paint, I think the Spurs can take a few of those "extra" opportuniities away from NO and West.

[whottt]

Umm every great player can only be stoped by double team.
Dave once said something similar.

If David said that he was wrong...that's not the way you beat a great PG...that's the way you lose to them.

You didn't see us doubling Nash did you?


If you doubled Magic Johnson, he'd turn Kurt Rambis into a 20 point scorer.


I'll agree it's generally the only way to stop a great bigman...but there have been exceptions to the rule...like Bill Walton for instance. I'd say Chris Webber is a bad guy to double team as well.


Generally...you don't ever double a truly great passer, as that only makes them better.

And doubling a bigman never works if he has enough perimeter threats(which I don't think West does).

[DarrinS]

I'm starting to like West the more I learn about him.


Just the opposite is true of CP3. I don't really care for the way he carries himself.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Just the opposite is true of CP3. I don't really care for the way he carries himself.

yeah. i don't like how he's making bowen out to be. that last flop he did followed by the 2nd grade yes-he-did-it finger point was a little much for me.

[Don Quixote]

West is better than Amare!

[whottt]

West is better than Amare!

In some ways....the main difference is that West can be defended one on one by just about any big on our roster without it being an automatic dunk...that's not true of Amare.

On the flip side...Amare is much more reliant on Steve Nash than West is on Chris Paul(at least based on game 1)...

West wasnt' getting his points from Paul...he was getting them entirely on his own....that was the biggest surprise and source of alarm for me.


I went into this series thinking that if you stop Chis Paul you will stop the Hornets...and West proved he wasn't just going to stand by and let that happen.

[lefty]

Well, I don't think we should double team West.

That would be hitting a new low.

For starters, Pop shouldn't put Oberto on him

KT did a very good job on West, and Duncan was defending Chandler most of the time.

Pop should stick to TD and KT

[whottt]

Well, you aren't going to completely shut down the game of Chris Paul...I'd say he was shutdown in game 1 about as good as you are going to shut him down and we still got whupped, because of David West...

David West can be shut down..and if you have to double him to do it, then that's what you do.

I agree, he was pretty hot in game 1 and our guys were not particularly bad on him defensively, I don't think any of them were that bad on him. I didn't know that guy could create for himself like that, and he was moving all our bigs pretty effectively to boot...if he's turning into something special, you double his ass and don't let him become something special in this series.


He's not ready to handle double teams...it will be something new to him, and it will be effective against him IMO.

[TampaDude]

Now it's going to be hard to hate David West.

+1 DRob is the reason my wife and I are Spurs fans...kinda hard to hate on West now...

[DarrinS]

Well, I don't think we should double team West.

That would be hitting a new low.

Why are people so against the idea of doubling West? I think the way he's playing warrants a double-team (at least part of the time).

They doubled Tim 17 different times (that I counted).

[whottt]

Seriously...if anyone should know how effective double teams can be...it should be Spur fans.

The Spurs have lost more series because of effective double teams in the last 20 or so years, by far, than any other team in the NBA.


Virtually every loss of David Robinson's career was due to double(and often triple) teaming...that's what the Rockets and especially the Jazz did.

And every loss of Duncan's career with the exception of the Mavs loss(read every loss to the Lakers) has been at least in part due to double teaming.


It's an extremely effective playoff strategy against a bigman with a lack of depth or proven shooting on the perimeter...it's why Wilt didn't finish his career with 9 NBA championships.

The Spurs haven't done it much because they haven't had to do it...I'd point out that this hasn't kept them from losing..the teams that beat them were pretty much double team proof...the Hornets aren't.

[polandprzem]

Dave said that when you single cover a player in NBA he will always have an adventage scoring.

Yea and great passers and court vision players take adventages also from doubling them, so you have to figure something else - like help defense or shutting down the most probable passing lanes (like Atlanta vs Boston this year).

It will be intersting to see how West will play the 2nd game and what to do about it.

Still the rebounding and shooting is the key aspects to win this game.

[hater]

I think KT is doing an ok job. But I also think TD needs to man up and defent West as well. so it should be a combination of KT and TD. and Oberto and Horry should just hard foul West

[Spurminator]

Virtually every loss of David Robinson's career was due to double(and often triple) teaming...that's what the Rockets and especially the Jazz did.

Not that I'm against double teaming, but an important difference here is that David West isn't passing out to Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro on the perimeter.

[whottt]

Duncan is not a lockdown PF...he might be able to lock down someone like Kenyon Martin or something...but he's not going to lock down an elite guy. Duncan's defensive excellence lies in his help and team defense....not in his one on one defensive ability.

It's not the solution you guys think it will be...Kurt Thomas and Robert Horry(was) are much better one on one defenders than Tim Duncan.

[whottt]

Not that I'm against double teaming, but an important difference here is that David West isn't passing out to Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro on the perimeter.

