Spurs, Not Pistons, Need Major Retooling

[NewJerSpur]

No championship and they'd be trying to trade Melo just like the Nuggets.

Yup...Melo can score and that's about it which is why he and Karl are at odds. With his talent he should be more well-rounded as a player.

[Allanon]

Trading talent for talent usually results in a lateral move. Unless, of course, the team you are trading with is run by an "adviser" who would like nothing more to help out his former team.

Luckily Spurs fans aren't responsible for trades.

How are these points different?

Again, those would be lateral moves. Going from Rasheed to any of those players isn't that much of an improvement ... if it is at all.

My point is the Pistons have a lot more holes, including at coach, and while they have more assets, they also have more concerns. The Spurs have just a few concerns that could easily be handled without doing any major reshuffling.

Spurs aren't that loyal. They were ready to dump Robinson for Webber. They were ready to dump Parker and Ginobili for Kidd. The only player who the Spurs are loyal to is Duncan. Outside of him, anyone is expendable. Spurs fans are clingy but the management doesn't really factor in loyalty at all. The front office has watched players win championships and then let them walk the next summer without batting an eyelash.

I'd like to think the Spurs would pull a trade but the past history shows they stay loyal to their players. I can't remember any big trades in the last decade from the Spurs. They always feel this same core can do it again. Which to their credit, it worked. So maybe they feel it will work again.

Tim Duncan himself said he likes their team this year. When your franchise player says that, I have a feeling they'll try to retool on the fly as usual.

As for the Pistons, there's nothing wrong with them where a lateral move won't work. The Pistons are an excellent team with excellent balance. They have a perfect blend of veterans, talent, athleticism. youth and strength.

Their issue is chemistry and being bored the out of their minds playing with the same guys and same agenda for 5 years. They need new blood (including the coach), their team is still wildly talented and balanced enough to win it all...except the hunger has left the stars.

[JamStone]

My point is the Pistons have a lot more holes, including at coach, and while they have more assets, they also have more concerns. The Spurs have just a few concerns that could easily be handled without doing any major reshuffling.

I don't think the Pistons are any closer to a championship than the Spurs, but how do the Pistons have more holes?

Aside from getting a new coach, if they stood pat, they would still be fine. Now, we know that they will likely make changes, but it's more so due to chemistry and the staleness of the core than it is "holes."

The Spurs have a lot of holes on their roster: athletic big man to play alongside Duncan, back-up point guard, long combo forward to match up with the likes of Boris Diaw and Lamar Odom, a wing scorer in the starting line-up if Manu stays on the bench, overall youth and athleticism, a bench scorer in the front court.

The Spurs will probably be a better team than the Pistons when next season arrives, but they have a lot more holes and concerns to address than the Pistons.

[T Park]

Keep convincing yourselves the Spurs are dead people.

[timvp]

I'd like to think the Spurs would pull a trade but the past history shows they stay loyal to their players. I can't remember any big trades in the last decade from the Spurs. They always feel this same core can do it again. Which to their credit, it worked. So maybe they feel it will work again.

How is letting Robinson or Manu and TP walk showing loyalty to their players? The Spurs haven't made big trades as far as giving up core pieces but mostly because it's never made sense.

TD, Robinson, Manu and TP have been the core pieces and there has never been a trade that has come along that made sense to move them.

Tim Duncan himself said he likes their team this year. When your franchise player says that, I have a feeling they'll try to retool on the fly as usual.

Which is what they should do. The Spurs don't need to trade their proven and established foundation.

As for the Pistons, there's nothing wrong with them where a lateral move won't work. The Pistons are an excellent team with excellent balance. They have a perfect blend of veterans, talent, athleticism. and strength.

Their issue is chemistry and being bored the out of their minds playing with the same guys and same agenda for 5 years. They need new blood (including the coach), their team is still wildly talented and balanced.

The Pistons are good but that's going too far. I don't think a Piston Fan would even say they have the "perfect blend" and are "wildly talented". The Pistons win because they are a smart team that plays good basketball.

The Pistons can retool but again, needing to trade their core pieces and changing their coach are higher hurdles than the Spurs face this summer.

[timvp]

I don't think the Pistons are any closer to a championship than the Spurs, but how do the Pistons have more holes?

Aside from getting a new coach, if they stood pat, they would still be fine.

