Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45
  1. #1
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    I have heard a figure that as much as 25% of the US economy is somehow tied directly or indirectly to the automotive industry.

    While I don't know how much stock to put in that statistic, I do know that the automotive industry is very important to the US economy as a whole.

    One remark made during the Ohio Dem primary stays in my mind:

    "The decisions in Washington D.C. matter less to jobs in Ohio than the Decisions made in Detroit [by the big three auto makers]."

    Bits:

    We have Dow chemical raising prices by about 20%. Link
    Implications: Chemical industry products are used by EVERYBODY and every industry, including agriculture. This makes such a move highly inflationary.
    A year ago, automotive industry execs could see a contraction Link
    Implications: some of our nation's largest employers have been preparing for this for a few months, and we WILL see job cuts.
    Ford is set to cut fully 12% of its salaried workforce Link
    Implications: This is likely a first round of cuts, and the first symptom of a larger trend. Ford is also in better shape than the other two of the big three from what I have been reading.
    Current projections show a 8-10% drop in new car sales, from 16.2Million in 2007, to 15 million in 2008.Link
    Implications: credit bubble fallout hits other areas unrelated to housing, spreading the credit crunch like a disease.
    This is the ripple effect of the current credit crunch hitting at the same time that oil/energy prices do.

    Stagflation. Prices rise, but not people's ability to pay them.

    I was a bit pessimistic about the economy before, but was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

    This is that "shoe". Our economy will adjust, but it will be painful for a few years.

    Start cutting down your debt loads as fast as possible.
    Look at your monthly budget and spending habits for corners to cut.
    Build up a cash reserve.
    Take a good, honest look at your resume and job compe iveness.

  2. #2
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    yep, the Big 3 are and will be suffering horribly as the demand fo SUVs and other gas guzzlers (TX cowboys and their overpowered, tarted-up pickups?).

    As always, the Asians and Europeans have a fleet of fuel-efficient vehicles and technolgies to meet the high-mileage demand, since they've been for years taking the oil situation seriously, vs the jokers in USA.

    I think it was Ford that has already forecast losses through 2010.

    The knock-on effects will be horrendous, just like for the home construction industry.

    This is extreme on the high-end, but makes the US gaz guzzlers look like dinosaurs:

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...rld-record.php

  3. #3
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Ford has indeed recently cut it's earnings forecasts.

    I still think Ford has the best chance out of all the big three to come out on top of this one. They are a step or two ahead of GM and Chrysler.

  4. #4
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    Yep you all can thank all the environmentalist for all this crap. And
    you can really thank them some more when we start having brown
    outs in our electric energy needs. No drilling for oil or gas in our
    part of the world. No nuclear plants, no coal fired plants, windmills
    kill birds so they should be studied carefully, and wind doesn't blow all the time. And you cant store wind power. Damns need to be
    removed so rivers can flood naturally to preserve the (fill in the
    blank). And don't forget someone will find out solar energy, if and
    when it comes down in price, will harm something. Bet on it.

    And dear old butons blames the big three for building SUV and
    trucks, which is what the public wanted. Wonder why Toyota and
    several other Jap companies build full size pickups.

    Yep we need some more of that mass transit and light rail and
    other BS transportation methods. And it is really going to be fun
    "putting" you car on instead of "getting" into one.

    You cats make fun of this old guy, but I remember when you could
    buy gas at a reasonable cost, drill for oil and gas where you wanted
    and the big arguments was who got the royalties from the gulf.
    (Texas won). And you could sit you rear end down in a big soft
    seat, had a smooth ride and no road noise. Try to find one of these
    wonderful foreign made cars that can match that.

    You laugh. Well think about how they made water scarce in
    San Antonio with the stroke of a pen, about some fishes that were
    not even native to the springs and some kind of wild rice. How
    you can only water certain hours of the day, even when under their
    terms there is not shortage of water.

  5. #5
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    Don't forget the costs of food and other durable and non-durable goods all of which use petroleum based products either in their make or in transportation to market...

  6. #6
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
    My Team
    Detroit Pistons
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    10,571
    Yep you all can thank all the environmentalist for all this crap. And
    you can really thank them some more when we start having brown
    outs in our electric energy needs.

    ...

    you can only water certain hours of the day, even when under their
    terms there is not shortage of water.
    No offense, young man, but its your generation that ed everything up with that simplistic at ude and no eye toward the future.

    Thanks for leaving us with the bag. If my father were alive and all his hippie-do-nothing peers were too, I'd give it to him as well. You 50s-70s babies with your blind patriotism and loyal, subserviant re ation.

    Did you think the good times just never end? Seriously, I sometimes wonder who lives in a fantasy world. The guy slabbering on about how gas was cheap, country was #1 and college wasnt needed because the rollercoaster will never run out of steam or the doomsday dork and his picket sign declaring "The End is Near"?

