Adande: “Torch Passes from Duncan to Ginobili”

[roycrikside]

against NO, manu was at 21.3 ppg but at 43.5 % (and with 1.5 ppg coming from FT after technical fouls or fouls at the end of the games when the opposite team had to foul). he had basically no one to defend and when he had to (Peja or peterson), he failed.

Tony was at 19.4 ppg at 48.6 % (44.4 % from 3pts line). he had to defend CP3 and was able to contain him.

Tim was bad on offense but as usual was great in defense and had 13 rpg.

so, if you didn't see that manu played poorly in these PO, probably because of his injuries and his poor way to deal with it, i can't do anything for you.

i really liked the few games when he was good and i know for sure that a manu at his best could be a lethal weapon for us, as he often was in RS. i will be the first to appreciate he he's able to keep his G3 level till the end of the PO.

but it wasn't the point of my post to bash manu. i just said this ing article was stupid, especially in these PO.

oh, and if you can judge me and what i think only by knowing my nationality, please stop answering my posts, it would be wasted time for us all two obvioulsy.

<<

First of all, you can't say he had nobody to defend. He defended whoever he was supposed to and except for the first two games against Peja, he did fine. It's not like the Hornets were isolating Peterson on him one-on-one because Manu is such a liability on defense.

Secondly I think saying that Tony "contained" Paul is revisionist history. Paul had a dominant series. We beat that team because we shut down everyone else. A lot of the time we had a big come over to contest a Paul lay-up after he blew by Tony and guess what happens then? Alley-oop to Chandler.

Finally, judging a player by shooting % is pretty foolish. Not all field goal attempts are the same. Manu took a lot of 3 pt attempts against the Hornets because of how they were playing defense. A guy who shoots 40% from 3 is like a guy shooting 60% from two. Do the math. I think it's pretty silly to expect Manu to shoot 50% plus when more than half of his attempts were threes.

You look like a total dumbass saying "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." The regular season is 82 games. He had a lot of good games, but he sprinkled a few clunkers in there as well, as all players do. It's the totality of it that shows what kind of a player somebody is, not any one individual game. For the playoffs overall Manu is avg. 19.1 points (compared to 19.5 in the RS), even with some of the bad games he's had, so I think he's been doing okay.

I wish Manu could be more consistent, but consistency means getting 20 every night, not 30. He's not Kobe. Whether you get 40 in two games by getting 20+20 or it's 10 + 30, it still = 40 in two games and 20 ppg. You have to accept with Manu it's going to be more of a 10/30 thing than a 20/20 thing like Timmy.

[lefty]

Adande : " Torch passes from my ass to my vagina trough my uterus "

[200 miles]

this team is powered by three
this team is led by only one, #21

btw, if there was a torch to be passed, it would be passed in a few years from Duncan to Tiago, just like from DRob to Duncan

[Fizzzar]

Pop said it best when he talked about the sensacionalism (sp?) in the american media.

[kace]

<<

First of all, you can't say he had nobody to defend. He defended whoever he was supposed to and except for the first two games against Peja, he did fine. It's not like the Hornets were isolating Peterson on him one-on-one because Manu is such a liability on defense.

i said manu was a liability in defense IN THESE PO. it's what i think, and i know he can be a very decent defender.

Secondly I think saying that Tony "contained" Paul is revisionist history. Paul had a dominant series. We beat that team because we shut down everyone else. A lot of the time we had a big come over to contest a Paul lay-up after he blew by Tony and guess what happens then? Alley-oop to Chandler.

i think if we all praise Bruce, our best defender and one of the best of the league, to "only" concede 26.3 ppg at 56 % to kobe, we could say that Tony wasn't so bad conceding Paul 23.7 ppg at 50 %, with "only" for him 10.7 apg for 2.3 TO (compared to 12 apg and 1.2 tpg he had against the mavs)(even if, in the two cases, for bruce and tony, it is also a team effort)

Finally, judging a player by shooting % is pretty foolish. Not all field goal attempts are the same. Manu took a lot of 3 pt attempts against the Hornets because of how they were playing defense. A guy who shoots 40% from 3 is like a guy shooting 60% from two. Do the math. I think it's pretty silly to expect Manu to shoot 50% plus when more than half of his attempts were threes.

