Kareem on Horrys Historic night...

[slowchild25]

I just posted the induction guidelines...you show me where it says a player had to be X ranked player on his team to make the Hall?

It doesn't, I'm just going off of what most voters have done in the past. Is Dennis Johnson in the HOF? Michael Cooper? Byron Scott? Sean Elliott? All good players who contributed to multiple championship teams but not HOFers. By your reasoning anyone that has contributed to multiple rings should get in.

[SRJ]

To honor and celebrate basketball's greatest moments and people

Horry is not one of those. He is a valuable role player.

The HO no one gives a because people don't go to games to see PPG averages.

Yeah, Robert Horry packs arenas and no one gave a about Charles Barkley.

I also like how you posted the entire eligibility process as though it relates to your position or Horry's qualifications. That's hilarious. Your quote:

What do you see...players and moments...

is absolutely irrelevant to the HOF guidelines you copied-and-pasted. Oh I guess you may be right in that the HOF inducts players, but that's the sprinkling of correct you've mixed into the huge bowl of wrong you've argued here.

There are no "moments" criteria.

Here, let me use the whottt technique:

There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.

No one sits in front of a hoop as a kid and dreams of averaging 20ppg and 10rpg...they dream of hitting the shot...and that's what Horry does you see

Oh...the "aspirations of children" criterion. There's something voters should consider. I guess if Robert Horry owns a pony that'll get him in on the first ballot.

In fact...even the HOFers dream of winning championships...like Robert Horry does.

Lucky for Horry he gets to play with real HOFers to help them out.

Tell you what - let's imagine that you and Mike D'Antoni are the owner/GM/head coach of an NBA franchise - one franchise for each of you. The best player on your franchise will be Robert Horry and the best player on Mike D'Antoni's franchise will be Patrick Ewing. Despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of whott's brains versus D'Antoni's, despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of Horry's clutchness versus Ewing's chokiness, your team will win 30 games a year at their best. D'Antoni's team will average 48-50 wins a year and get into the second round of the playoffs a few times.

If he played them...they were his team...perhaps you should figure out the English Language before attempting HOF arguments? Just a thought.

You know, if anyone else climbs into the literal closet, you'd be the first to call them out. Now you're pinning your argument to a literal definition? It's unworthy of you.

Can you say for certain that any of Horry's teams would have won a championship in those years without him?

Yes, I can say that for certain. Or did Tim Duncan not lead his team to championships in 1999 and 2003? Going through whottt's HOFer Robert Horry twice in the process to do it?

[slowchild25]

And you don't realize it yet...because he has done it to your team yet...

Actually no he has done it FOR my team and against my team. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that will probably make you dislike me even more, I'm an NBA . Before we got the Hornets I was a Shaq fan, mainly because he went to LSU. I followed the Magic when he was there, I followed the Lakers when he was there and then we (Louisiana) got the Hornets and I started pulling for them. I also watched ALOT of Houston Rockets games when Horry was there being as though I lived 2 hours from Houston at the time and they where always on TV. I've seen what the man can do, I appreciate his game but I just don't feel it belong up there with the "legends" that you talk about.

[whottt]

Just remember...the stats came after the game, after the moments. They are secondary, not primary...and that's why the argument you pose is backwards. The players, the moments...the game, the championships, they come first...

[whottt]

It doesn't, I'm just going off of what most voters have done in the past. Is Dennis Johnson in the HOF? Michael Cooper? Byron Scott? Sean Elliott? All good players who contributed to multiple championship teams but not HOFers. By your reasoning anyone that has contributed to multiple rings should get in.

And by your reasoning you should get off the computer immediately...


Because 20 years ago, most people didn't use computers. they probably still don't...and since most people don't use computers, no one should use computers.


That is your logic............................................. ...........

If not for someone realizing, computers...they can do ...you wouldn't be here now...yet someone did...did you tell me them they were stupid and shouldn't use computers because most people don't use computers? If you didn't...why are you doing it now?