  7. #7
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    No offense, young man, but its your generation that ed everything up with that simplistic at ude and no eye toward the future.

    Thanks for leaving us with the bag. If my father were alive and all his hippie-do-nothing peers were too, I'd give it to him as well. You 50s-70s babies with your blind patriotism and loyal, subserviant re ation.

    Did you think the good times just never end? Seriously, I sometimes wonder who lives in a fantasy world. The guy slabbering on about how gas was cheap, country was #1 and college wasnt needed because the rollercoaster will never run out of steam or the doomsday dork and his picket sign declaring "The End is Near"?
    You are talking out your rear end, because you brain knows
    better. It is the group I referenced who makes up
    crisis where none exist. They fabricate shortages where
    none exist. How. By simply limiting supply. Now
    be a good boy and take you bottle and crawl back into
    bed. That's a good son.

  8. #8
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    I remember when you could
    buy gas at a reasonable cost, drill for oil and gas where you wanted
    Just.
    Stop.
    There, Mr. Selective Memory.

    I am not old enough to remember this that happened before the environmental laws you hate so much were actually enforced, but I have read about them, but you can take the "let's go back to the good old days" and stick it where the sun don't shine.

    Since you seem to have erased what doesn't fit from your worldview from YOUR memory, and some of the youngin's haven't had a chance to read about some of the happy fun your generation left ME and mine with...

    Who can forget the fun days where RIVERS caught on fire:


    The pollution of our waterways became a national issue in June of 1969, the day that the Cuyahoga River, flowing through Cleveland, Ohio, on its way to Lake Erie, caught on fire because it was so polluted. Although this was not the first time that the Cuyahoga River had been in flames, the 1969 fire caught the attention of the nation and the fight began for increased water pollution controls, which eventually led to the Great Lakes Water Quality Act and Clean Water Act in the 1970s.
    Link

    ---------------------------------

    and then there are the Dioxins.

    Here is one of the most publicized, Love Canal.

    Quite simply, Love Canal is one of the most appalling environmental tragedies in American history.

    But that's not the most disturbing fact.

    What is worse is that it cannot be regarded as an isolated event. It could happen again--anywhere in this country--unless we move expeditiously to prevent it.

    It is a cruel irony that Love Canal was originally meant to be a dream community. That vision belonged to the man for whom the three-block tract of land on the eastern edge of Niagara Falls, New York, was named--William T. Love.

    Love felt that by digging a short canal between the upper and lower Niagara Rivers, power could be generated cheaply to fuel the industry and homes of his would-be model city.

    But despite considerable backing, Love's project was unable to endure the one-two punch of fluctuations in the economy and Nikola Tesla's discovery of how to economically transmit electricity over great distances by means of an alternating current.

    By 1910, the dream was shattered. All that was left to commemorate Love's hope was a partial ditch where construction of the canal had begun.

    In the 1920s the seeds of a genuine nightmare were planted. The canal was turned into a municipal and industrial chemical dumpsite.
    Landfills can of course be an environmentally acceptable method of hazardous waste disposal, assuming they are properly sited, managed, and regulated. Love Canal will always remain a perfect historical example of how not to run such an operation.

    In 1953, the Hooker Chemical Company, then the owners and operators of the property, covered the canal with earth and sold it to the city for one dollar.

    It was a bad buy.

    In the late '50s, about 100 homes and a school were built at the site. Perhaps it wasn't William T. Love's model city, but it was a solid, working-class community. For a while.
    ----------------------------------------

    Thanks for strip mining and all the lovely heavy metals...



    --------------------------------------
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 05-29-2008 at 10:26 AM. Reason: civility

  9. #9
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Here is exactly how unrestricted oil and gas extraction pollutes the areas around the drilling.

    Pathways and Sources of Contamination
    Oil and gas chemicals enter the environment via several pathways:
    Drilling
    Hydraulic Fracturing
    Waste Pits
    Spills
    Releases to Air
    THE DRILLING PROCESS

    Drilling involves the use of muds to keep the drill bit cool and lift the rock cuttings out of the well bore. Muds may be water-based, oil-based or synthetic. They typically contain bentonite clay (or a synthetic polymer subs ute), as well as other chemical additives that alter the mud properties (thickness, weight, bacteria proliferation, etc.).

    Releases of drilling muds and additives to the environment can occur at the well site (spills, leaks from drilling reserve and waste pits/tanks), or mud injected underground can move through formations and contaminate surface or groundwaters.

