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Here you go Marcus:
or
it, ians ready, 40 points 25 rebounds 8 blocks will be his averages next year.
Here you go Marcus:
Last edited by tmtcsc; 06-06-2008 at 02:20 PM.
See Mike Monroe E-N article, 5/31/08, in which Mike shares with us that Pop will have to limit Manu's minutes next season due to his playing in the Olympics and having only 5 weeks' rest until training camp, and that the Spurs can't afford to let Michael Finley go because of Manu's situation.
That's nice. He's not in as good a condition as Bruce Bowen from a few years ago.
Unfortunately, the NBA is not going to start handicapping games based upon lifetime achievement. He's stopped improving and begun a slow decline. If there were a whole bunch of other Spurs who were improving by leaps and bounds, that would be acceptable, but when most of the team is in decline, the net result is that the team gets worse.
Chris Paul.
Seriously, you're OK with the fact that Bruce Bowen isn't even making Kobe Bryant work that hard for his shots anymore? What's your plan for getting past the Lakers in the future? Pray for an asteroid to hit the Staples Center?
Are you expecting the Hornets to continue to choke away playoff series due to inexperience? Did you know that as young teams gain experience, they actually stop being "inexperienced?"
So, hmm, if the Spurs can't get by the Lakers, and if the Hornets pass them up, that makes them at best second-round playoff fodder.
In other words, woulda, shoulda, coulda.
Manu's developing multiple injuries by the playoffs has something to do with his logging a career high in minutes.
What in R.C.'s recent record indicates he'll get the right players, especially since his resources to do so are so limited?
The same players are now two years older, and a few of them are obviously done as NBA players.
Is there some list of secret super-awesome free agents that only R.C. Buford has? It's easy to have boundless optimism about some idealized MLE player the team can sign that just happens to hit the spot. That optimism fades when one looks at who is actually available.Mo Evans ?You're a genius. Maybe the Spurs ought to hire you in the front office.
Did you know that even Isiah Thomas and Chris Wallace have more expertise and knowledge than you do when it comes to running a basketball team? Does that mean they are trustworthy in their field?
And who cares about what Golden State and Denver did? Did they knock the Spurs out of the playoffs?
Well, then, I guess the Spurs were screwed going into this offseason no matter what happened, because no, the problems aren't fixable in the short term, and further problems are going to sprout more quickly than the Spurs fix the ones that already exist.
It's going to take about three years to retool.
Did anybody ever claim that Luis Scola was supposed to be a superstar who singlehandedly carried his team to playoff victory? I guess by your logic the Spurs would have to turn down the chance to acquire any player who isn't on the Lakers or Celtics, since clearly they aren't good enough to get their teams to the Finals. Giving up draft picks and young players in order to "win now" is great when the team does "win now," and the Spurs did, and it was great. But now it has caught up to them, and it's made worse by the fact that most of the handful of young players they did have in the stockpile came to naught. Farting away two good players on a twelve-man roster is pretty significant.
This team has a lot more broken than those teams did and it will take more than one offseason to fix it. That, and recent performance by the GM inspires no confidence than he will meet, much less exceed that expectation.
That around 2008, most of the key players around the Big 3 would be of advanced age, and that replacements needed to be ready.
I love the past success. However, in 2008-09 the NBA will award the Spurs zero wins in the standings because of that past performance.
In a couple of years, they will go into decline, just like the Spurs now.
You're right, it would be terrible if the Spurs had Andrew Bynum at center, or Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, and Ronny Turiaf coming off the bench. Thank God the Spurs didn't draft like the Lakers.
The Lakers have drafted awesome in the late first round and in the second.
Ronny Turiaf, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, Trevor Ariza (they traded Cook for him along with an LLE player).
That's pretty damn good and got them into the Finals.
LA did a good job but those guys were also on that roster (while SA was winning a couple of championships) and Kobe was wanting to get away from them. No playoffs and two first round exits for LAL.