Manu missed a lot of shots and made a lot of bad choices and TO till now in these PO. i didn't like it, i hope it will stop, but you can't deny the facts

You look like a total dumbass saying "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." The regular season is 82 games. He had a lot of good games, but he sprinkled a few clunkers in there as well, as all players do. It's the totality of it that shows what kind of a player somebody is, not any one individual game.

OK. so saying "i know for sure that a manu at his best could be a lethal weapon for us, as he often was in RS" is the same thing as "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." please, be serious.

I wish Manu could be more consistent, but consistency means getting 20 every night, not 30. He's not Kobe. Whether you get 40 in two games by getting 20+20 or it's 10 + 30, it still = 40 in two games and 20 ppg. You have to accept with Manu it's going to be more of a 10/30 thing than a 20/20 thing like Timmy.

i like manu as he is. but in these PO manu hadn't been himself most of the times.

but the real question is why do you want to lead me in a manu's bashing ? or in this ing stupid manu vs tony thing ?

i was just saying that this article saying manu was our main man, especially brought in these PO, was stupid. a lot of posters said the same. but you can disagree.

[Emanuel20]

Wow.. it's becoming painful to even ignore you!
Both of them have helped us be where were are today and none of them is liability to the team. THEY ARE ASSESTS to the team.


Assets (Timmy, Tony & MAnu) = Liability (Booner, JV, Damon) + Owners' Equity( Peter Holt & POP)

[kace]

Wow.. it's becoming painful to even ignore you!
Both of them have helped us be where were are today and none of them is liability to the team. THEY ARE ASSESTS to the team.


Assets (Timmy, Tony & MAnu) = Liability (Booner, JV, Damon) + Owners' Equity( Peter Holt & POP)

hey, i said manu was a liability in defense and in these PO till now. just as Finley.

i know what manu is to this team. 3 less trophies without him and definitely not any this year if he isn't at a good level. don't make me say things i didn't say.

[Solid D]

Not much mentioned about Duncan on the other half of the floor...the end of the floor where Russell was great. "Anchor" comes to mind, as does "intimidation" and "alteration".

Offensively, the Spurs only have 2 players who can create shots for themselves anywhere from the arc inward, when everything else shuts down. Parker and Ginobili. The Spurs need them both on offense to keep the 12-0 runs for opponents to a minimum.

Duncan can at least "anchor" the defense when nobody else can...so in that regard, Duncan stands alone as the Torch-Holder. I don't think he has passed the Torch yet.

[Brutalis]

Let 'em think what they will. The only consistent about the Sportswriters I've read, is they consistently don't know what they're talking about.

Amen

[Emanuel20]

hey, i said manu was a liability in defense and in these PO till now. just as Finley.

i know what manu is to this team. 3 less trophies without him and definitely not any this year if he isn't at a good level. don't make me say things i didn't say.

well according to this:

"manu is a great player, i love him and i hope he will maintain his level till the end of these PO. but in these PO, except 2 or 3 games, he was simply horrible. how could you say he's our main man when he basically did nothing to help us in these PO ? i mean in this regular season, maybe, but in these PO ?? where it's the most important ?? where was he ?"

I extracted that you are making Ginobili look like a liability to the team.
I am sorry if I got the wrong massage from your supercilious post

[DAF86]

Duncan is the best player in the world by far. 'Cause he's the only player in the world that doesn't need to score to be a dominant player in a basketball game.

[greens]

That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?

Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.

Ginobili is a great player and when he's at his rolling he's a top five player in the NBA but the Spurs are best when they don't depend on his production. Ginobili's one flaw as a player is his inconsistency and the Spurs would be in trouble if they need Ginobili to be great every game to win.

I do agree with Duncan that Ginobili's biggest value to the team is scoring when baskets become hard to get and the pressure is on. Ginobili is the ultimate x-factor.