[slowchild25]

And by your reasoning you should get off the computer immediately...


Because 20 years ago, most people didn't use computers. they probably still don't...and since most people don't use computers, no one should use computers.

No my logic is as soon as the voters start letting the above mentioned guys in then Horry can walk in right after them.

[baseline bum]

Nope, didn't forget about him at all.
I met him too and me too think he's a nice guy, but he didn't get HIV infected because he was filling all those hotelrooms with his class.

Getting pussy is classless?

[whottt]

No my logic is as soon as the voters start letting the above mentioned guys in then Horry can walk in right after them.

I see...and how many guys with 7 championships aren't in the Hall?


How many guys that have been the all time leader in playoff games played, aren't in the Hall?


The mission statement doesn't say the guys with the best stats...it says players and moments...and there is no comparison, because there's never been another player like Robert Horry in NBA history, he is completely unique...and that's another reason he belongs in the Hall.



Don't smash the computer just because you don't understand what it is and haven't seen one before...who knows, you might end up liking it...once you understand it.

[slowchild25]

Don't smash the computer just because you don't understand what it is and haven't seen one before...who knows, you might end up liking it...once you understand it.

I've already said it before I respect and like Horry's game. I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. Players that dominated the sport for long periods of time are the ones that should go in there.

Is Sam Cassell a better point guard than John Stockton because he won more championship rings and stepped up and hit some big shots in the finals for the Rockets?

[whottt]

Actually no he has done it FOR my team and against my team. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that will probably make you dislike me even more, I'm an NBA . Before we got the Hornets I was a Shaq fan, mainly because he went to LSU. I followed the Magic when he was there, I followed the Lakers when he was there and then we (Louisiana) got the Hornets and I started pulling for them. I also watched ALOT of Houston Rockets games when Horry was there being as though I lived 2 hours from Houston at the time and they where always on TV. I've seen what the man can do, I appreciate his game but I just don't feel it belong up there with the "legends" that you talk about.

Pistol Pete shouldn't be in the HOF...

You know why? Because when he was the best player on an NBA team...it sucked ass.

How many times was he even 6th best player on an NBA champion?

Didley squat.


cue double standard in

5
4
3
2
1.........

[slowchild25]

Pistol Pete shouldn't be in the HOF...

You know why? Because when he was the best player on an NBA team...it sucked ass.

How many times was he even 6th best player on an NBA champion?

Didley squat.

Alright you win lets get the Hall of Fame Plaques for Danny Ainge, Gerald Henderson and Kurt Rambis ready.

Seriously lets just move on. You feel that Horry is a hall of famer, I don't. You and I own probably 50% of the posts in this thread and it's pointless, neither of us is going to change our minds.

[whottt]

Horry is not one of those. He is a valuable role player.

And I'd say that's what Karrem was on his last 5 championships...

Yeah, Robert Horry packs arenas and no one gave a about Charles Barkley.

Do you have proof Robert Horry isn't a ratings draw?


What I know?

Robert Horry was replaced with Charles Barkley once...it was a bad trade.

I also like how you posted the entire eligibility process as though it relates to your position or Horry's qualifications. That's hilarious. Your quote:



is absolutely irrelevant to the HOF guidelines you copied-and-pasted. Oh I guess you may be right in that the HOF inducts players, but that's the sprinkling of correct you've mixed into the huge bowl of wrong you've argued here.

There are no "moments" criteria.

Here, let me use the whottt technique:

There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.

No...the mission statement comes first, which is why I posted it first...and there is a moments criteria...it's that it has to be a moment.

Oh...the "aspirations of children" criterion. There's something voters should consider. I guess if Robert Horry owns a pony that'll get him in on the first ballot.

It's better than a heartless PPG average...



Seriously...I better never see you critical of a shotchucker shooting his team out of a game...becuase people with the mindset you have?

