Real 9-11 Research

[Don Quixote]

Umm ... no.

Paleontology is by its nature a science that is unable to directly observe and repeat its findings in a laboratory. It's not possible for there to be any eyewitnesses, as there were most likely no human witnesses to living dinosaurs. The same goes for almost all of the study of history. No, there are no longer any eyewitnesses available for the Pelopenesian war, the Resurrection, or the Battle of Tours. Sorry. We rely on historical do ents to supply our information. But we're not historical skeptics, either -- we generally trust the writings of Tacitus, Livy, Paul, unless there is good reason not to.

Second, with a double-homicide case such as OJ, there is only one person alive who can tell with absolute certainty (whatever that means) whether or not OJ killed his wife in cold blood, and that's the murderer. Since he's not talking, we have to rely on forensics.

And third, the jury is still out on whether RandomDude has a life. A strike against him is his apparent support of Obama. I guess he believes in change, and in the future. But I'll go out on a limb and say that he does, indeed, have a life.

9-11 is a different matter altogether because there are tons of survivors. Not only that, but practically all of the events have been preserved, I guess for eternity, on videotape or digital media. So there are tons of potential eyewitnesses, both to attest to alleged explosives being planted in the towers, and to how the bad guys killed 3000 of our countrymen. But no one's talking. Therefore, your counterexamples do not meet the same criteria, and so they fail.

[xrayzebra]

Well all I can say is that some folks are taking exception to all these
folks who say we did it to ourselves. AQ is pissed at Iran for saying
Israel did the deed and taking their thunder away from them. Someone needs to get this straighten out immediately. It is causing too much confusion.

BBC NEWS
Al-Qaeda accuses Iran of 9/11 lie

Al-Qaeda's deputy leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has blamed Iran for spreading the theory that Israel was behind the 11 September 2001 attacks.

In an audio tape posted on the internet, Zawahiri insisted al-Qaeda had carried out the attacks on the US.

He accused Iran, and its Hezbollah allies, of trying to discredit Osama Bin Laden's network.

Correspondents say the comments underline al-Qaeda's increasing public hostility towards Iran.

In a two-hour audiotape posted on an Islamist website, Osama Bin Laden's chief deputy responded to questions posted by al-Qaeda sympathisers.

In response to a question about persistent rumours in the Middle East that Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks, Zawahiri said the rumour had begun on the Hezbollah television station, Al-Manar.

"The purpose of this lie is clear - [to suggest] that there are no heroes among the Sunnis who can hurt America as no-one else did in history, he said.

"Iranian media snapped up this lie and repeated it."

Sunni fears

Zawahiri went on to criticise Iran for co-operating with the US in its 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, that helped to oust the Taleban.

"Iran's aim here is also clear - to cover up its involvement with America in invading the homes of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq," he said.

This is the second verbal attack on Iran, a predominantly Shia Muslim country.

Earlier this month, in an audiotape marking the fifth anniversary of the fall of Iraq's leader Saddam Hussein, the al-Qaeda deputy accused Iran of planning to annexe southern Iraq and the eastern part of the Arabian peninsula.

BBC security correspondent Rob Watson says such messages appear designed to play on Sunni fears throughout the region of growing Iranian influence, and to present al-Qaeda as the best bulwark against Tehran.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/7361414.stm

Published: 2008/04/22 17:04:39 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

[RandomGuy]

Umm ... no.

Paleontology is by its nature a science that is unable to directly observe and repeat its findings in a laboratory. It's not possible for there to be any eyewitnesses, as there were most likely no human witnesses to living dinosaurs. The same goes for almost all of the study of history. No, there are no longer any eyewitnesses available for the Pelopenesian war, the Resurrection, or the Battle of Tours. Sorry. We rely on historical do ents to supply our information. But we're not historical skeptics, either -- we generally trust the writings of Tacitus, Livy, Paul, unless there is good reason not to.

Second, with a double-homicide case such as OJ, there is only one person alive who can tell with absolute certainty (whatever that means) whether or not OJ killed his wife in cold blood, and that's the murderer. Since he's not talking, we have to rely on forensics.

And third, the jury is still out on whether RandomDude has a life. A strike against him is his apparent support of Obama. I guess he believes in change, and in the future. But I'll go out on a limb and say that he does, indeed, have a life.

9-11 is a different matter altogether because there are tons of survivors. Not only that, but practically all of the events have been preserved, I guess for eternity, on videotape or digital media. So there are tons of potential eyewitnesses, both to attest to alleged explosives being planted in the towers, and to how the bad guys killed 3000 of our countrymen. But no one's talking. Therefore, your counterexamples do not meet the same criteria, and so they fail.

Correct on all counts.

Jeez, it didn't take two dozen attempts to get a fair answer either.

[RandomGuy]

Well all I can say is that some folks are taking exception to all these
folks who say we did it to ourselves. AQ is pissed at Iran for saying
Israel did the deed and taking their thunder away from them. Someone needs to get this straighten out immediately. It is causing too much confusion.