David West might be passing out to Vinny Del Stoyachovich on the perimeter...and I say that because Vinny Del Negro may have been the worst wide open 3 shooter in NBA history...he actually wasn't that bad if he had a man on him or running towards him. It was when he was wide open and dared to shoot than he sucked.


David also had guys like Person and (mainly)Dale Ellis that let him down...


Duncan has been let down by guys like Smitty and Terry Porter, and of course Hedo.


These guys were all legit 3 point threats...who didn't shoot well when their big was doubled.


Some guys just choke those open shots being dared to shoot...it's definitely a talent to hit them. And I'm not so sure Peja has it...and I dont' know of anyone that particularly scares me on the perimeter outside of Peja. Not even Paul.


On top of that...we don't know that West has the poise or passing ability to hit those guys....especially after he's commited himself to scoring, becuase that's a talent too.


THe main thing is...if you destroy West's confidence by forcing turnovers etc with doubles...you might not have to double him much at all.


Put it this way...IF West stays hot and the Spurs don't throw some doubles on this guy and they just let him score...it will be an incredibly stupid thing to do on the part of the Spurs. I will be the first in here with the fire Pop thread.

[Spurminator]

Peja seems a lot more confident with the Hornets. I don't know if it's the Peja-head-on-stick love fest or what, but he doesn't have the look of a Playoff choker like he used to... and he scares me a lot more these days than he did with the Kings.

[Budkin]

I love David West's game. But I hope he misses every single shot he takes in the rest of this series.

[whottt]

Peja seems a lot more confident with the Hornets. I don't know if it's the Peja-head-on-stick love fest or what, but he doesn't have the look of a Playoff choker like he used to... and he scares me a lot more these days than he did with the Kings.

He was pretty scary when he was with the Kings until his last couple of years there...

Fine then...you put Bown on Peja, Parker on Paul, and then you double with Finley or Manu off Mo Pete.

See my point is that if the double is done right...Peja might not even get the ball.

The one disadvantage West has aganst the Spurs bigs is a lack of height...he won't be able to see over guys like Horry or even KT...


It's not as simple as you double him and then there's an open man that he throws it too...watch how doubles impact Tim Duncan when they are done right...a lot of times Duncan turns it over or continues to try and score on the double...


West is going to do something similar...this guy hasn't proven he's any great passer out of double teams...why are Spurfans giving him that credit? That's the second most difficult aspect of a double team to master(after scoring on them).

[SPARKY]

He was pretty scary when he was with the Kings until his last couple of years there...

Fine then...you put Bown on Peja, Parker on Paul, and then you double with Finley or Manu off Mo Pete.

See my point is that if the double is done right...Peja might not even get the ball.

The one disadvantage West has aganst the Spurs bigs is a lack of height...he won't be able to see over guys like Horry or even KT...


It's not as simple as you double him and then there's an open man that he throws it too...watch how doubles impact Tim Duncan when they are done right...a lot of times Duncan turns it over or continues to try and score on the double...


West is going to do something similar...this guy hasn't proven he's any great passer out of double teams...why are Spurfans giving him that credit? That's the second most difficult aspect of a double team to master(after scoring on them).

Parker on Paul and Bruce on Predrag is an obvious adjustment. I think the Spurs will throw some different looks at West in Game 2. They will have to be careful with who doubles West if they go that route. The likely candidate would be Finley. But the Spurs will need to be able to close out on Peterson when the rock is reversed around the perimeter.

[Indazone]

I think you guys need to take CP3 out of his game. Double the floor general and everybody else will suck.

[timvp]

even if they were to get past the Spurs...they definitely won't get past the Lakers IMO. This is not to say I think the Lakers are a great deal better...but the Lakers match up with them well

Agreed. The Hornets would be easier for the Lakers than the Jazz. They have Odom for West and a lot of options to throw at Paul. Lakers would beat Hornets in five.

If this Hornets team stays together(and if West is paying attention to Duncan and Robinson he won't be switching teams), they will definitely win a championship at some point.

I would agree except for one thing ... injuries. The top four players on their team are all injury prone. It's a miracle that they are all healthy right now. Peja has a bad back and he's 30, which puts him right on the edge of declining rapidly. West has been injured a lot in his career -- even back when he was a bit player. Chandler is always an injury waiting to happen. Even Paul seems to be banged up quite a bit. Plus, point guards as short as him always seem to peak early in their careers and battle injury (unless your name is Calvin Murphy or Avery Johnson).

All the stars are aligned for New Orleans. If you take away one of those four players, they become a much more beatable team. I don't think the chances of such an injury prone team to be healthy at the same time in the playoffs is that likely ... and will become less likely as they age.

As odd as it may sound, the Spurs' window is probably larger than the Hornets window . . .

[ClingingMars]

the fact that we only lost by 19 and duncan had 5 points should tell you something.

- Mars

[whottt]

the fact that we only lost by 19 and duncan had 5 points should tell you something.

- Mars

Yes...it tells me that the both the Spurs and Duncan got their asses kicked.

[whottt]

The only guy that won his matchup in that game was Bruce Bowen.