You are the reason shot chuckers chuck...

You are the reason players fight and worry about who gets the most credit...


I'll be keeping an eye out for your double standard...better not say an unkind word about AI...or you will be owned.

Lucky for Horry he gets to play with real HOFers to help them out.

Lucky for HOF'ers he gets to play with them, or they wouldn't have as many championships..


But what do you care...in your world players should be playing for MVP's, credit, and who is getting the most shots...it's what's important to you, it's wh at you care about.

Tell you what - let's imagine that you and Mike D'Antoni are the owner/GM/head coach of an NBA franchise - one franchise for each of you. The best player on your franchise will be Robert Horry and the best player on Mike D'Antoni's franchise will be Patrick Ewing. Despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of whott's brains versus D'Antoni's, despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of Horry's clutchness versus Ewing's chokiness, your team will win 30 games a year at their best. D'Antoni's team will average 48-50 wins a year and get into the second round of the playoffs a few times.

And you know what? A team built around Robert Horry will produce at least as many championships as one built around Patrick Ewing...


Fact.

Is mediocrity your point?


I think it is...I think in fact you are saying a mediocre superstar is better than a HOF role player...and you are sickeningly wrong on that.

So it really doesn't matter...what can be proven is that a team on which Robert Horry plays a supporting role can and did win a championship, and one on which Ewing does...didn't.

You know, if anyone else climbs into the literal closet, you'd be the first to call them out. Now you're pinning your argument to a literal definition? It's unworthy of you.

Becuase in this case I was saying Horry's team because of the literal definition...or whatever the .

Yes, I can say that for certain. Or did Tim Duncan not lead his team to championships in 1999 and 2003?

I didn't ask you for proof that teams that won championships without Horry could have done so...I asked you for proof teams that did win championships with him could have done so without him...

And that you cannot prove.


Incidentally...Duncan was pretty injured in 05...he didn't carrry that team all year lond.





Going through whottt's HOFer Robert Horry twice in the process to do it?[/QUOTE]


Ironically enough...at least one of those championships swung on an Horry missed shot...


Ironically enough...if the Lakers had kept Horry they probably win the 04 le...because Horry doesn't get hurt during the Finals...

Ironically enough...Horry has twice been replaced by HOFer team carrying typles...like Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley, and the end result of his replacement has been...they were worst teams for it and didn't win championships.


Team carriers indeed...HOFers indeed....role players...indeed.





May you own a factory without workers...then maybe you'll get it.

[alamo50]

Getting pussy is classless?

No, that's priceless.
ing around behind your wife's back, that's classless.

[whottt]

Alright you win lets get the Hall of Fame Plaques for Danny Ainge, Gerald Henderson and Kurt Rambis ready.

Do they have 7 rings?

Are they the all time leader in playoff games?

Did they never miss the post season? The second round?

All time finals leaders in 3 pointers?

Single game finals record for steals?

Do they have a literal assload of clutch championship swining moments?

Uh no...no they don't.




You lack of an inability to discern the differences between Robert Horry and Danny Ainge is not an insight...it's not a positive, it's a negative.


Does Danny Ainge throw a towel in Robert Horry's face?


Nay...he does not...Robert Horry throws a towel in Danny Ainge's face...and yes, that's a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings.

Seriously lets just move on.

I don't want to move on...I want to argue.

You feel that Horry is a hall of famer, I don't.

Yes...and your opinion is a wrong one and mine is not...


It's not a case of two equal yet differing opinions...


It's a case of one person saying it's not stupid to jump in front of a semitruck(this would be you)...


And one person saying it is(this would be me)...

You and I own probably 50% of the posts in this thread and it's pointless,

Um...a forum wouldn't be much of a forum without posts...it's kind of the entire purpose of them...as are these types of discussions.

Game before stats...game before stats, know it, learn it, live it.

neither of us is going to change our minds.

