Racist apartments I live in

[JoeChalupa]

Applying it to the majority is what makes it racist, though.

If you've met ten black people and eight of them have been hardened criminals, you can't say that 80% of all black people are hardened criminals; all you can say is that eight of the ten black people you have personally encountered happened to share that trait.

I concur.

[BacktoBasics]

Applying it to the majority is what makes it racist, though.

If you've met ten black people and eight of them have been hardened criminals, you can't say that 80% of all black people are hardened criminals; all you can say is that eight of the ten black people you have personally encountered happened to share that trait.

I understand that but if over the course of our entire lives and many generations before us black people acted loudly in public I think its safe to say the majority do. If you see it regularely it becomes the norm. I'm not saying it applies to everyone but there's usually a pattern. I'm obviously speaking about larger volumes here not simply 8 out of 10. Its also regional too.

Dealing with credit for example. I would never say all mexican people have bad credit but I've taken apps from probably well over 4k hispanic people and I've only been able to get a deal written on about 80 a year in the 5 years I've been here. I admit I assume that when a hispanic guy shows up under the age of 45 its likely to be a waste of time because the pattern says so. I can't change or control that. I still work the deal hoping for the best but the proof is in the numbers and thats not racism its indicative of their lifestyles. Thats less than 10% workable deals. I don't think you can hide from consistant facts like that. The more northern they're from the better their credit is. I've noticed that since I was 18 when I first started selling and dealing with credit.

On the flip side I close nearly 80% of people over 55 and white and about 60% of white people in general. I've never ever had a bad application from an Asian or Jew either.

I don't consider myself racist but more of person who actually stops and calculates the odds, I toss out way more qualifying type questions with blacks and hispanics because I play to the pattern so I don't waste mine or theirs time, then I advise them on what to do, almost none will actually listen and take my advice.....but thats a whole different pattern of behavior.

[u2sarajevo]

Do you charge them for that advice?

Just kidding.

[BacktoBasics]

Do you charge them for that advice?

Just kidding.

No but I should. I can't even begin to tell you how many people drive themselves so deep in a hole that could have easily been avoided if they just stop and listen.

There are actually people who would just rather put 10k down on something and pay 19% interest than pay off the 5k in ty credit and wait 90 or so days for it to come off and make a purchase at 0 or 10% down with a rate under 10%. People never listen they actually think they're ty credit will magically disappear after 5 or 7 or 10 years.

There are people who still refuse to actually do the footwork and secure their own financing via their bank because its too much work. Meanwhile pissing away thousands in interest charges.

[CuckingFunt]

I understand that but if over the course of our entire lives and many generations before us black people acted loudly in public I think its safe to say the majority do. If you see it regularely it becomes the norm. I'm not saying it applies to everyone but there's usually a pattern. I'm obviously speaking about larger volumes here not simply 8 out of 10. Its also regional too.

Dealing with credit for example. I would never say all mexican people have bad credit but I've taken apps from probably well over 4k hispanic people and I've only been able to get a deal written on about 80 a year in the 5 years I've been here. I admit I assume that when a hispanic guy shows up under the age of 45 its likely to be a waste of time because the pattern says so. I can't change or control that. I still work the deal hoping for the best but the proof is in the numbers and thats not racism its indicative of their lifestyles. Thats less than 10% workable deals. I don't think you can hide from consistant facts like that. The more northern they're from the better their credit is. I've noticed that since I was 18 when I first started selling and dealing with credit.

On the flip side I close nearly 80% of people over 55 and white and about 60% of white people in general. I've never ever had a bad application from an Asian or Jew either.

I don't consider myself racist but more of person who actually stops and calculates the odds, I toss out way more qualifying type questions with blacks and hispanics because I play to the pattern so I don't waste mine or theirs time, then I advise them on what to do, almost none will actually listen and take my advice.....but thats a whole different pattern of behavior.

There is a problem with that, though, because all you're doing is looking at race. The majority of black people are A, the majority of mexicans are B, the majority of whites are C, etc. based, from your description, only on their ethnicity. That system doesn't address the other issues that may be causing a particular pattern or behavior, and treats it as an inherent part of their cultural make-up.

For ten years I worked in property management and we had rental units across every level of the economic scale. And, yes, I will absolutely agree with you that there were often certain trends that you could see when running someone's credit application. However, I never took those trends as a sign of the biological nature of ______ people, but rather as a symptom of the various societal and governmental practices and policies in and around communities of color.

[BacktoBasics]

There is a problem with that, though, because all you're doing is looking at race. The majority of black people are A, the majority of mexicans are B, the majority of whites are C, etc. based, from your description, only on their ethnicity. That system doesn't address the other issues that may be causing a particular pattern or behavior, and treats it as an inherent part of their cultural make-up.

For ten years I worked in property management and we had rental units across every level of the economic scale. And, yes, I will absolutely agree with you that there were often certain trends that you could see when running someone's credit application. However,I never took those trends as a sign of the biological nature of ______ people, but rather as a symptom of the various societal and governmental practices and policies in and around communities of color.

Well then you and I really agree. I don't think its biological but more a product of their upbringing. My point was more centered around it not being racist to stereotype if the shoe consistantly fits.