True. If the Pistons stood pat. But everything coming out of Detroit indicates they aren't going to stand pat .... so the rest of your post doesn't really come into play.

[JamStone]

It comes into play as it relates to having "holes," which you said the Pistons have more of.

They don't.

[T Park]

They aren't standing pat.

They are trading key players. After they trade said players, they will have more holes....

[Allanon]

How is letting Robinson or Manu and TP walk showing loyalty to their players? The Spurs haven't made big trades as far as giving up core pieces but mostly because it's never made sense.

TD, Robinson, Manu and TP have been the core pieces and there has never been a trade that has come along that made sense to move them.

That seems pretty loyal to me.

Which is what they should do. The Spurs don't need to trade their proven and established foundation.

Further establishing that the franchise is loyal to their players.

The Pistons are good but that's going too far. I don't think a Piston Fan would even say they have the "perfect blend" and are "wildly talented". The Pistons win because they are a smart team that plays good basketball.

They have the most talented starting 5 and possibly the 2nd best bench. It would not have surprised me if they won it all this year.

[timvp]

It comes into play as it relates to having "holes," which you said the Pistons have more of.

They don't.

Having to trade one of your main pieces isn't a hole? Not having a coach isn't a hole?

If you want to list them all out, I could say that the Pistons need a point guard who hasn't begun a steep decline in his career, a shooting guard that doesn't have an overinflated ego who also seems to be declining, a small forward that doesn't disappear like clockwork in the ECF, a power forward who isn't a one-man chemistry problem and a center that is actually a center. And a bench player that isn't either too young or too old.

Those assessments are about as fair as the ones you gave the Spurs

[timvp]

That seems pretty loyal to me.

Being on the verge of letting DRob, TP and Manu walk is loyal? What would be unloyal?

Further establishing that the franchise is loyal to their players.

?

What does that even mean?

They have the most talented starting 5 and possibly the 2nd best bench.

ROFL. If any team in the league had the most talented starting five and the second best bench, they'd win every championship.

[K-State Spur]

That seems pretty loyal to me.


Further establishing that the franchise is loyal to their players.


They have the most talented starting 5 and possibly the 2nd best bench.

You're confusing loyalty with intelligence. Should they move the guys who are key pieces on a championship team for lesser talent just to prove that they are not always loyal?

[Allanon]

Being on the verge of letting DRob, TP and Manu walk is loyal? What would be unloyal?

Being on the verge is different than pulling the trigger. Like the Lakers were on the verge of trading Kobe but it didn't happen. The Lakers stuck with Kobe even through his whining and demands. Just like DRob, TP and Manu were never traded or let go...the franchise stayed loyal to its guys. You can say the Lakers just didn't find a better offer but realistically, they could have gotten any NBA player outside of LeBron and Duncan for Kobe. Shoot, they traded Shaq for Lamar and Caron Butler.

ROFL. If any team in the league had the most talented starting five and the second best bench, they'd win every championship.

I don't think you can find a better starting five out there solely based on talent. Most teams have 2-3 good players and 2-3 mediocre starters...every one of the Piston's 5 is solid. And outside of the Lakers, I can't think of a deeper bench than the Pistons have. I think alot of people thought the Pistons would end up winning it all this year.

[NewJerSpur]

What I believe KS and Timvp mean is that the Spurs not being able to trade some of their more weighted names/talent in the past has more to do with the deal falling through than it does with the Spurs feeling nostalgic...they've tried to trade Brent Barry (a Spur fan favorite and key contributor) multiple times, and thank God those trades fell through, otherwise we might be missing a trophy.

[timvp]

Being on the verge is different than pulling the trigger. Like the Lakers were on the verge of trading Kobe but it didn't happen. The Lakers stuck with Kobe even through his whining and demands. Just like DRob, TP and Manu were never traded or let go...the franchise stayed loyal to its guys. You can say the Lakers just didn't find a better offer but realistically, they could have gotten any NBA player outside of LeBron and Duncan for Kobe. Shoot, they traded Shaq for Lamar and Caron Butler.

The difference is the Spurs had already cut the cord. The Spurs didn't back out ... those players just didn't sign. If Webber would have signed, Robinson would have been gone. If Kidd would have signed, Parker and Ginobili would have been gone.

That's a whole lot different than thinking about trading someone and then deciding against it.