You mind will change...in fact it already has, you just don't know it yet...but you will, the next time you are arguing with a stupid newbie who doesn't get the contributions non-hyped up Superstars make to teams...you'll get some of it then, even if not all. And hopefully...by the time the guy has done it multiple times for your team, you'll get all of it.

[ClingingMars]

It hurt to read that. I always liked Kareem, and while technically you can't really call that an insult...ugh. It just has that feeling.

- Mars

[slowchild25]

Does Danny Ainge throw a towel in Robert Horry's face?


Nay...he does not...Robert Horry throws a towel in Danny Ainge's face...and yes, that's a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings.

Your right that is a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings. If he doesn't act like a he doesn't get traded to the Lakers and ride Shaq and Kobe's coattails.

Um...a forum wouldn't be much of a forum without posts...it's kind of the entire purpose of them...as are these types of discussions.

True but when it's just the same two people saying the same things over and over it's just pointless and lame.

Game before stats...game before stats, know it, learn it, live it.

You mind will change...in fact it already has, you just don't know it yet...but you will, the next time you are arguing with a stupid newbie who doesn't get the contributions non-hyped up Superstars make to teams...you'll get some of it then, even if not all. And hopefully...by the time the guy has done it multiple times for your team, you'll get all of it.

I've already said it multiple time, I like Horry's game I get his contributions. Does any body game plan to stop Horry?

"If I hit it we win, if I miss y'all are going to blame the stars for losing the game anyway," Horry told the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon. "There's no pressure on me."

Horry's never had the pressure to carry a team and be the man. He just picks his spots and contributes. Role players are important to have on every team but it is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame even if you are a very very good role player.

[GSH]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.

We didn't need him. The toilets in the practice facility are already clean enough.

[ecksodia]

Generalizing former lakers as classless..?

Indeed the comments come off as being bitter. I'm not one to speculate, but...

[Pero]

So I attribute that one to Vlade Divac not understanding what he needed to do.

That's funny, I attribute that one to the ref screw up at half-time.

[whottt]

Your right that is a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings. If he doesn't act like a he doesn't get traded to the Lakers and ride Shaq and Kobe's coattails.

That's exactly right....


It's called intelligence...and it's a huge reason why he has 7 rings...on the court, and in the offseason.


And BTW, how many championships did Shaq and Kobe win without Horry...you know, when they replaced him with that Malone guy?

True but when it's just the same two people saying the same things over and over it's just pointless and lame.

I'm not saying the same things over and over again...you are.

I've already said it multiple time, I like Horry's game I get his contributions.

That's not good enough!

Does any body game plan to stop Horry?

At the 3 point line? I guran ingtee you they do.

"If I hit it we win, if I miss y'all are going to blame the stars for losing the game anyway," Horry told the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon. "There's no pressure on me."

Horry's never had the pressure to carry a team and be the man.

Bull ...he's had the pressure to hit shots.


There are guys in the HOF that couldn't carry teams worth a ....Horry is no different than they are, except for the fact that he scored fewer points and one a of a lot more rings.

And he's always had defensive expectations.

He just picks his spots and contributes.

Which is frequently when his Superstars are losing their nerve...

Role players are important to have on every team but it is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame even if you are a very very good role player.

Link?

I want you to show me the line where it says role players can't and don't belong in the hall...


Role player is a fun word anyway...


John Stockton? He was a role player...he passed...he's not in the HOF for his scoring and rebounding.

Michael Jordan? He was a role player...he scored, he's not in the HOF for his rebounding and passing.





What's your next great take...Pitchers shouldn't be in the MLB HOF because they don't hit? All they do is that one thing...pitch...that's role playing.



Stupid argument...

[SRJ]

And I'd say that's what Karrem was on his last 5 championships...

The same Kareem that won the Finals MVP award in 1985?

Do you have proof Robert Horry isn't a ratings draw?