Nice points. But the thing that I see most of the time is for some reason whenever Manu starts rolling, it seems to wake up all of his teammates. It energizes the entire team and the home crowd goes crazy. If you watch the Spurs players closely when Manu starts playing insanely good, you see they are much more pumped up, especially Timmy, who starts pumping his fists. There is just something unique about Manu that gives him the ability to suddenly make his teammates play better basketball.

Obviously, everything starts with Tim Duncan. He is the main man. However, from what I see, it just seems like because of the way that Manu plays, meaning his unique style, it just energizes the team a lot more when he is on. That's not to take anything away from Tim. I think all of his teammates, especially Tony and Manu, know that he is main guy on their team. Same with the fans, they appreciate what Timmy does.

[OldSilentHill]

Both are fundamental and Spurs will ne nothing without any of them.

Duncan is the solid and Manu the spirit.

[timvp]

Nice points. But the thing that I see most of the time is for some reason whenever Manu starts rolling, it seems to wake up all of his teammates. It energizes the entire team and the home crowd goes crazy. If you watch the Spurs players closely when Manu starts playing insanely good, you see they are much more pumped up, especially Timmy, who starts pumping his fists. There is just something unique about Manu that gives him the ability to suddenly make his teammates play better basketball.

Obviously, everything starts with Tim Duncan. He is the main man. However, from what I see, it just seems like because of the way that Manu plays, meaning his unique style, it just energizes the team a lot more when he is on. That's not to take anything away from Tim. I think all of his teammates, especially Tony and Manu, know that he is main guy on their team. Same with the fans, they appreciate what Timmy does.

While it's true that the Spurs are better when Ginobili is rolling, I don't think that has anything to do with Ginobili being more important than Duncan, as the article is stating. There are a lot of players in the league who make their teammates better when they are rolling. For example, in the three series the Spurs have played in the playoffs, you can say the same exact things about Leandro Barbosa, Peja Stojakovic and Lamar Odom. When those three guys are playing well, their teammates and crowd get more into the game and their team becomes a lot better. Does that mean that Nash, Paul and Kobe have passed the torch?

Besides, it's shortchanging Manu to make him out to be some sort of energy players. He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.

[Bob Lanier]

The Lakers should be more concerned about how Lamar Odom isn't finishing on those torch passes from Pau Gasol.

[greens]

While it's true that the Spurs are better when Ginobili is rolling, I don't think that has anything to do with Ginobili being more important than Duncan, as the article is stating. There are a lot of players in the league who make their teammates better when they are rolling. For example, in the three series the Spurs have played in the playoffs, you can say the same exact things about Leandro Barbosa, Peja Stojakovic and Lamar Odom. When those three guys are playing well, their teammates and crowd get more into the game and their team becomes a lot better. Does that mean that Nash, Paul and Kobe have passed the torch?

Besides, it's shortchanging Manu to make him out to be some sort of energy players. He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.

Oh, I'm not saying that Manu is only an energy guy, of course, he's a lot more. He's a key player to the team. He's just as important as Timmy and Tony. My main point is that even if you listen to the interviews from Tim and Tony, a lot of the time they talk about Manu bringing in the much needed energy and aggression. They feed off of him. Maybe it's because Manu is a very passionate guy, hence, when he's rolling, the whole place is going nuts.

I don't think the article touches on this point. But do you also recall the prior articles that state that the Spurs go as far as Manu goes, when it comes to this series?

Personally, I don't like when everyone puts so much pressure on just one player, saying stuff like the team and the series will go as far as a certain player goes. That's not entirely true. Teams win games, not one player. It's that group effort, both defensively and offensively, that wins games. Especially in Manu's case, when he's playing with a bad ankle and bad finger, it's like all these articles are centered around him. When he is playing bad, it's all about him not delivering, putting the blame on himself. When he's rolling, it's all about him rolling. We don't get too many articles about TP and Timmy in this series vs the Lakers. It's just strange.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

He's just as important as Timmy and Tony. My main point is that even if you listen to the interviews from Tim and Tony, a lot of the time they talk about Manu bringing in the much needed energy and aggression. They feed off of him. Maybe it's because Manu is a very passionate guy, hence, when he's rolling, the whole place is going nuts.

I don't think the article touches on this point. But do you also recall the prior articles that state that the Spurs go as far as Manu goes, when it comes to this series?