    Read about how PRESCO drilled a well and had the mud come to the surface in a spring 1/4 mile away.
    HYDRAULIC FRACTURING

    Hydraulic fracturing 'fracking' is a method of stimulating oil and gas wells. Typically, it involves pumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of fluids and sand into the oil or gas formation. At a certain point, the formation will crack open. Studies have found that anywhere between 25 and 82% of the fluids will return to the surface, but some chemicals are preferentially trapped in the formation. At the surface, the flowback fluids are held in pits or tanks prior to disposal. The sand is left in the formation to hold open the fractures, thus creating larger pathways for the hydrocarbons to flow to the well.

    According to data from the Environmental Protection Agency, fracking fluids may contain a number of chemicals that are hazardous to human health.

    There are numerous potential pathways for contamination of water and air by fracking fluids.

    The most direct connection is if fracking fluids are injected directly into rock formations that also serve as freshwater aquifers and underground sources of drinking water. According to EPA, there are coalbed methane formations that undergo hydraulic fracturing, but also serve as freshwater aquifers.
    Fracking chemicals have the potential to migrate, as liquids or gases, from leaky wellbores into adjacent groundwater aquifers. There is the possibility for migration may occur, as well, through vertical and horizontal fractures into groundwater or even to surface water.
    Even if the fracking chemicals, themselves, do not migrate into groundwater, the hydraulic fracturing operation may change the underground geology in such a way that new pathways are formed that allow hydrocarbons such as methane, and benzene, to migrate away from their original location. Fracturing, which causes mini-seismic events under ground, may also introduce more sediment into groundwater aquifers, changing the water quality temporarily, or possibly permanently.
    A final pathway for contamination is if fracking fluids are spilled onto the ground or into waterways. Spills may be of unused fracking chemicals, or used fracking fluids that flow back out of the well after it has been hydraulically fractures. Any volatile compounds in spilled fracking fluids may enter the air and be carried downwind.
    Read about how the Amos family's water well was contaminated after hydraulic fracturing occurred near their home.
    Read about a KERR McGEE fracking fluid spill that contaminated surface soils and entered an irrigation ditch.
    WASTE PITS AND TANKS

    A significant portion of the chemicals injected underground during drilling, hydraulic fracturing or well maintenance return to the surface, where they are stored, at least temporarily, in open pits or tanks. Produced water may also be stored in pits or tanks prior to permanent disposal (e.g., injection into a deep aquifer; discharge to streams). In some cases, produced water is left in open pits to evaporate.

    According to an Argonne National Laboratory white paper, produced water contains many organic and inorganic compounds that can lead to toxicity. Naturally occurring contaminants include salts, which can be toxic to plants at high concentrations; hydrocarbons from the oil- or gas-bearing formations; metals, which may be naturally present in the deep groundwater; and naturally occurring radioactive materials (NORM).

    A variety of treatment chemicals and additives may be present in produced water. Some of these chemicals can be lethal at levels as low as 0.1 parts per million.

    The treatment chemicals used for gas processing typically include dehydration chemicals, hydrogen sulfide-removal chemicals, and chemicals to inhibit hydrates. Well-stimulation chemicals that may be found in produced water from gas operations can include mineral acids, dense brines, and additives.
    For oil production, treatment chemicals are typically complex mixtures of various molecular compounds. These mixtures can include: corrosion inhibitors and oxygen scavengers to reduce equipment corrosion; scale inhibitors to limit mineral scale deposits; biocides to mitigate bacterial fouling; emulsion breakers and clarifiers to break water-in-oil emulsions and reverse breakers to break oil-in-water emulsions; coagulants, flocculants, and clarifiers to remove solids; and solvents to reduce paraffin deposits.
    In Colorado, not all pits are lined, presenting the potential for liquid wastes to seep into soil and groundwater. Both lined pits and steel tanks may also cause contamination through leaks and overflow. Find out more about pits.

    Another pathway for exposure to chemicals from waste pits is through volatilization of chemicals sitting in the pits. For example, benzene and other volatile (light) hydrocarbons that are dissolved in liquids will enter the air when the liquid is exposed to the atmosphere.

    Read about how fluids from MARALEX's drilling pit seeped through the earth and contaminated a landowner's drinking water well.
    SPILLS

    Spills and leaks of raw chemicals or oil and gas wastes may affect land, water and air. In Colorado, the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (COGCC) requires companies to report spills of fluids related to any unauthorized release of exploration and production (E&P) wastes that are 5 barrels or more in volume. In some cases, smaller spills are reported, e.g., if the spill enters surface or groundwater.

    In the four-year period between June 2002 and June 2006, there were approximately 924 spills of oil and gas chemicals and wastes. Spilled products included: crude oil, condensate, produced water, and "other" products. The other products included diesel fuel, glycol, amine, lubricating oil, hydraulic fracturing fluids, drilling muds, other chemicals, and natural gas leaks.

    Roughly estimated, 60% of the spills involved produced water; 34 % involved crude oil or condensate; and 12% involved spills of "other" substances. (Numbers add up to greater than 100% because some of the spills involved more than one type of fluid).