It's hard to prove because he's always playing with players fans want to see.

Robert Horry was replaced with Charles Barkley once...it was a bad trade.

Yep...the Suns sure won lots of rings after that trade.

No...the mission statement comes first, which is why I posted it first...and there is a moments criteria...it's that it has to be a moment.

So everyone who had a moment belongs? Great! You've just put in a slew of players who don't belong, not just Robert Horry. Gerald Henderson, Rex Chapman, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Garfield Heard, come on down! You're in the HOF!

Another note on "the desires of children": Larry Bird said that when he was a kid playing with his cousin, they'd take turns being Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Magic Johnson said that down at his playground, everyone wanted to be Earl The Pearl. I wonder why? Could it be because Pearl, Russell, and Chamberlain were real HOFers and kids identify with them, not role players?

Seriously...I better never see you critical of a shotchucker shooting his team out of a game...becuase people with the mindset you have?

You are the reason shot chuckers chuck...

You are the reason players fight and worry about who gets the most credit...


I'll be keeping an eye out for your double standard...better not say an unkind word about AI...or you will be owned.

As usual, whottt makes up stuff people don't say. But about Allen Iverson - do you think Robert Horry could have pushed that 2001 76er team into the NBA Finals? I don't.

But what do you care...in your world players should be playing for MVP's, credit, and who is getting the most shots...it's what's important to you, it's wh at you care about.

What's most important to me, in HOF discussions, is which players have the most to do with winning. Real HOFers tend to produce a lot of statistics because they are relied upon. They don't get FGAs because the feel like it (on the whole - some do chuck excessively, and I don't care for it) - they get FGAs because they give their teams the best chance to score. Robert Horry is the exemplar of what we call a role player - not good enough to carry a team, but he does his job better than anyone else did that particular job.

I would have no problem with Robert Horry being inducted into a "Role Player's Wing" of the HOF.

Ironically enough...Horry has twice been replaced by HOFer team carrying typles...like Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley, and the end result of his replacement has been...they were worst teams for it and didn't win championships.

Hmmmm...

In Phoenix, Barkley made a trip to the NBA Finals in four seasons. Horry didn't last a season there. Phoenix certainly hasn't been back to the Finals since Barkley left.

As for Malone...

2003 LA Lakers 50-32, lost in second round to San Antonio
2004 LA Lakers 56-26, lost in NBA Finals to Detroit

The Lakers had Horry in 2003 and lost to San Antonio. The Lakers had Malone in 2004 and beat San Antonio - who had Robert Horry.

[whottt]

Go ahead...run away, give up...embrace your inner Maravich.

[whottt]

The same Kareem that won the Finals MVP award in 1985?

I don't know...is this the same Finals MVP that Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have one of and LeBron, Kobe and Garnett have none of?


You tell me.

It's hard to prove because he's always playing with players fans want to see.

That's because A. Those guys want him on their teams and B. He wants to be on those teams.

Yep...the Suns sure won lots of rings after that trade.

They won as many as the Rockets...and less than the Lakers.

So everyone who had a moment belongs? Great! You've just put in a slew of players who don't belong, not just Robert Horry. Gerald Henderson, Rex Chapman, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Garfield Heard, come on down! You're in the HOF!

I see...and how many of those players have as many as Horry does?

Another note on "the desires of children": Larry Bird said that when he was a kid playing with his cousin, they'd take turns being Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Magic Johnson said that down at his playground, everyone wanted to be Earl The Pearl. I wonder why? Could it be because Pearl, Russell, and Chamberlain were real HOFers and kids identify with them, not role players?

Is it Horry's fault he was born too late to be idolized by Bird and Magic?

As usual, whottt makes up stuff people don't say. But about Allen Iverson - do you think Robert Horry could have pushed that 2001 76er team into the NBA Finals? I don't.

So why doesn't' AI do it every year?

And I think Robert Horry could have bailed Shaq and Kobe's ass out in that series in one particularly memorable game...in fact I think he did so.

What's most important to me, in HOF discussions, is which players have the most to do with winning. Real HOFers tend to produce a lot of statistics because they are relied upon.

Any one can produce statistics if they are the one with the ball.

They don't get FGAs because the feel like it (on the whole - some do chuck excessively, and I don't care for it) - they get FGAs because they give their teams the best chance to score. Robert Horry is the exemplar of what we call a role player - not good enough to carry a team, but he does his job better than anyone else did that particular job.

In fact...Robert Horry was traded from the Rockets because he wouldn't shoot more...not because he couldn't. Perhaps he knew something they didn't...

I think you fail to see the point...that Charles Barkley was traded for him.

I would have no problem with Robert Horry being inducted into a "Role Player's Wing" of the HOF.

I would...

Hmmmm...

In Phoenix, Barkley made a trip to the NBA Finals in four seasons. Horry didn't last a season there. Phoenix certainly hasn't been back to the Finals since Barkley left.

Horry didn't last a season there becuase he didn't want to be there. Not because they didn't want him there.

As for Malone...

2003 LA Lakers 50-32, lost in second round to San Antonio
2004 LA Lakers 56-26, lost in NBA Finals to Detroit

Yeah...I guess Robert Horry was a lot more important than you realize...since hw was hurt in 2003. Imagine...a role player being that important.

As for 2004...don't blame Horry, he wasn't the guy being doubled off of...


I guess since Tim Duncan was on that team...Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan...I mean after all, he beat him.

The Lakers had Horry in 2003 and lost to San Antonio. The Lakers had Malone in 2004 and beat San Antonio - who had Robert Horry.

In 2003 Robert Horry was hurt, in 2004 the Spurs had bigger problems than Robert Horry...

I guess Horry wasn't the difference in 04...and neither were Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

[SRJ]

I don't know...is this the same Finals MVP that Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have one of and LeBron, Kobe and Garnett have none of?

The answer to that seems pretty obvious to me, but if you want to play dumb when it suits you, have at it. Of course, that's the entire theme of this thread, but hey - I've got time to kill.

I see...and how many of those players have as many as Horry does?

No no no...you can't say that moments are important as though its the be-all end-all, then ask for more of them from certain players. I didn't see a "Five Moment Minimum" in that HOF mission statement.

Is it Horry's fault he was born too late to be idolized by Bird and Magic?

We already have a generation of players who grew up idolizing Shaq. Since Horry was in Shaq's draft class, it seems logical to me that some of them would have idolized Horry too. But then again, that would mean kids grew up wanting to sit on the bench, and most kids don't do that.

So why doesn't' AI do it every year?

Good question. Why doesn't HOF Robert Horry have fifteen rings?

And I think Robert Horry could have bailed Shaq and Kobe's ass out in that series in one particularly memorable game...in fact I think he did so.

Clutch play in a 4-1 series win? I guess Avery Johnson's shot in 99 was clutch.

Any one can produce statistics if they are the one with the ball.

Someone tell Jeff Foster and Sean Marks that they can be All-Stars.

Horry didn't last a season there becuase he didn't want to be there. Not because they didn't want him there.

Boy, that's having a pro's at ude. Who's he, Steve Francis?

Yeah...I guess Robert Horry was a lot more important than you realize...since hw was hurt in 2003. Imagine...a role player being that important.

If Robert Horry was hurt in 2003, who missed that wide open shot in game five? And if that was Robert Horry, how did he miss it? That was HOFer Robert Horry missing his signature shot!

As for 2004...don't blame Horry, he wasn't the guy being doubled off of...

That's the beauty of being a role player - the blame isn't yours when things don't go well. Horry said so in that quote to Mike Wilbon, to which you called bull ; why would you call bull on something HOFer Robert Horry said?

[whottt]

I can't tell a HOF player without HOF stats, and I can't tell one proudly