These articles are just fluff and filler. I can say before Manu joined the squad and emerged in 2005 as the talent he is, the team gained a new dimension, and I could see him being considered the Spurs emotional leader.

He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.

I would say so. In the Spurs locker room interview after game 3, Horry said if he had to make a list of all the all-time greats, teammates he's played with, Manu would be top 10 which is a very huge compliment, I was surprised he was so non-chalant about it.

[v2freak]

Is it just me or does Manu play well when Tim plays well? Tim always does a good job drawing attention/double teams and sealing off defenders, opening the lane up. Is it any coincidence that Tim and Manu's good games seemed almost coordinated during the 05 Finals? Good game 1, 2, 5, 6. Subpar games 3, 4. Amazing game 7

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Is it just me or does Manu play well when Tim plays well? Tim always does a good job drawing attention/double teams and sealing off defenders, opening the lane up. Is it any coincidence that Tim and Manu's good games seemed almost coordinated during the 05 Finals? Good game 1, 2, 5, 6. Subpar games 3, 4. Amazing game 7

Could be. They always seem to coincide. Even look at the stellar games of Manu in 2008 regular season, and Tim will have a solid 20 , 30 pt 10 + rebound game along side a Manu 40 point game or something which would be even considered above average games on Timmy's standards.

22 points and 20 rebounds ain't too shabby.

[whottt]

Spurs won't be winning les without Duncan or Manu...or Parker for that matter. It's stupid to single out one player as the guy that makes you win when it takes a team to win.

I don't care if you got the best player in history, he's not gonna win a le by himself. And given that, Duncan's ones of the few to win mutiple les with entirely different casts...he and Shaq are the first to do it in a while.

That's not true of Jordan...or Magic, or Bird.


I just don't get articles that say one guy is the key to winning a le...making the playoffs maybe, winning les? No way.


And even if torch is being passed it isn't going to last long...Manu is only like a year younger than Duncan and gets beat up a lot more often.


I hate articles by stupid journalists, that don't know the game, that don't even seem to know the age of the players.


It's like no one realizes Kobe's about to be 30 and shooting guard has the shortest shelf life of any position. You'd think the Lakers are all 22 or something listening to the media talk about their future...they always seem to leave out that part about the best player pushing 30.

[jackseven]

Duncan's numbers suggested he struggled a lot against the Hornets, but they doubled him like 90% of the time.

That's a pretty big copout. Duncan's #s mean he did struggle against the Hornets. NO actually let Chandler guard him one-on-one more than most teams single cover him. But even if they doubled him 90% of the time, how is that any different from what usually happens? There's nothing wrong with admitting Chandler had his number.

Adande must have gotten lazy and pulled up one of his drafts from the Hornets series. You don't write a torch passing article the game after someone puts up 20-20.

The most consistent of the big 3 is Duncan, but the way Parker, Manu, and Tim can seemlessly interchange as the team's MVP, I don't see the Spurs as anyone's team, but just a really good team where if one star isn't performing, the others usually fill in the void.

Duncan is usually pretty strong on defense and rebounding, but he has had several games where he didn't show up on the offensive end. Other times, he looks almost as unstoppable as his early years in the league.

Manu's defense has been pretty weak for the most part and some games he just doesn't have anything to give. Then, he goes to the extreme polar opposite and plays Jordanesque. With Manu you're just going to have to see if he's recharged and can play big minutes as the game goes on.

I thought Tony had put it all together, but again in this playoff run he has been invisible at times. But, like T&M, he can be spectacular for some games and make you think he's the best PG in the league.

It's a very unique team if you think about it, but it does help explain the flip-flopping because TT&M have such big variances in how they play in any given game. The media wants to go with one theme and then run with it so they don't know how to reconcile

"Tim is the best pf of all time."
"Parker is a top 3 pg in this league."
"GINOBILLLLIIII!"

when either/and TTM has a horrible game, disappears for a couple, or gets badly outplayed.

If it is still "Tim's team" then it has to be because of his defense and rebounding. Also, the definition of "Tim's team" would be significantly changed since his early years when if Tim ever slightly struggled the game was over.