Young players require patience to mature. Did the Spurs over the last five years have time to develop young players while they play through mistakes? I don't think so. Good for the Lakers they developed their bench, but it almost cost them Kobe (remember the trade request). It still took a sweetheart deal to get them over the top.
He would be way too expensive...and he is old and broken down..
Yeah props to them but I think getting Gasol had a bit to do with it as well. I can bust R.C.'s chops for whiffing lately in the draft but I can't fault him for not getting some Rainman GM giving him an all star on a silver platter.
Our problem has been more in developing players than getting them on the team.
I'm not sure why Ian needs to be able to score because if he's in the game with Duncan he's going to get points without having plays run for him. You tell him to rebound and defend, you send him to the front of the rim when someone gets doubled. , you might be able to bring back the high/low with him and he might be good on pick and rolls to get him some extra shots, but it's not necessary if he's getting second chance points or a lob or two per game. I'm sick about the Splitter situation, but it's not nearly as bleak as many make it sound, at least at that position. The day Bowen loses a step is a much bigger concern to me than who's in the middle, as long as it's not Horry or Finley.
Ian needs to be able to stay on the court, which may be a problem for him at this point.
You say he needs to defend, but in reality he needs to defend effectively (i.e. without fouling). Ian is sure to bring more athleticism to the team and will hopefully provide energy if he makes it onto the court....but I'm not sure he's ready for primetime.
Sure, the Splitter situation isn't as dire as some make it sound.....but he combined youth/athleticism with experience against top international compe ion.
That's not easy to replace, and I don't think you can expect Ian to do so.
Yeah, Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire have that problem, too. Frankly, Oberto and Thomas spend a lot of time in foul trouble. There's really only one way to find out if Ian can learn controlled aggression and good decision-making.
In actual reality, he only needs to defend more effectively than whoever he's taking minutes from. Considering the amount of times Oberto's put up stinker performances, it's certainly worth a shot. If he can get rebounds and blocks and maybe a point here or there while learning the defense, which takes a while, there's no downside whatsoever. He's not taking a roster spot from anyone. , if he's missing rotations but altering shots in the paint he's about as effective as Elson, even if he somehow forgets how to rebound.
The nice thing is the Spurs don't have to replace something they never had. Expecting him to be a step up from nothing isn't an overwhelming expectation.
My takeaway from your last post Obstructed View, is that Mahinmi needs to be more effective than the other two player's he'd take minutes from....Oberto and most likely Thomas.
My problem is that I don't think he can be more effective than either at this point. Yes he'd be more athletic, but Oberto makes the little plays (offensive tipouts, inside passes) and Thomas is simply a better all-around player that just needs a little more time in the system.
All that said, I'm not opposed to him getting an opportunity to prove me wrong...in fact I welcome it. I just remain skeptical that it can happen. Also, I don't buy your argument that he's stepping up from nothing....because he's going to replace someone's minutes from this year, and his production has to be measured against that.
This is difficult to admit but Pop needs to take a page from the Doc Rivers school of coaching. Look what he did this year with the Celtics with regards to young players. He has a lot of old veterans but he stuck with Kendrick Perkins and Rajon Rondo all year and now it's paying off. He did the same with Leon Powe off the bench.
Pop must take the same approach with Mahinmi. I seriously think you start him throughout preseason and all the way to the all-star break. You let him work through his mistakes. And really, starting a player and letting him play the first 8 to 10 minutes of each half isn't too risky. At the All-Star break if Mahinmi has been horrible, then you send him to Austin for the rest of the year and then maybe make a trade to find a replacement big. If Mahinmi has been good, then you keep rolling with it. Going into next season with Oberto or Thomas as a starter would be a big mistake.
With Splitter not coming, and if the West is anything like this past season, Pop will not have the patience. It's going to be like Elson. Play some games here and there, then to the doghouse. When playoffs come around, he'll be the 3rd big on the rotation, will have close to no playing time, and we're going to roll with the same old dudes. Like you said, the only exception being he gets traded for another big vet in January.
