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That was before he started winning les though. I write off pretty much every players first playoff appearance. Gotta cut them all a little slack.
Hey, just to go back to my original point, to draw parallels, the Mavs were not overwhelming consensus favorites to beat the Heat despite having HCA and a better regular season record. The Heat definitely had more veteran experience than Dallas, and just like the Hornets, the Mavericks went up 2-0 after two great performances at home. Being down 0-2 is a strategically perilous position to be in.
That was before he started winning les though. I write off pretty much every players first playoff appearance. Gotta cut them all a little slack.
yup.sarcasm man
unless you just double sarcasm tricked me
then what? If they took a definite slap in the face from the mayor of Dallas and used that to fuel them to play harder, then well, it worked. They're champs and the Mavericks aren't.
not to mention the fact that the Mavs players probably had that parade route memorized and were working on celebration speeches, judging by the way they played in the 4th quarter of game 3 and then game 4.
the 2-3-2 finals format didnt help either....the NHL still does 2-2-1-1-1 in the finals, so should the NBA
He did what true superstars did. If your shot isn't falling, get to the line and find ways to make plays, whether for yourself, or for others. And when he needed to, he made all kinds of big plays at huge times in that series. keep in mind its hard to do that consistently though when you are always getting triple teamed and your teammates are airballing wide open shots. see Jordan (GOAT and most clutch player ever) in his early series' against the Bad Boys Pistons, when he faced the exact same problems and defensive fronts as Lebron.
My point is that the parade route thing had no effect on the Heat whatsoever. There's no team out there that said "Wait, the city of Dallas is planning a parade? Well, now we're motivated to win a championship." It's just something to talk about and rub noses in after the fact. The Hornets didn't need any more motivation upon learning the Mavericks wanted them instead of the Lakers, it's just an opportunity for post-mortem trashtalking, as in "Oh, so you wanted to play us, how did that work out for you?"
If bulletin board material didn't work, the term "bulletin board material" wouldn't exist. Not saying it's the only motivating factor, or that it works all the time, but obviously feeling disrespected and working harder to shove it back in their face has worked enough in the past that every coach will try using bulletin board material whenever they can.
I think the Mavs were the favorites, maybe not overwhelming favorites, but still solid favorites. And, to me, the Hornets weren't the favorites at all.
Shaq was viewed as older and starting to decline and the rest of that Heat team that were veterans were also viewed as over-the-hill, like GP and Alonzo.
And, again, the Hornets and Spurs both won 56 games in the regular season. In 2006, the Mavericks won 60 and the Heat won 52. The Mavs were definitely viewed as the better team.
What also adds to the "choke" perception of the 2006 Mavs is the fact that they had game 3. They were up pretty big in the second half of game 3 in Miami and then that's when the series turned around. They didn't win another game.
The Hornets didn't lose four straight games to the Spurs. They won game 5 at home and in a convincing manner. The Mavs folded after losing game 3 and never recovered.
Teams choke, Spurs did in 2004, thankfully that doesn't happen again and again though.
Plenty of people picked the Hornets. The Spurs were not overwhelming consensus faves. The Heat weren't either, but both the Mavs and Hornets blew 2-0 leads and lacked poise the rest of the series.
Alonzo was terrific in that series, and GP played well too.Shaq was viewed as older and starting to decline and the rest of that Heat team that were veterans were also viewed as over-the-hill, like GP and Alonzo.
I think it's been well-established by now that regular season W-L records are not as meaningful or give us as much insight as previously thought. Boston had by far the best W-L record of all teams remaining, and IMO they're the worst team left.And, again, the Hornets and Spurs both won 56 games in the regular season. In 2006, the Mavericks won 60 and the Heat won 52. The Mavs were definitely viewed as the better team.
No, but they did lose four out of five. My real point in starting this thread is that I think the "choke" term is thrown around way too casually. It's almost pretty much become synonymous with "lose." However, if we can agree that "choking" is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, then the Mavs and Hornets both did that by blowing a 2-0 lead when they were in the drivers' seat.The Hornets didn't lose four straight games to the Spurs. They won game 5 at home and in a convincing manner. The Mavs folded after losing game 3 and never recovered.
Some people may have though the Hornets had a chance. A lot of people started to think it was possible after they won the first two games. Most people didn't think the Hornets were going to beat the Spurs when the series began, and definitely not when the playoffs started. A lot of people thought the Hornets weren't going to make it past Dallas in the first round.
Alonzo average 11 minutes a game in the 2006 Finals.Alonzo was terrific in that series, and GP played well too.