BBC NEWS
Al-Qaeda accuses Iran of 9/11 lie

Al-Qaeda's deputy leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has blamed Iran for spreading the theory that Israel was behind the 11 September 2001 attacks.

In an audio tape posted on the internet, Zawahiri insisted al-Qaeda had carried out the attacks on the US.

He accused Iran, and its Hezbollah allies, of trying to discredit Osama Bin Laden's network.

Correspondents say the comments underline al-Qaeda's increasing public hostility towards Iran.

In a two-hour audiotape posted on an Islamist website, Osama Bin Laden's chief deputy responded to questions posted by al-Qaeda sympathisers.

In response to a question about persistent rumours in the Middle East that Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks, Zawahiri said the rumour had begun on the Hezbollah television station, Al-Manar.

"The purpose of this lie is clear - [to suggest] that there are no heroes among the Sunnis who can hurt America as no-one else did in history, he said.

"Iranian media snapped up this lie and repeated it."

Sunni fears

Zawahiri went on to criticise Iran for co-operating with the US in its 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, that helped to oust the Taleban.

"Iran's aim here is also clear - to cover up its involvement with America in invading the homes of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq," he said.

This is the second verbal attack on Iran, a predominantly Shia Muslim country.

Earlier this month, in an audiotape marking the fifth anniversary of the fall of Iraq's leader Saddam Hussein, the al-Qaeda deputy accused Iran of planning to annexe southern Iraq and the eastern part of the Arabian peninsula.

BBC security correspondent Rob Watson says such messages appear designed to play on Sunni fears throughout the region of growing Iranian influence, and to present al-Qaeda as the best bulwark against Tehran.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/7361414.stm

Published: 2008/04/22 17:04:39 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Yeah, I heard about that. Interesting bit, and could lead to some interesting stategic considerations.

[Galileo]

Listen to the Air Traffic Controller:

http://mp3.wtprn.com/Barrett/0804/20...e_Barrett2.mp3

[DarrinS]

Listen to the Air Traffic Controller:

http://mp3.wtprn.com/Barrett/0804/20...e_Barrett2.mp3

Had to stop listening after the whole "cell phones don't work in airplanes" bull .

[RandomGuy]

Listen to the Air Traffic Controller:

http://mp3.wtprn.com/Barrett/0804/20...e_Barrett2.mp3

9/11 Debunked: Cell phone calls weren't faked.



You f***ers aren't even trying very hard anymore.

Maybe you could watch this one and tell me where it is sloppy with the facts...

[RandomGuy]

(Begin EDIT)
FOR THOSE OF YOU READING THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME, SEE PAGES 3 AND 4 for the NIST FAQ that answers the biggest "truther" questions.(end EDIT)

Since the 9-11 CTers like to copy and paste ad inifinitum, let's see if we can get some good stuff here.

It might surprise you CTers but there is a whole cottage industry built up around your bull .

They don't sell T-shirts, mugs, or crappy videos.

http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...24912447824934

http://www.911mysteriesguide.com/

http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.pdf

Here is a gem: The 9-11 "truthers" in their own "like, words". Icky.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...66640147&hl=en

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

http://wtc.nist.gov/

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

http://www.911myths.com/

Best one out of all the lot so far:
http://www.debunking911.com/

Mike Walter talking about the plane hitting the pentagon, and how irritated he is with the 9-11 "truth" movement for lying about what he said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycPUDktZpCU

Link to a TON of debunking links:
http://www.debunking911.com/links.htm

Here ARE SOME REALLY PRECIOUS LINKS.

9-11 "truth" scholars turning on each other. You thought they were unstable and kooky when they talk about the government, wait until they start talking about each other.

http://www.911myths.com/html/911_infighting_links.html


A whole page of youtube debunking videos

A whole page of decent debunking links and one of the best ones so far.

Maybe that air traffic controller has read all of these links...

[RandomGuy]

Let the flaming begin.

Either the conspiracy theorists are right about a massive organized evil conspiracy, or they are wrong.

If they are right about 9-11 being planned by an evil government conspiracy willing and capable of killing thousand of their own citizens, they would be just as motivated to keep that fact a secret.

An easy method of doing this is to do a disinformation campaign. All it takes is one or two paid evil guys willing to lie, a computer and some time.

The best way to do such a disinformation campaign is, as the conspiracy theorists themselves point out in my previous post is as follows:

1. Think of the stupidest possible
2. Present it in such a blatantly false and easily debunked manner that anybody with any common sense at all would recognize it immediately as stupid bull
3. This would then lead normal pepole to then associate all the real conspiracy evidence with this obvious quackery to discredit the whole movement to expose the grand evil conspiracy

IF there is a grand evil conspiracy, THEN at least SOME of the conspiracy "evidence" has been manufactured to be obviously stupid to put people off the trail.

THEREFORE:
IF the evil conpiracy exists AND you say you believe all of the conspiracy "evidence/theories" you MUST either:

1) Be one of those paid disinformation agents, and be lying and evil

or

2) Be too stupid to not recognize the obviously fake stuff that has been planted by the paid disinformation agents.