    Colorado oil and gas spills affecting water (click here for a larger version of the chart)
    Of the 924 oil and gas industry spills, 20% of them contaminated water: 14% of the spills affected groundwater; and 6% of all spills affected surface water.

    As the chart shows, a large percentage of spills recorded by the COGCC do find their way into groundwater or surface water.

    While some of the spills are accidents, acts of nature (e.g., lightning strikes) there are many spills that are preventable. For example, during the four-year period, Chevron had 57 incidents of produced water and two crude oil leaks caused by corroded pipes or fittings. It is likely that proper maintenance, pipeline integrity testing, and replacement of old equipment could have prevented many of these spills.

    Download an OGAP report on Colorado Oil and Gas Industry Spills (June 2002 - June 2006). We are continuining to analyse the COGCC's spill data, so the spills report will be updated from time to time.

    TOXIC AIR RELEASES

    Venting and fugitive gas emissions
    The primary component of natural gas is methane, which is odorless when it comes out of the gas well. At gas processing facilities, chemical odorants such as mercaptans are added to methane, so that consumers are able to smell it in the event of a gas leak. People living next to natural gas wells, however, will not smell any methane released to the atmosphere through venting or fugitive emissions (leaks).

    In addition to methane, natural gas typically contains other hydrocarbons such as ethane, propane, butane, and pentanes. Raw natural gas may also contain water vapor, hydrogen sulfide (H2S), carbon dioxide, helium, nitrogen, and other compounds.

    Almost all references to the odor of raw or wellhead natural gas state that it, like methane, is odorless. The Ohio Department of Natural Resources, however, advises landowners that one way to detect an abandoned oil or gas well on their property is if they smell "natural gas" odors coming from their tap water. So, in some cases, there may be a slight hydrocarbon odor associated with venting of natural gas.

    If the concentration of H2S in the gas is high enough, there may also be a "rotten egg" odor associated with the gas.

    Condensate fumes
    Some natural gas wells produce a semi-liquid condensate along with the gas. Condensates are hydrocarbons that are in a gaseous state within the reservoir (prior to production), but become liquid during the production process. Condensates are composed of hydrocarbons (typically those containing five or more carbon molecules), as well as aromatic hydrocarbons such as benzene, toluene, xylenes and ethylbenzene (BTEX).

    Condensates may give off a characteristic hydrocarbon or petroleum-type smell. BTEX give off a sweet, aromatic odor. Most people can smell benzene when it reaches levels of approximately 1.5 - 5 parts of benzene per million parts of air (ppm). The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set maximum exposure levels for workers at 1 ppm (over an 8-hour period) and 5 ppm (over a 15-minute period). At levels above 150 ppm some people may begin to experience serious and irreversible health effects.

    The vapors of benzene, toluene and xylenes are heavier than air and may ac ulate in low-lying areas.

    Odors from waste pits
    Prior to disposal, drilling wastes (muds and cements), hydraulic fracturing (fracking) fluids and produced water are often stored in earthen or metal pits that are open to the air. There are hundreds of different chemicals that may be used during drilling, fracking and workover procedures, including acids, biocides, surfactants, solvents, lubricants and others. The odors associated with the chemicals will vary, depending on the concentrations, volumes, and combinations of chemicals used.

    By-products from flaring
    The by-products from burning natural gas vary depending on the composition of the gas and/or condensate being burned. There may also be additional by-products formed if some of the chemicals used during the drilling or hydraulic fracturing process are converted to a gaseous form and are burned along with the natural gas.

    It is difficult to find information on the by-products of flaring specific to Colorado. The Ventura County Air Pollution Control District, in California, however, has estimated that the following air pollutants may be released from natural gas flares: benzene, formaldehyde, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs, including naphthalene), acetaldehyde, acrolein, propylene, toluene, xylenes, ethyl benzene and hexane.

    Glycol Dehydrator emissions
    If the gas wells use glycol dehydrators to remove water from the gas, you may be smelling some aromatic organic chemicals. Regeneration of the glycol solutions used for dehydrating natural gas can release significant quan ies of benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene, as well as a wide range of less toxic organics. As mentioned above, BTEX have a sweet chemical odor.

    Diesel fumes
    Drilling, completion and workover trucks, rigs and equipment such as pumps typically run off of diesel-powered or gasoline engines. The exhaust fumes from gasoline and diesel fuels can produce emissions that are noticeable to people living downwind.

    Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are found in exhaust from motor vehicles and other gasoline and diesel engines. A long list of other air pollutants, including BTEX, formaldehyde and metals are also contained in diesel fuel combustion products.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 05-29-2008 at 10:22 AM. Reason: removed sarcasm.

  10. #10
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    I say, yet again, the economic gains from unrestricted mining/drilling/polluting are paltry compared the economic loss of living with, or cleaning up the pollution.