Our team has become way too predictable.
I agree with all of that.
But that is not what I believe will happen, and that's why I'm one of the 'pessimistic' posters on the board (i would argue realistic).
Oberto or Thomas will begin next season as starters. The preseason they'll probably split starts. Mahinmi will only get big burn in the final preseason game where the Spurs sit out anyone important. Then he'll be back in bench territory.
I hope I'm wrong . . . but I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Diop and Magette.
Pop figured it out with Stephen Jackson. He could have gone with Smitty or Ferry (or a hobbled Ginobili) but he went with Jackson and that move resulted in championship number two.
And really, Mahinmi has shown more than Jackson ever did. Jackson was a malcontent who was horrible during that preseason. He was so bad I'm surprised he wasn't cut. But Pop stuck with him.
Hopefully that Pop returns next year. I actually think he's good at coaching young players. He got a bad rap the last few years for not coaching young players but he hasn't really had a very good young player for a while. Beno was pretty good but he wasn't compe ive enough for Pop. Pop likes players who actually care about winning .... no matter their age.
Mahinmi almost carrying the Toros to the D-League le as one of the youngest players in the league bodes well for his compe iveness and Pop I think will give him a fair shot. I'm more concerned with Mahinmi being ready than Pop being stubborn and riding Oberto and Thomas into the ground.
If we get Ian to play more next year it would be interesting to see if he could guard Amare.
From my memory Pop actually tried to go with an old Smith and a hobbled Ginobili, but Smith got hurt early and Ginobili was banged up, forcing Jackson upon Pop. By the time Smith and Ginobili were alright Jackson had played too well for Pop to send him back to the bench.
Now imo injuries to other bigs like Oberto (nothing serious) would be good for the Spurs in the long run, because that would force Pop to play Mahinmi.
Re: Beno, lately I've been questioning how he was handled more than in the past when only questoning why NVE got time against Dallas.
And the reason is Sasha Vujacic. His first two years in the league Vujacic was a horrible, soft, short armed waste of a player that was a source of anger for Laker fans. He was even abused by Kobe, both verbally and even physically pushed around by Kobe on the Lakers bench. I read many times on Laker boards the remorse of taking Vujacic over Beno(!). But with patience and time he became a legit rotation player. It took 4 years, but it happened.
Now of course there's differences, such as Vujacic was 3 years younger than Beno so of course wouldn't be that mature, and was played out of position his first year.
But I wonder if Vujacic would have even gotten those 3 years of struggling development under Pop. I have to say that I doubt it.
So while I hope that the Pop of 03 who said things like "we're a young team making young-type mistakes" and then had the patience to ride out those young mistakes returns . . . I have to remain severely skeptical of that happening.
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more re: Jackson
Going back over box scores manages to both confirm and contradict my recollections.
Steve Smith began the year by starting opening night (Stephen Jackson played 5 minutes), but the injury put on him on ice.
The the hobbled Ginobili started a few games, but he was slowed by injury.
So who started after Ginobili was too hung up by injury to be counted on?
Danny Ferry according to the box score.
Then Jackson for a game, then Smith came back and started a string of games, during that time Manu went on IL, and then Jackson got the starts with Smith off the bench.
25 games into the season.
It took 25 games into the regular season, almost a third of the season after a horrible postseason where the elderly Smith proved he wasn't the answer to get Stephen Jackson to finally get the starts, and it needed injuries to Ginobili to make that happen as well. And on top of that Pop at one point actually gave ancient Danny Ferry a start before Jackson.
To me that doesn't bode well for Mahinmi getting immediate burn and starts while Pop has a healthy Oberto there at the least, even if Thomas doesn't get re-signed. After all, Oberto was the starter on a le team. Smith was a guy who never won anything in the NBA.