There are no other possibilities.

I wonder if the air traffic controller believes in all of the conspiracy bull ?

[Galileo]

Had to stop listening after the whole "cell phones don't work in airplanes" bull .

The FBI says that no connected cell phone calls were made from the hijacked planes, dumbass.

[Agitator]

9/11 Debunked: Cell phone calls weren't faked.



You f***ers aren't even trying very hard anymore.

Maybe you could watch this one and tell me where it is sloppy with the facts...

Dude, you are wasting your time with these "f***ers". The have their theories and are sticking to them like some cheap voodoo doll good luck charm.

You can't change their minds, because they can no more give up that part of them than the guys in Africa could give up their good luck charms that protect them from the "penis thieves".

[RandomGuy]

The FBI says that no connected cell phone calls were made from the hijacked planes, dumbass.

That's what this video says too.



So why would the air traffic controller talk about "cell phone" calls when the "official account" doesn't say anything about cell phone calls?

Is it because the mental midget watched "Loose Change" and believed that the people behind Loose Change had any commitment to the truth?

[RandomGuy]

Bump. Cause I can.

[Don Quixote]

Yes you can.

Doesn't mean you ought to, though.

[RandomGuy]

Yes you can.

Doesn't mean you ought to, though.

I figure if we are going to talk about 9-11, it should all be done in one thread, as opposed to the bazillion threads which 9-11 conspiracy nuts always spam every forum they can.

At least this one starts with a list of debunking websites.

[RandomGuy]

Bump. Every three to four weeks or so.

Maybe there are some conspirabuffs in LA...

[ClingingMars]

65 pages of bull ? what a waste of bandwidth.

- Mars

[RandomGuy]

65 pages of bull ? what a waste of bandwidth.

- Mars

It isn't a waste.

The peddlers of the conspiracy bull suck the unsuspecting in with the occasional semi-reasonable ploy, and get them to believe stupid things.

It is little better than a destructive cult, and as such should be strongly countered to keep the gullible from falling for it.

This thread is a monument to how tenaciously the zealots of the "9-11 truth" movement cling to their bizarre beliefs in the face of science and reason.

Zealots like that should never go uncountered. Anything that shows people who might be tempted to beleive them just how insane they are is worthwhile.

[Don Quixote]

Not to bring my field into it again, but I find it necessarily to strongly counter those who make strange claims about the Bible (what it says, where it came from) and the church in general. This is because either the cults (e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses) or some book (e.g., da Vinci code) make some reasonable-appearing claims that suck in a lot of people. This is not a new phenomenon -- certain groups have done it since the beginning.

Anyway, RandomDude, you are at your best when taking on the 9-11 Truthers. You have done a fine job.

[ClingingMars]

even still, 65 pages devoted to one cult? come on man.

- Mars

[Don Quixote]

Some cults are persistent.

[RandomGuy]

even still, 65 pages devoted to one cult? come on man.

- Mars

(shrugs)

Better 65 pages in one thread than 3 pages in 30 threads.

Conspiracy theorists are very insistant about this . Remember, it is akin to a core belief system for them, and when you question those basic dogmatic beliefs, you get a lot of push back.

One of the things that drives the length of these threads is that for both sides it is something like the formal Japanese theater, Kabuki, with stock charactors, and repeating plot themes.

The conspiracy theorists, for their part, copy and paste endlessly from their favorite sites, making it easy for them to go on and on.

For my part, I have been arguing against them for about as long as they have attempted to pass this stupidity off as "truth", and I have just as many ready-made answers that debunk every single point they copy and paste here.

I have changed a few minds here and there, and that makes it worth my while. At this point it is very easy for me to keep up, and so it goes on, as long as these people seek converts, there should be people who are ready to stand and deliver a healthy dose of critical thinking to innoculate people against this stupidity.

I wish it were otherwise.

Given the weight of that day, and the importance of it for understanding our world, it is worth the effort to get at the best possible explanation.

[Don Quixote]

I am the same way with Jehovah's Witnesses. I know all their arguments. I contend with them, however, not to make them look stupid or feel bad, but because I genuinely care about them. I know what they really are -- people created in God's image, but lost and needing his grace.

Not exactly the same thing as Truthers, but then again, you can say JW's are the Truthers of the Christian world.

[longcall911]

The conspiracy theorists, for their part, copy and paste endlessly from their favorite sites, making it easy for them to go on and on.

Most are more interested in spewing than in uncovering truth. Besides, if you blame the US government you also get to sit on the sidelines claiming "there's nothing anyone can do to combat secret factions within our own government" rather than take a stand to help destroy the evil crap that flew those planes into our buildings.

/*tom*/

[Don Quixote]

Yes! This is a key psychological factor in conspiracy movements -- the satisfaction of having figured it all out, but not actually having to take the responsibility of doing anything about it, since we're powerless anyway. Great point.