    Unless you want kids playing in mining waste piles, you have to do something.

    Here are the 53 Superfund sites just in Texas that are so polluted they require cleanup:

    Texas Site Status Summaries
    (linky dinky doo)
    You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader, available as a free download, to view these files. See EPA's PDF page to learn more about PDF, and for a link to the free Acrobat Reader.

    1) Air Force Plant #4 (General Dynamics) (PDF, 4 pp, 109K)
    2) Alcoa/Lavaca Bay (PDF, 4 pp, 243K)
    3) Bandera Road Groundwater Plume (PDF, 5 pp, 653K)
    4) Bailey Waste Disposal (PDF, 5 pp, 422K)
    5) Bio-Ecology Systems, Inc. (PDF, 3 pp, 61K)
    6) Brine Service Company (PDF, 5 pp, 71K)
    7) Brio Refining, Inc. (PDF, 2 pp, 75K)
    8) City of Perryton Water Well #2 (PDF, 3 pp, 95K)
    9) Conroe Creosote (PDF, 3 pp, 202K)
    10) Crystal Chemical Co. (PDF, 5 pp, 99K)
    11) Crystal City Airport (PDF, 4 pp, 82K)
    12) Dixie Oil Processors, Inc. (PDF, 2 pp, 75K)
    13) East 67th Street Ground Water Plume (PDF, 2 pp, 186K)
    14) Falcon Refinery (PDF, 5 pp, 248K)
    15) French, Ltd. (PDF, 5 pp, 93K)
    16) Garland Creosoting (PDF, 4 pp, 69K)
    17) Geneva Industries/Fuhrmann Energy (PDF, 3 pp, 120K)
    18) Gulfco Marine Maintenance (PDF, 3 pp, 75K)
    19) Hart Creosoting Company (PDF, 6 pp, 131K)
    20) Highlands Acid Pit (PDF, 5 pp, 110K)
    21) Jasper Creosoting Company (PDF, 6 pp, 434K)
    22) Jones Road Ground Water Plume (PDF, 3 pp, 279K)
    23) Koppers Co., Inc. (Texarkana Plant) (PDF, 6 pp, 64K)
    24) Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant (PDF, 4 pp, 20K)
    25) Longhorn Army Ammunition Plant (PDF, 6 pp, 131K)
    26) Malone Services Company (PDF, 5 pp, 91K)
    27) Many Diversified Interests, Inc. (PDF, 10 pp, 230K)
    28) Midessa Ground Water Plume (PDF, 4 pp, 324K) (new)
    29) MOTCO, Inc. (PDF, 4 pp, 158K)
    30) North Cavalcade Street (PDF, 7 pp, 133K)
    31) Odessa Chromium #1 (PDF, 4 pp, 55K)
    32) Odessa Chromium #2 (PDF, 4 pp, 48K)
    33) Palmer Barge Line (PDF, 3 pp, 89K)
    34) Pantex Plant (USDOE) (PDF, 4 pp, 42K)
    35) Patrick Bayou (PDF, 3 pp, 73K)
    36) Pesses Chemical Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 65K)
    37) Petro-Chemical Systems, Inc. (Turtle Bayou) (PDF, 7 pp 89K)
    38) RSR Corp. (Murph Metals) (PDF, 3 pp, 89K)
    39) Rockwool Industries, Inc. (PDF, 5 pp, 115K)
    40) Sandy Beach Road (PDF, 2 pp, 98K)
    41) Sheridan Disposal Services (PDF, 3 pp, 158K)
    42) Sikes Disposal Pits (PDF, 4 pp, 184K)
    43) Sol Lynn/Industrial Transformers (PDF, 3 pp, 200K)
    44) South Cavalcade Street (PDF, 5 pp, 471K)
    45) Sprague Road (PDF, 3 pp, 221K)
    46) Star Lake Canal (PDF, 4 pp, 229K)
    47) State Marine of Port Arthur (PDF, 3 pp, 80K)
    48) State Road 114 Ground Water Plume (PDF, 3 pp, 238K)
    49) Stewco, Inc. (PDF, 3 pp, 77K)
    50) Tex-Tin Corporation (PDF, 3 pp, 72K)
    51) Texarkana Wood Preserving Co. (PDF, 5 pp, 74K)
    52) Triangle Chemical Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 157K)
    53) United Creosoting Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 228K)
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 05-29-2008 at 10:21 AM. Reason: removed sarcasm out of respect for Ray.

  11. #11
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Sorry, Ray, but this is YOUR fault.

    Don't blame us for maybe being a *little* leery of unrestricted drilling, refining, and mining.

    I can go on if you want me to, but you are decent enough to know I am right, even if you don't want to admit it.