[Phil Hellmuth]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...-in-your-brain

"Deep within our subconscious, all of us harbor biases that we consciously abhor. And the worst part is: we act on them"

[CuckingFunt]

Well then you and I really agree. I don't think its biological but more a product of their upbringing.

Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, because I still don't quite agree with this. "Product of their upbringing" still seems to me to be a cultural thing and somewhat assumes a level playing field for everyone -- that, for the sake of example, black people somewhere along the line made a conscious choice to be financially irresponsible and/or live in the ghetto -- but I don't think that's the case.

Granted, personal choice is absolutely a factor in individual decisions (I've had to evict prior tenants who unapologetically opted for a new set of rims over a place to live), as is personal responsibility, but it's also important to appreciate the fact that it's NOT an even playing field. Communities of color are not given the same opportunities as white communities, they're not given the same access as white communities, they're not given the same level of hope as white communities; all of these are going to have an impact of the behavior and/or priorities of a particular group.

My point was more centered around it not being racist to stereotype if the shoe consistantly fits.

Again, possibly semantics. If the point is that people from marginalized or oppressed communities often share characteristics that are different from those of people from privileged communities, then I agree. If the point is that Mexican people act like _________ because they're Mexican, then I disagree.

[JoeChalupa]

Well then you and I really agree. I don't think its biological but more a product of their upbringing. My point was more centered around it not being racist to stereotype if the shoe consistantly fits.

But it can be seen as being racist when you stereotype. No? Even if that is not your intent? Like when people talk about NASCAR?

[JoeChalupa]

Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, because I still don't quite agree with this. "Product of their upbringing" still seems to me to be a cultural thing and somewhat assumes a level playing field for everyone -- that, for the sake of example, black people somewhere along the line made a conscious choice to be financially irresponsible and/or live in the ghetto -- but I don't think that's the case.

Granted, personal choice is absolutely a factor in individual decisions (I've had to evict prior tenants who unapologetically opted for a new set of rims over a place to live), as is personal responsibility, but it's also important to appreciate the fact that it's NOT an even playing field. Communities of color are not given the same opportunities as white communities, they're not given the same access as white communities, they're not given the same level of hope as white communities; all of these are going to have an impact of the behavior and/or priorities of a particular group.



Again, possibly semantics. If the point is that people from marginalized or oppressed communities often share characteristics that are different from those of people from privileged communities, then I agree. If the point is that Mexican people act like _________ because they're Mexican, then I disagree.

I agree. Excellent post.

[BacktoBasics]

But it can be seen as being racist when you stereotype. No? Even if that is not your intent? Like when people talk about NASCAR?

yes. No matter how much fact you have and no matter how much history is behind it you'll be called racist for stereotyping. In my opinion its one of the most crippling aspects of our world.

[BacktoBasics]

Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, because I still don't quite agree with this. "Product of their upbringing" still seems to me to be a cultural thing and somewhat assumes a level playing field for everyone -- that, for the sake of example, black people somewhere along the line made a conscious choice to be financially irresponsible and/or live in the ghetto -- but I don't think that's the case.

Granted, personal choice is absolutely a factor in individual decisions (I've had to evict prior tenants who unapologetically opted for a new set of rims over a place to live), as is personal responsibility, but it's also important to appreciate the fact that it's NOT an even playing field. Communities of color are not given the same opportunities as white communities, they're not given the same access as white communities, they're not given the same level of hope as white communities; all of these are going to have an impact of the behavior and/or priorities of a particular group.


Again, possibly semantics. If the point is that people from marginalized or oppressed communities often share characteristics that are different from those of people from privileged communities, then I agree. If the point is that Mexican people act like _________ because they're Mexican, then I disagree.

Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding your stance.


The only part from above that I agree with is the hope aspect. Otherwise I think communities of color have just as many opportunities as the rest of them if not more...stictly based on color. Most individuals simply don't seek out the opportunities given them, too lazy??? IDK maybe. Sure a nice white north side school has prettier nicer equipment and so forth but the south or east sides have plenty of ability to help people succeed when they want it.

The key is wanting it and most of those people are raised to not want it and simply blame someone else for their problems, just like Dad and Grandpa and great slave pa did. I think 30-40 or more years ago we could say poverty stricken areas suffer because they aren't given ample opportunity but there are simply too many avenues for the weak and feable to find a way in life for us to continue to push blame on something else.

Oh you're poor you have a different skin tone...here take some grant money. Here take all these wonderful provisions and programs we've set up for you because you're not well off financially AND WHAT...do nothing with them. With the exception of a select few that care. These people just follow right in line with what the rest of their family members have done. Products of their environment I think but they do have a choice they just don't know how to make the right one because they refuse to listen simply put they already know the answer....someone else has kept us down.

[JoeChalupa]

Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding your stance.


The only part from above that I agree with is the hope aspect. Otherwise I think communities of color have just as many opportunities as the rest of them if not more...stictly based on color. Most individuals simply don't seek out the opportunities given them, too lazy??? IDK maybe. Sure a nice white north side school has prettier nicer equipment and so forth but the south or east sides have plenty of ability to help people succeed when they want it.