I think it's more of a nostalgia thing for most fans as he layed the groundwork for the Spurs to become who they are. In the present, Duncan is the biggest overall contributor on the team, but the margin for making it his team is very slim when you consider

- Parker actually won finals MVP vs. Cavs
- when the Spurs need need crucial baskets, they look to Manu and Tony first
- Duncan struggled for almost an entire series in Rnd 2


If the torch passes on the Spurs, it's a game-to-game situation.

[HarlemHeat37]

you just explained it though..

of course the Spurs go to Manu and Parker in clutch time, the perimeter player is usually favored in that situation..the Celtics go to Pierce and Allen in clutch time, but neither guy is a bigger option than KG..Shaq was clearly the best option for LA, but they'll obviously go to Kobe in clutch time..

this article is bad, because of the REASONS the writer gave..those reasons don't mean Manu is the man, it means Manu is the x-factor..that's not what he meant, but that's what his reasons show me..if Duncan struggles, the Spurs are going to lose as well..

Duncan being double teamed is the main reason the Spurs beat NO though..Duncan struggled, nobody can deny that, but he was also the only one on the team being defended by a solid defender, and his double teams opened it up for Manu and the shooters, which is the main reason the Spurs won the series..

also, if Tim Duncan struggles offensively, he still affects the game in a dominant way..he's still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game..he QB's our offense, he anchors our defense, he's the leader..if Manu and Parker aren't shooting well, the rest of their game falls off tremendously, especially Manu, who starts making terrible decisions..

it's rare for a team in the West to win riding 1 guy..Kobe is the best, and the Lakers couldn't ride him to a le the last few years..Duncan needs help, and he has it..but don't forget, Tim already carried an average team to a le in 2003 and he won a le with different players in 1999..that's where his respect comes from..

[nikegirl]

you just explained it though..

of course the Spurs go to Manu and Parker in clutch time, the perimeter player is usually favored in that situation..the Celtics go to Pierce and Allen in clutch time, but neither guy is a bigger option than KG..Shaq was clearly the best option for LA, but they'll obviously go to Kobe in clutch time..

this article is bad, because of the REASONS the writer gave..those reasons don't mean Manu is the man, it means Manu is the x-factor..that's not what he meant, but that's what his reasons show me..if Duncan struggles, the Spurs are going to lose as well..

Duncan being double teamed is the main reason the Spurs beat NO though..Duncan struggled, nobody can deny that, but he was also the only one on the team being defended by a solid defender, and his double teams opened it up for Manu and the shooters, which is the main reason the Spurs won the series..

also, if Tim Duncan struggles offensively, he still affects the game in a dominant way..he's still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game..he QB's our offense, he anchors our defense, he's the leader..if Manu and Parker aren't shooting well, the rest of their game falls off tremendously, especially Manu, who starts making terrible decisions..

it's rare for a team in the West to win riding 1 guy..Kobe is the best, and the Lakers couldn't ride him to a le the last few years..Duncan needs help, and he has it..but don't forget, Tim already carried an average team to a le in 2003 and he won a le with different players in 1999..that's where his respect comes from..

I think you summed it up pretty well.

The team would never be in the position it's in if it wasn't for Tim mainly.

As one pointed out a page or so ago, the only irreplaceable piece of this puzzle is Tim.

[HarlemHeat37]

exactly..

NOBODY in the NBA can replace Duncan on this team..

Garnett is on Tim's level, but he doesn't play in the post often, which would make us a jump-shooting team..

Yao only plays half the season..

Dwight Howard doesn't know how to pass the ball effectively or lead a team yet, which would kill our entire system..

there isn't anybody in the NBA that can replace Duncan..

there are a number of players that can replace Ginobili..if you give us Kobe, we win a le every year..same with Dwyane Wade..same with McGrady..then you have A LOT of arguables left..

if you give us CP3 over Parker, or Deron over Parker, we win every le as well..

[ManuTastic]

Here's how it breaks down:
Tim is the engine. No Tim, no go.
Tony is the transmission. He puts the power on the road.
Manu? Manu is the turbo, baby!