  12. #12
    It's In The Numbers 1369's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Post Count
    5,138
    RG, concerning the "unregulated" mining and such, what's your take on the controls in place to date? Granted, the sins of the past (40+ years ago for most) still haunt us and will continue to do so (I've worked extensively at the #2 listed SF site you posted), but how do you see things now?

  13. #13
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    RG, concerning the "unregulated" mining and such, what's your take on the controls in place to date? Granted, the sins of the past (40+ years ago for most) still haunt us and will continue to do so (I've worked extensively at the #2 listed SF site you posted), but how do you see things now?
    The controls in place today are generally functioning well, up until the current administration.

    I look at it from an economic perspective.

    Strip mining and drilling carry costs. When pollution happens and is not paid for up front by the company doing the mining/drilling that is essentially stealing from the greater economy, as the costs of that pollution are foisted on the rest of us. The Superfund is an excellent example, but other costs like cancers in old mining towns, the collapse of areas like Love Canal, are also in there.

    If you want to do strip mining, that is fine by me. I am not against such things per se.

    BUT

    You WILL return the area to exactly the way it was before you ed it up, and I want absolutely NO long term pollution in the process.

    If this forces costs beyond what is economical to extract the material in the first place, that just means that society in general doesn't value that material enough to pay for the true costs of extracting that material in the first place.

    Pollution is cost shifting. It shifts costs away from the producers of pollution onto the rest of us. I would shift it back to the producers where it belongs, so that the ultimate costs of goods is paid for up front, and not 20+ years down the road.

  14. #14
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    How many of you "youngin's" are in Texas? Funny thing happened
    on the way to the "sludge pit". Super funds. Plumes. and such.
    I have lived here for most of my life and somehow I managed to live
    to a pretty good long life. And another funny thing happened. Most
    people live to a ripe old age. Much longer than my ancestors or yours lived. How come. All this damn pollution you speak of. Maybe we should have some more of that stuff. Keeps people living longer it seems. Oh, one more little thing. How bout the Universities and colleges that live off that pollution. Give me a break. Pollution, how come everyone wants to live here?
    You folks, as you say, drink all the cool-aid. Yeah oil pollutes but
    there are a hundred other things that I could name that do the
    same. Like water, like nature, like air. How about tanning factories.
    Recycling plants, you know those guys who clean up after dirty
    industries. Horse hockey. There is a price to pay for everything.
    You want pollution, go into a poor housekeepers house.

    You know I would bet that those that oppose me the most about
    oil are the same ones that hire an exterminator to spray there house
    to keep the bugs out. No way to prove it, but I would bet I am not
    wrong.

  15. #15
    Believe. Anti.Hero's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,588

    Start cutting down your debt loads as fast as possible.
    Look at your monthly budget and spending habits for corners to cut.
    Build up a cash reserve.
    Take a good, honest look at your resume and job compe iveness.
    Yep. You can't help but laugh at all of these fools who keep diving deeper and deeper into debt. It's like smoking. You know it will you up, why on Earth would anyone even consider doing it.

  16. #16
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    Don't forget the costs of food and other durable and non-durable goods all of which use petroleum based products either in their make or in transportation to market...
    This has a measure of truth to it, but not the implication people immediately think.

    I saw the numbers once computed at 8 MPG for an 18 wheeler. The added cost to goods when you calculate miles driven vs. payload is actually pretty small. Before someone uses this as an argument, please find the math.

    Let's just make a guess till otherwise seen:

    20,000 pounds of produce.

    2,000 miles to market

    Diesel price changes from $2.50 per gallon to $5.00 per gallon

    7 MPG.

    Do the math. Fuel cost changes from $714.29 to $1428.57. The per pound increase by $0.036... Yes, just over 3-1/2 cents per pound!

    Another insanity, where the people listen to the media hype. They would make us think that doubling of fuel prices does the same to food prices. It's an excuse the retailers use to jack up prices beyond reason.

    Sure, these numbers may not be real, but I am not going to take the time to find real costs. Besides, it varies by truck, driver habit, distance, and some loads are never full, or bulky rather than being able to fill near the maximum weight.

    Anyone game to find the real numbers for a real situation?

  17. #17
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Anyone game to find the real numbers for a real situation?
    There is a rather good economics paper on trucking here:

    At this pdf file, from a website called "mountain-plains.org", a non-profit organization dedicated to "the support of research and training concerning the transportation infrastructure and the movement of passengers and freight. The program aims to attract the nation's best talent to the study of transportation and to develop new strategies and concepts to effectively address transportation issues."

    Government tax dollars at work.