Gary Payton shot 37% from the field, 14% from the three point line in the 2006 Finals. Antoine Walker averaged more assists than GP in that series.
That has been most established because of the 2006-07 Dallas Mavericks.I think it's been well-established by now that regular season W-L records are not as meaningful or give us as much insight as previously thought. Boston had by far the best W-L record of all teams remaining, and IMO they're the worst team left.
The Mavericks were still viewed as the better team in 2005-06, and in the 2006 NBA Finals.
Losing four in a row and losing two then having the poise to win game 5 and then losing game 6 and then losing game 7 that comes down to the final minute against the defending champs are two different things.No, but they did lose four out of five. My real point in starting this thread is that I think the "choke" term is thrown around way too casually. It's almost pretty much become synonymous with "lose." However, if we can agree that "choking" is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, then the Mavs and Hornets both did that by blowing a 2-0 lead when they were in the drivers' seat.
The Hornets showed poise in game 5. They showed poise in getting back in game 7 in the fourth quarter. The Mavericks didn't show poise, and they were more experienced than this year's Hornets team.
The two series played out differently. The Mavericks were up 2-0 and had a big lead in game 3 on the road in the second half. That's when they choked on it. The Hornets were never really in a position to beat the Spurs in San Antonio. And, they lost in game 7 in the final minute after being down to the better tested, more experienced team.
If you want to label both as "chokes," that's fine. But, they aren't the two series are not similar beyond the fact that they both started out 2-0.
The Hornets didn't choke...they weren't the favorites in the series. They went up 2-0 but that's only on some bull shots and calls at home..the Spurs took 4 of the next 5...they were expected to win the series.
Jason Kidd was hurt for that series too... it was all about Kevin Johnson.
In support of Jamstone, my personal takes on the 2 series went like this. Whne the series started,I thought that the Mavs of 06 could have spotted Miami a 2 game lead, and still won that series... Whereas, I only started worrying about NO, when they had a 2 game lead after 2 blowouts. Even then, I thought the Spurs could come back... In other words, I thought that both the Mavs and the Spurs had significant advantages in their series. The Hornets put up one of a fight, albeit aided by the Spurs not really playing up to their own standards. Whereas the Mavs played down to, and fell to, an inferior opponent...
TD > Jason Kidd
You obviously did not watch the series then.
Alonzo was much more effective and important for the Heat than you realize, and in many people's opinions (including mine) was the second most important player in that series. his energy, shot blocking, and physical play was huge. And Payton hit some big shots in that series as well.
Mavericks are chokers. Big difference between the two. Finals-Miami . Dallas up 2-0. Wade has 5 fouls and the heat are losing by 10 with 10 to go in game. Wade scores,scores and scores. Wade never fouls out. Mavericks lose 3 more in a row. Choke begins.
Mavericks win 67 games, lose in 1st round. Choke in full circle.
Mavs lose first round this year. Choke over, They suck.
Hornets are young, played hard, were injuried by Spews but continue to try. Not a choke job.
Makes me laugh. Hornets losing to Spews, its a small upset.
Last edited by jack sommerset; 05-20-2008 at 01:57 PM.
I watched the series. Just didn't memorize every play. Not saying Zo didn't have an impact. But, how big is the impact of a player that plays 11 minutes a game and isn't a scorer? He blocked a few shots, was inside presence. I get it. A role player can be "terrific" and still not be much of a difference.
Payton wasn't a major difference maker in that series either. Weren't Wade's free throws the difference?
Dallas and New Orleans didn't choke in '06 and '08....Miami and SA were the favorites to win those series.
Dallas got to the Finals on lucky jump shots.
New Orleans got to the 2nd round on flopping and lucky shots.
I'd be amazed if you could find one.
Mavs losing last year or the final two years ago was a choke job.
However, even if a team chokes, it doesn't mean that all his players are chokers.
To me, Dirk isn't a choker at all. It's really unfair to put this label on him.
Chokers are players like Peja or Josh Howard.
that my friend was classic
that , your team cheated to win, the Mavs were the better team, Mourning and Haslem were allowed to beat Dirk up and Dwyane Wade was allowed to go to the freethrow line 97 times. And people still say this series was fair?, that series, and the Miami Heat, and Stern for allowing some rigged like that go on.
it is what it is, hate on it thats all you can do.that , your team cheated to win, the Mavs were the better team, Mourning and Haslem were allowed to beat Dirk up and Dwyane Wade was allowed to go to the freethrow line 97 times. And people still say this series was fair?, that series, and the Miami Heat, and Stern for allowing some rigged like that go on.
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