I don't think you can find a better starting five out there solely based on talent. Most teams have 2-3 good players and 2-3 mediocre starters...every one of the Piston's 5 is solid. And outside of the Lakers, I can't think of a deeper bench than the Pistons have. I think alot of people thought the Pistons would end up winning it all this year.

Starting five, yeah the Pistons have no doubt the deepest starters. One through five they are good. I don't know if they have the best starters because they don't really have one superstar so it's hard to gauge.

But bench? No way in they have the second best bench in the NBA. That's laughable. Their bench in the playoffs was basically Stuckey and Maxiell. A little bit of Ratliff and Hunter but that's about it. How could you consider that the second best bench in the NBA?

If you want to say their bench has a lot of potential, that's fine. But in actual play, they didn't produce too much in the playoffs.

[Allanon]

The difference is the Spurs had already cut the cord. The Spurs didn't back out ... those players just didn't sign. If Webber would have signed, Robinson would have been gone. If Kidd would have signed, Parker and Ginobili would have been gone.

That's a whole lot different than thinking about trading someone and then deciding against it.

To be honest, I don't know the entire story behind these trades, you probably know about the back story than I do. From an outsider view, it looked like the Spurs stayed loyal to their players.

Starting five, yeah the Pistons have no doubt the deepest starters. One through five they are good. I don't know if they have the best starters because they don't really have one superstar so it's hard to gauge.

But bench? No way in they have the second best bench in the NBA. That's laughable. Their bench in the playoffs was basically Stuckey and Maxiell. A little bit of Ratliff and Hunter but that's about it. How could you consider that the second best bench in the NBA?

If you want to say their bench has a lot of potential, that's fine. But in actual play, they didn't produce too much in the playoffs.

Yes, the bench didn't play much of a role during the Playoffs but played well in the season, especially in the last leg. I was surprised that Flip went with Theo Ratliff in the Playoffs, probably throwing off the bench mojo. Differing views on the bench but fair enough.

[NewJerSpur]

For further evidence of the Spurs lack of loyalty (business mindset): They dumped the "Little General" Avery Johnson soon after he captured his first and only ring with the team....this is the same guy who bossed the Admirale around and hit the shot that won the Spurs their first championship in franchise history.

Pop leaning heavy on his vets at times doesn't really equate to loyalty either. He went to Horry over KT in the LA series because of Horry's knowledge of Phil's system and his defensive flexibility in guarding a matchup problem like Odom....he forgot that Rob barely played any of the season. He also had no choice but to go to Finley, who played decently in stretches throughout the playoffs and hit some major shots in the team's 1st two series. Unfortunately Michael got worked on defense, missed the other quarter of his big shots, and started to pass up open jumpers as a result.

[T Park]

Yes, the bench didn't play much of a role during the Playoffs but played well in the season, especially in the last leg. I was surprised that Flip went with Theo Ratliff in the Playoffs, probably throwing off the bench mojo. Differing views on the bench but fair enough.

Why would that differ from his past moves?

[T Park]

For further evidence of the Spurs lack of loyalty (business mindset): They dumped the "Little General" Avery Johnson soon after he captured his first and only ring with the team....this is the same guy who bossed the Admirale around and hit the shot that won the Spurs their first championship in franchise history.

It was 2 years after, he was a free agent, and uh, Pop encouraged him to take the contract....

[NewJerSpur]

It was 2 years after, he was a free agent, and uh, Pop encouraged him to take the contract....

An "and 1" for T Park. Lost track of the time and situation in that instance, but nevertheless my overall point still stands...and its not as if they were begging Avery to come back for Nostalgic purposes.

[JamStone]

Having to trade one of your main pieces isn't a hole? Not having a coach isn't a hole?

If you want to list them all out, I could say that the Pistons need a point guard who hasn't begun a steep decline in his career, a shooting guard that doesn't have an overinflated ego who also seems to be declining, a small forward that doesn't disappear like clockwork in the ECF, a power forward who isn't a one-man chemistry problem and a center that is actually a center. And a bench player that isn't either too young or too old.

Those assessments are about as fair as the ones you gave the Spurs

timvp,

Generally, I find you very objective and fair. This is a case where you're not.

So, I'll leave it at that.

[Allanon]

Why would that differ from his past moves?

This was supposed to be the "New and Improved" Flip Saunders who developed his bench so they can contribute in the Playoffs. So much for that.