    The base case for a five-axle semi pulling a 48-foot van at 55 miles per hour results in miles per gallon of 6.15 loaded and 7.81 empty. This estimate was confirmed to be a good estimation of fuel economy by Ron Hesh of Wallwork
    Truck Sales. Ryder (1994) confirmed that not only is fuel efficiency weight sensitive, but aso speed sensitive. The estimation in the article is that for every mile per hour over 55, there is a 2 ercent loss in fuel efficiency. The spreadsheet model adjusts automatically for speed over 55 miles per hour.
    Given that the report was done in 1997, and that newer rigs are both a bit more fuel efficient, but driving a bit faster to offset this efficiency, I would guess the MPG factor above hasn't changed much.

    One has to remember that trucks must recoup ALL fuel costs, not just fuel costs incurred hauling loads, i.e. "deadhead" miles. This complicates the calculations somewhat.

    Further complicating the calculations is the fact that the above gas mileages are for non-refrigerated tractor-trailers. Milk and frozen products will probably be the most sensitive to fuel price increases.

  18. #18
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    http://www.mysmallbiz.com/pg/pub/ide...ils.php?id=359

    Also gives a rough breakout of expenses for independent trucking, although they don't back out fuel costs. I would guess that is part of Cost of Goods Sold (CGS), although it might easily be part of "other".

    Let's plug it in to a good case example:

    Profit margin: 22% of revenue.
    Initial fuel costs as a % of revenue, 7.8%

    Triple fuel costs, while holding revenue constant:
    22%-15.6%= 6.4%

    That is still profitable, right?

    Not exactly.

    Assume your revenues are about $300,000 per year.

    In the first scenario, your profit, i.e. your personal income, was $66,000 per year before self-employment taxes, or about $55,000 before income tax.

    Now take away $46,000 of pre-tax income, and you are left with a gross of $19,200 before self-employment, or around $16000 after SE taxes.

    Profitable?

    Yes.

    Economically feasible? No. You have gone from roughly 28 dollars per hour to just under $9/hour.

    The local burger joint offers that to start with a 12% raise after 3 months, and no uncertainty as to ultimate income.

    Given equal choices, you then get rid of your truck and flip burgers because you are economically better off.

  19. #19
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Another insanity, where the people listen to the media hype. They would make us think that doubling of fuel prices does the same to food prices. It's an excuse the retailers use to jack up prices beyond reason.
    Food prices are sensitive to fuel/oil prices in the following ways:

    Inputs like fertilizer, pesticides, and fuel for harvesting equipment.
    Transportation to wholesalers, then transportation to retailers.
    For produce and milk, you also have the issue of added fuel costs for refridgeration during the process.

    For processed foods, energy costs further creep into the equation, because it takes energy to can things, transform base grains into, say, breakfast cereals, make tomotoes into spaghetti sauce, etc.

    Farmers face increased input prices, they pass that along to wholesalers, who also are hit with increased input prices, then they turn around and pass the farmers+the wholesalers increases on to retailers, who now are having to add the farmers+wholesalers+retailer input prices.

    These kinds of economics are what will favor a lot of local food production. Those little farmers markets where you cut out all the middleman expenses, suddenly become MUCH more cost compe ive.

  20. #20
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Bump.

    Just 'cause it is more interesting than the "bash-a-candidate" crap on the front page.

  21. #21
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    Domestic automakers' sales plummet

    Wednesday, June 04, 2008 By Rick Haglund

    DETROIT -- Skyrocketing gasoline prices, a sluggish economy and a major shift away from the purchase of gas-guzzling trucks continued to hammer domestic automakers in May as their sales fell by double-digit margins from a year ago.

    General Motors Corp. reported Tuesday sales plunged 27.5 percent last month because of falling truck sales and several strikes that limited the availability of popular models such as the Chevrolet Malibu and Buick Enclave.

    Ford Motor Co.'s sales dropped 15.8 percent last month from May 2007 while Chrysler LLC's sales fell 25.4 percent.

    Toyota Motor Corp., which in recent years has expanded its lineup to include more full-size pickups and SUVs, reported its sales fell 4.3 percent.

    "It was a double whammy of a segment shift away from trucks to cars and a soft economy," said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates of Troy.

    But Honda Motor Co., posted a sales increase of 15.6 percent from a year ago. Honda reported May was its best sales month ever in the United States.

    The Honda Accord sedan outsold the Ford F-series pickup, which had been the best-selling vehicle in the United States for the past 31 years. Honda sold 43,728 Accords in May, while Ford sold 42,973 F-series trucks.

    "It was an interesting month -- really interesting," said Joe Serra, president of Grand Blanc-based Serra Automotive, which owns 22 dealerships, including 11 in Michigan.

    "Sales fluctuated from brand to brand. My Honda operations had record months."

    But Serra said sales at his Hummer dealership in Grand Blanc were hurt more by lack of availability of the midsize H3 SUV, caused by a strike at American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., than by a lack of demand for the gas-guzzling vehicle.

    "It has a unique look," he said. "There are people who have wants and needs in that segment."

    GM announced Tuesday it is considering selling off the Hummer brand because of what the automaker sees as permanently high gasoline prices.