I agree that Pop should start Mahinmi. But going back over the history, including 2003, I can't predict that to happen.
The more I think about it....the less reactionary the Spurs should be.
Of course, I think the first step should be to re-sign Kurt Thomas. He's a decent player, even at his age, that should be able to bring more next year as he gets comfortable in the system.
Beyond that, I think the talent of bigs in FA is generally low and there isn't one guy the Spurs have to get. If the Spurs re-sign Thomas and give Mahinmi a shot early, they should be in a good position to make a determination if anything is needed down the stretch....whether that's a rookie the Spurs picked up in the second round or a lingering FA for the min.
Getting spacy here, but I'm thinking that Pop's going to endorse some new changes after conferring with key players.
Pop has adjusted in the past when cir stances called for it.
He listens a lot to Timmy and Timmy's had some down time to put everything in perspective.
I don't know why you are surprised it took that long for Jackson to start. Yeah Smitty sucked but Jackson wasn't exactly tearing things up for the Spurs that year either. Jackson was HORRIBLE in the preseason, he shot like 35% in summer league and had shown no reason why he should start other than a stretch of games with the Nets ... before Byron Scott benched him and said Jackson was too dumb for the NBA.
Early in the 2002-03 season, whenever Jackson did good the Spurs lost. His +/- was off the charts low. He was extremely raw and Spurs fans back then were mostly complaining that Jackson was playing too much.
And the plan going into the season was to start Ginobili. IIRC, he started the first couple preseason games. But he was so hobbled that Pop went back with Smitty. The plan at the time was to let Ginobili heal and then put Ginobili back in the starting lineup. But Smitty got so bad he wasn't even startable as a placeholder.
After Pop gave Jax the starting job, it was far from a smooth ride. Turnovers, streaky shooting and poor defense highlighted his first few months as a starter. Luckily Pop stuck with it.
Oh and the game Ferry started, IIRC it was against the Timberwolves when Flip Saunders was in that phase of trying to start KG at small forward. It was a one-time matchup start to go up against the three seven-footers the Wolves were starting.
Overall, Jackson hadn't done much to earn the starting job before Pop gave it to him. Back then, there were as many Spurs fans who thought Jackson was a brainless chucker as there were Spurs fans who liked him.
Mahinmi actually has some seasoning and something the Spurs can use as a base. If Mahinmi is anywhere close to being ready for NBA action, I'm confident Pop will force feed him. We'll see though . . .
A better example from that 2003 team to compare to Mahinmi is Claxton. Pop could have gone with his veteran safety net in Steve Kerr but Pop remained dedicated to the 24-year-old Claxton. He never dropped him out of the rotation ... even after he got hurt and came back with Kerr playing the best ball of his Spurs career.
That doesn't fly anymore. The west is no longer 3-4 teams deep. It's 8-9 teams deep now. We can't keep on having our starters have to produce 75+ points per game to win. We need to cut that back to 60+ so they can get some rest. Which means we need a bench that can give us 30+ a night on a consistent basis.
'Sticking to our old guns' doesn't work, because whenever our bench comes in, only one or two guys produce. Plus old guys get injured more often (Bones, Horry), which makes our bench even thinner, and puts even more pressure on our starters. If there's something we have to learn from this past season is that Tim, Tony and Manu were completely spent by the time the playoffs came around. We need a much more productive bench.
I don't know if you do it with vets or youngs, but we need at least twice the offensive output, and they need to keep the defense relatively the same.
No easy task.
Exactly. You get that kind of production increase via lopsided trades or good veterans taking a paycut to get a ring....neither of which are likely to happen this off-season.
And again, since there isn't much of a difference talent-wise between the free agents that will require the full MLE and those that will require the LLE, it's probably best for the Spurs to take their time and assess the situation.
Bottom Line: The frontline player that can increase the offensive output and maintain defense doesn't exist in this year's draft or free agent class. So it's best for the Spurs not to panic and leverage the future (via draft picks or $$$).
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