The key is wanting it and most of those people are raised to not want it and simply blame someone else for their problems, just like Dad and Grandpa and great slave pa did. I think 30-40 or more years ago we could say poverty stricken areas suffer because they aren't given ample opportunity but there are simply too many avenues for the weak and feable to find a way in life for us to continue to push blame on something else.

Oh you're poor you have a different skin tone...here take some grant money. Here take all these wonderful provisions and programs we've set up for you because you're not well off financially AND WHAT...do nothing with them. With the exception of a select few that care. These people just follow right in line with what the rest of their family members have done. Products of their environment I think but they do have a choice they just don't know how to make the right one because they refuse to listen simply put they already know the answer....someone else has kept us down.

You make some valid points but it isn't always about being "lazy" but different cir stances within the family structure. But I agree that everyone has the ability but not always the opportunity. Then again one must make the opportunity if it does not exist. It isn't easy but it can be done.
But I do feel that if you really want to succeed this is the best Country in the world to make it.

[CuckingFunt]

Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding your stance.


The only part from above that I agree with is the hope aspect. Otherwise I think communities of color have just as many opportunities as the rest of them if not more...stictly based on color. Most individuals simply don't seek out the opportunities given them, too lazy??? IDK maybe. Sure a nice white north side school has prettier nicer equipment and so forth but the south or east sides have plenty of ability to help people succeed when they want it.

The key is wanting it and most of those people are raised to not want it and simply blame someone else for their problems, just like Dad and Grandpa and great slave pa did. I think 30-40 or more years ago we could say poverty stricken areas suffer because they aren't given ample opportunity but there are simply too many avenues for the weak and feable to find a way in life for us to continue to push blame on something else.

Oh you're poor you have a different skin tone...here take some grant money. Here take all these wonderful provisions and programs we've set up for you because you're not well off financially AND WHAT...do nothing with them. With the exception of a select few that care. These people just follow right in line with what the rest of their family members have done. Products of their environment I think but they do have a choice they just don't know how to make the right one because they refuse to listen simply put they already know the answer....someone else has kept us down.

That's only true if you think that the current welfare and grant programs are actually opportunities for sustainable benefit, or betterment. They're not.

They're broken, convoluted programs with ridiculous and often demeaning qualification requirements. They're programs that, even at their very best and functioning as designed, do little more than throw money at a problem without addressing its causes. There's no emphasis on education, there's no emphasis on the arts, there's no real emphasis on job training -- there are attempts at this one, but they're woefully inadequate programs that usually provide training for jobs that are still low paying, and don't address child care during the training program, which pretty much ensures that women with children are stuck as welfare moms -- and there's no emphasis on self-sufficiency.

[BacktoBasics]

That's only true if you think that the current welfare and grant programs are actually opportunities for sustainable benefit, or betterment. They're not.

They're broken, convoluted programs with ridiculous and often demeaning qualification requirements. They're programs that, even at their very best and functioning as designed, do little more than throw money at a problem without addressing its causes. There's no emphasis on education, there's no emphasis on the arts, there's no real emphasis on job training -- there are attempts at this one, but they're woefully inadequate programs that usually provide training for jobs that are still low paying, and don't address child care during the training program, which pretty much ensures that women with children are stuck as welfare moms -- and there's no emphasis on self-sufficiency.

I see what you mean now. Perhaps its the difficulty of the "redtape" that keeps people from making it happen...above and beyond the mentality, drive and demenor to do so.

[CuckingFunt]

I see what you mean now. Perhaps its the difficulty of the "redtape" that keeps people from making it happen...above and beyond the mentality, drive and demenor to do so.

Exactly.

[JoeChalupa]

yes. No matter how much fact you have and no matter how much history is behind it you'll be called racist for stereotyping. In my opinion its one of the most crippling aspects of our world.

But if the shoe fits?

[BacktoBasics]

But if the shoe fits?

cyclical isn't it

[dickface]

But it is in the lion's biology to hunt and kill (lioness', actually, since they're the hunters) thanks to natural selection

Ah but there's no way it's in a human's biology because those civilizations that didn't display nationalism or superiority of their race all died out, right? That's why we don't engage in wars to solve problems anymore - the humans guilty of that lost out to natural selection.

[Don Quixote]

PangDussy is owning this discussion! Kudos for her.

[CuckingFunt]

Ah but there's no way it's in a human's biology because those civilizations that didn't display nationalism or superiority of their race all died out, right? That's why we don't engage in wars to solve problems anymore - the humans guilty of that lost out to natural selection.

Human beings =/= lions.

Prejudice/nationalism/intimidation =/= survival instinct.

At no point has a lioness taken down a gazelle to prove to the elephants that they're the biggest badasses of the jungle. Nor have they ever engaged in a hunt because they just didn't like the fact that gazelles play their music too loud. And, I perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall the episode of "Planet Earth" in which the lions launched a major assault against the hippopotami so that they could maintain a controlling interest in the rights to the local watering hole.

[Opinionater]

PangDussy is owning this discussion! Kudos for her.

IMHO, there are solid points from all.