    Nissan Motor Co. posted a sales jump of 8.4 percent from the month compared with May 2007.

    Across the industry, overall sales of cars and trucks fell 10.7 percent last month, according to Autodata Corp., of Woodcliff Lake, N.J. Truck sales fell 23.7 percent while car sales rose 2.4 percent as $4 a gallon gasoline shifted consumers to buy more fuel-efficient cars.

    But many consumers, worried about rising energy and food prices, aren't buying.

    Autodata said May sales ran at an annual rate of 14.3 cars and trucks, down by 2 million vehicles from the annualized sales rate in May 2007.

    "Obviously, consumers are feeling the pinch at the pump," said Mike DiGiovanni, GM's chief market analyst.

  22. #22
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Post Count
    1,343
    These kinds of economics are what will favor a lot of local food production. Those little farmers markets where you cut out all the middleman expenses, suddenly become MUCH more cost compe ive.
    My dad and I were talking about that just the other day. People will have to fundamentally change their diets if the price of oil keeps getting higher in the years to come. Less dining out, less (or no) crap-food at the mega grocery store, more basic, healthy, and local food.

    Which is how they should live anyway.

  23. #23
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    So it's the environmentalists that are causing all this.
    Yet, the only ones laughing all the way to the bank are Oil co. stockholders and their record profits.

    Give me a ing break.
    Last edited by ElNono; 06-10-2008 at 08:16 PM.

  24. #24
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Ford tells union more cuts needed as market slumps

    By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer
    1 hour, 38 minutes ago

    DETROIT - With the U.S. auto market worsening for Ford Motor Co. almost daily, managers told union officials Friday that the company will have to further reduce its factory work force in the coming months.

    The slumping U.S. economy has cut U.S. auto sales by 8 percent during the first five months of the year, but it's been a double hit on Ford, General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC as consumers shun their high-profit pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles for more fuel-efficient models as they cope with $4 per gallon gasoline.

    United Auto Workers union officials were told in a meeting that Ford needs to make additional cost cuts "so that we can make the vehicles in an efficient way that customers are buying," said Ford spokeswoman Anne Marie Gattari.

    At the meeting, attended by about 300 executives, plant managers and union officials from across the U.S., Ford reiterated previous statements that it would make buyout and early retirement offers at targeted factories as it tries to further pare its payroll.

    Gattari said Ford is still trying to determine which factories would get the offers, but prefers to use them over more dramatic steps such as closing factories.

    "We have a lot of cost-cutting elements that we can work on together," Gattari said. "We're looking at doing those kinds of things before we do anything more drastic that no one wants to do."

    Ford announced in May that it would cut production of trucks and SUVs, but increase factory output of cars and crossovers through additional shifts and overtime and the realignment of some of its manufacturing capacity. The company also said it plans to accelerate the North American introduction of some of its small cars from Europe and South America, although it didn't reveal which vehicles.

    Industry analysts have said Ford simply has too many factories making trucks for a market that even the automakers say has permanently shifted to vehicles that get better gas mileage. Many are operating with only one shift, which is inefficient, analysts have said.

    Also in May, Ford announced it will further cut its salaried work force.

    "We have to do the same thing in our manufacturing operation," Gattari said Friday.

    During the past three years, Ford has cut its hourly work force by about 40,000 in the U.S. and Canada, she said.

    Earlier this year, Ford had announced corporate-wide buyout and early retirement offers for U.S. hourly workers, but only 4,200 took the offers, about half of what the company wanted.

    Ford now is hoping more workers will take the buyouts.

    "We need the help of our local union leadership to help make that happen," Gattari said.

    The company has about 54,000 hourly workers represented by the United Auto Workers union.

    The market deterioration and possibility of plant closures could make workers rethink the offers.

    Ford says it will cut production and retool some factories to align itself with the rapidly changing consumer demand. Details of its plans are expected in July.

    The company announced May 22 that it was cutting North American production for the rest of this year and no longer expects to return to profitability by 2009. Ford sales fell 16 percent in May compared with the same month last year and were down 11 percent for the first five months of the year.

    Although Ford made $100 million in the first quarter, it lost $15.3 billion during the previous two years and had to mortgage its assets to stay afloat.

    Ford shares rose 22 cents, or 3.7 percent, to $6.22 in afternoon trading Friday.

  25. #25
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    "less (or no) crap-food"

    ... the cheapest source of high-density calories, preferred by poor, ignorant people. Eating well is more expensive.

    No sympathy for the US auto mfr dinosaurs,

    what evil, greedy dumb s,

    already uncompe ive with the Japs and Germans,

    now not ready with fuel-efficient cars,

    as if they couldn't see $4+ was coming (and staying),

    and buying/compromising Congress to gut the recent revision of CAFE.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •