Your top 10 players all-time

[dbreiden83080]

Robinson, maybe, although he was rarely very interested in rebounding.

LOL, what same question have you ever seen Robinson play???

[bobbyjoe]

Michael Jordan had two amazing three-year stretches in his career. But before, between, and after those three year stretches he was nothing but a stat , a more selfish Vince Carter who only committed himself to defense sporadically. He got three coaches fired and was a horrible team player.

Those three year stretches were fantastic and right up there with any stretch by a swingman in history. But it should take more than six years of greatness to make the top ten players of all-time list, much less number one.

Shaquille O'Neal had only a terrific 4 year stretch of his career. But before and after that he was nothing but a stat who was only interested in scoring. His teams were after all swept several times in the playoffs. At one point, things were so bad he was even traded by the Lakers. His on court dominance was mitigated by his disruption on team chemistry and a lack of committment to be the best he could.

That 4 year run was great, but it should take more than 4 years of playing the absolute best stretch of ball ever seen by a big man in the freaking history of the sport to make the top ten players of all time.

Hakeem, Shaq, and Jordan are all getting way too much love on this thread. Take away their short periods of intense and utter domination and they really were only good players. That shouldnt get you in the top 10 of all time.

The strength of the peak period after all is simply irrelevant. So what if the strengths of these players is so ridiculously dominant that they were champions or strong contenders almost every year of their peak years? That stuff's overrated. It's all about being very good, but not great, for a longer stretch of time. I think Karl Malone just moved ahead of Hakeem, Jordan, and Shaq on my all time list.

[Bob Lanier]

LOL, what same question have you ever seen Robinson play???

During his scoring-champion and MVP seasons, he only averaged 10 boards a game.

He, like Shaq, should have been a much better rebounder than he was. In fact, Shaq was a better rebounder than David (even considering only David's pre-injury seasons), and considering how lazy Shaq was that's inexcusable.

[timvp]

I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

It's not nice caging up KG like that.

In the meantime, it's not a frivolous comparison. If Olajuwon had had the teammates Jordan had (and didn't play for a bigger Texas city than your own), chances are you'd be saying "ROFL @ comparing Olajuwon to Jordan" about now.

I'd like to pretend 1986 never happened, too. I really would. Jordan had at least eight great years, probably closer to ten.

How many times was Jordan elimated in the first round? Three, right? BFD.

This is also applicable to Jordan.

What does a bigger Texas city have to do with anything? Weren't you a Piston fan before jumping on the Laker bandwagon. Piston fan would have reason to downplay Jordan. The Spurs and Rockets played one series of note with Hakeem as the star and I've already admitted he dominated that era.

No, not really. Not as good as Duncan is today, but hardly "horrible".

In the last 20 years, the only players to average over 24 points and 1.8 assists or less? Amare Stoudemire and *gasp* Hakeem. And at least Stoudemire has the excuse of Steve Nash always making plays. Who did Hakeem have? Sleepy Floyd?

This is laughable. He was a better defender in the late '80s, two or three years into his career, than he was in his championship seasons.

Disagree. His best defensive years were the years when they Rockets won championships. He stopped all his gambling and played more under control defense. He'd still gamble at times and make great plays but he wasn't constantly going for steals and blocks like earlier in his career.

[lefty]

Michael Finley
Jacques Vaughn
Fabricio Obero
M...

Wait, why am I writing down Popovich's list ?

[timvp]

Very well said Bob Lanier.

Comparing Olajuwon to a Marcus Camby defensively is just sheer stupidity.

As you suggest, Olajuwon was a MUCH better defender in his early years than his prime. The guy was an absolute behemoth on defense from Day 1.

Besides Bill Russell, never has this game seen a big with that combination of defensive agility, excellent range, superior instincts, and tenacity.

Which led to all that success. Obviously.

Comparing Duncan's 2003 cast to what Hakeem had his first 8 years of his career is also sheer insanity.

The poster of that must not have realized that after 1986 trip to the Finals the Rockets lost 4 of their core rotational players to injuries and drug suspensions (Sampson, Lloyd, Lucas, Wiggins). This sent Houston into a rebuilding period where they had some casts from 87-92 that were not even close to what Duncan had in 2003. Absolutely not even remotely close.

Walton also did certainly not own Olajuwon in that series. Walton averaged about 8 ppg that series. Hakeem was in his 2nd season and dominating against the best frontline in NBA history arguably in Walton, Parish, McHale, and Bird. Duncan has never faced anything remotely like that. Just last week there was an interview on ESPN with Bird and Walton, where Bird was ribbing Walton about how Hakeem was embarassing him that series.

As Lakers fans, we all remember being in shock that Houston emerged in 86 in the WCF. Hakeem was far and away the #1 reason. And that came against a team which was one of the best dynasties ever right in the middle of their run.

Duncan has never ever played on casts as poorly as the ones Olajuwon did from 87-92. If he had, perhaps some moron would be calling him a stat because he couldnt lead a bunch of scrubs to the NBA Finals...

I defy you to make any sort of a case that Duncan would have got further with Olajuwon's supporting casts in his first 8 years than the Rockets did.

Akeem wasn't as lucky as Duncan was to land on a team with a HOF Center who was 2 yrs removed from MVP and a SF who had been an all star in the past.

After the fallout with Sampson which was 2 yrs into Olajuwon's career, the best player he played with for the next several years was Sleepy Floyd. That team was gutted and featured journeymen and castoffs. It's not even remotely comparable to having a Manu, Parker, Bruce Bowen, and declining David Robinson even if Manu and Parker were young. As noted, that "young" Parker killed Gary Payton in the playoffs in 2002 as a rookie or 2nd yr player.

And OBTW, in those 8 yrs where "Hakeem wasn't very good" he led the league in rebounding 3 years, blocks.

You say he didn't play great defense? Uh, the guy was first team all NBA Defense from 1987-1990. This was an era where there were also some terrific big men. I guess the rest of the coaches, players, and media disagreed. Also first team NBA from 87-90. Led the league in blocks in 3 of these "Amare stoudemire" type of years. 6 consecutive years of over 2.0 steals per game (unheard of for a center).

Let me ask you a question. What do you see that the rest of the world doesn't? Why did he keep getting voted to all defense 1st team or 2nd team yr in and yr out, make the all star game every year, etc? Let me guess: Because one play of the 1986 Finals Bill Walton had a bucket on him?

ROFL. I'm not going to engage bandwagon Laker fan in a discussion about how you think Olajuwon is the greatest player ever. I can recognize bait when I see it. You have hundreds of posts on this forum extolling the virtues of Olajuwon. You can go sucker someone else into your discussion of Olajuwon's greatness.

I'll make some quick points but I'm not letting you hook me into a debate. Bandwagon Laker Fan coming on Spurs board to post mostly about Hakeem isn't getting a rise out of timvp. I've seen this bandwagon antic for years.

1) I didn't say Walton outplayed Hakeem. I said he embarrassed. Walton dunked on Hakeem numerous times and was Boston's best player at slowing him down. Go watch the games if you don't believe me. Walton was about 20% of his former self and Olajuwon was at the peak of his athleticism and at times, Walton could play right with him.

2) Duncan has never been eliminated in the first round. How many times did Hakeem get eliminated in the first round ... or not even make the playoffs? Next.

3) Your bandwagoning azz scoffed at the Camby comparison and then pointed out how many times Hakeem led the league in blocks and was named to all defensive teams. Uh, Camby has led the league in blocks four times. He's also one of the best rebounders of the last five years. He also won awards and was named to the all-defensive teams. You can't scoff and then point to the same things that Camby did as proof as he's better than Camby.

But yeah, go see if you can hook someone else. I'm not falling for your bait.

Oh and Hakeem was older than Duncan is right now when he peaked. Comparing the two doesn't make any sense considering one is an open book and the other one spends most of his time in Jordan.

[bobbyjoe]

Which led to all that success. Obviously.

ROFL. I'm not going to engage bandwagon Laker fan in a discussion about how you think Olajuwon is the greatest player ever. I can recognize bait when I see it. You have hundreds of posts on this forum extolling the virtues of Olajuwon. You can go sucker someone else into your discussion of Olajuwon's greatness.

I'll make some quick points but I'm not letting you hook me into a debate. Bandwagon Laker Fan coming on Spurs board to post mostly about Hakeem isn't getting a rise out of timvp. I've seen this bandwagon antic for years.

1) I didn't say Walton outplayed Hakeem. I said he embarrassed. Walton dunked on Hakeem numerous times and was Boston's best player at slowing him down. Go watch the games if you don't believe me. Walton was about 20% of his former self and Olajuwon was at the peak of his athleticism and at times, Walton could play right with him.

2) Duncan has never been eliminated in the first round. How many times did Hakeem get eliminated in the first round ... or not even make the playoffs? Next.

3) Your bandwagoning azz scoffed at the Camby comparison and then pointed out how many times Hakeem led the league in blocks and was named to all defensive teams. Uh, Camby has led the league in blocks four times. He's also one of the best rebounders of the last five years. He also won awards and was named to the all-defensive teams. You can't scoff and then point to the same things that Camby did as proof as he's better than Camby.

But yeah, go see if you can hook someone else. I'm not falling for your bait.

Oh and Hakeem was older than Duncan is right now when he peaked. Comparing the two doesn't make any sense considering one is an open book and the other one spends most of his time in Jordan.

Embarassing is Amare Stoudemire dropping 38 a game on Duncan for an entire series.

Or seeing David Robinson eaten alive by Hakeem for an entire series after winning his "MVP".

It's pretty obvious you didn't watch that series in 1986. Bill Walton was a complete bit player. Like I said, there was an interview just last week with Bird mocking Walton about how Olajuwon would constantly take the ball right out of Walton's hands that series. Walton was a reserve on that team who didn't even get much PT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...86_finals.html

Here are Walton's #'s from the 1986 Finals. An INCREDIBLE 8.0 ppg!!!! WOW, where would the Celtics have been without him "embarassing" Hakeem who only had a pedestrian 25/12 line.

It says a lot about your "argument" that your main point of contention about Hakeem being an overrated defender is making the proposterous claim that a guy who averaged 8.0 ppg in a playoff series "embarassed" Hakeem.

Nice try on the comparison with Camby. First off, Camby is playing in a diluted era with very little compe ion for first team defensive honors at the Center position. Olajuwon though played in an era with guys like Mark Eaton, Pat Ewing, David Robinson, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo and was consistently #1 or #2 all-NBA defense.

Camby also has nowhere near the range or quick hands as Hakeem and is much slighter of build and thus more vulnerable to being powered down low.

BFD on Duncan "not ever losing in the first round". He's had a ton more talent than Hakeem did on balance in his career (I notice you wisely didn't even attempt a serious argument that Duncan's 03 cast was weaker than or equal to that of Olajuwon from 87-92) and played in a weaker era.

This isn't at all a comparison between the 2 players though. I agree on that with you as that's a subject that's been debated ad nauseum on this forum. This is about you making some ridiculous comments about Olajuwon being overstated as a defender because a backup in the NBA finals (who later made the Hall of Fame) scored a scintillating 8.0 ppg against him.

Why oh why did Olajuwon consistently end up the #1 or #2 Center in the ALL NBA and All defensive teams year in and year out in a Center-stacked era if he was a gambling stat ?

Let me ask you a question:

If you characterize Walton dropping 8 ppg on Hakeem as embarassment, how would you characterize what Olajuwon did to Robinson in 95? Or what Amare did to Duncan in 2005?

[bobbyjoe]

It's not nice caging up KG like that.

What does a bigger Texas city have to do with anything? Weren't you a Piston fan before jumping on the Laker bandwagon. Piston fan would have reason to downplay Jordan. The Spurs and Rockets played one series of note with Hakeem as the star and I've already admitted he dominated that era.

In the last 20 years, the only players to average over 24 points and 1.8 assists or less? Amare Stoudemire and *gasp* Hakeem. And at least Stoudemire has the excuse of Steve Nash always making plays. Who did Hakeem have? Sleepy Floyd?

Disagree. His best defensive years were the years when they Rockets won championships. He stopped all his gambling and played more under control defense. He'd still gamble at times and make great plays but he wasn't constantly going for steals and blocks like earlier in his career.

Now THIS is rich.

When Olajuwon has years where he averages over 4.0 BPG and 2.0 SPG (the net result of this is that 6 offensive possessions a game are essentially deprived from an opponent and are also highly likely to result in fast break opportunities for his team), then stats are meaningless.

But then Olajuwon averaging 1.8 assists is proof that he was a terrible passer. As if a big man's passing prowess can be judged by his assist totals. I suppose the fact that in those years his best teammate was Sleepy Floyd somehow is just irrelevant. Perhaps if Duncan was passing Floyd the ball, Floyd wouldnt suck so bad.

Most great big men struggle as passers early in their careers and then improve substantially. See Duncan, see Shaq, see Karl Malone, see Olajuwon.

Having watched the 2 extensively, Duncan did improve on his passing at a faster clip than Olajuwon although Hakeem at his peak was an equal to or better passer than Tim.

This is about the only area where Duncan really outshines Hakeem in terms of career skill set. However, it should also be noted that Olajuwon was a FAR superior outlet passer than Duncan.

These passes dont result in assists but trigger fast breaks. Olajuwon developed this skill in his college phi slamma jamma days when he was on a run and gun team and carried it over to the NBA. This enabled his team to get a lot more fast break teams than Duncan's ever did.

You can't have it both ways and expect to be seriously. On the one hand you call the guy a stat to diminish his unparalleled combination of steal and block totals but then chastise him for a low assist total early in his career. Do only assist stats matter for Hakeem in evaluating him?!

[timvp]

Embarassing is Amare Stoudemire dropping 38 a game on Duncan for an entire series.

Spurs won that series in five games.

Or seeing David Robinson eaten alive by Hakeem for an entire series after winning his "MVP".

Kinda like Kobe getting eaten alive by Paul Pierce after winning his "MVP." ROFL. Guess it's about time to hop on another bandwagon, eh?

It's pretty obvious you didn't watch that series in 1986. Bill Walton was a complete bit player. Like I said, there was an interview just last week with Bird mocking Walton about how Olajuwon would constantly take the ball right out of Walton's hands that series. Walton was a reserve on that team who didn't even get much PT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...86_finals.html

Here are Walton's #'s from the 1986 Finals. An INCREDIBLE 8.0 ppg!!!! WOW, where would the Celtics have been without him "embarassing" Hakeem who only had a pedestrian 25/12 line.

It says a lot about your "argument" that your main point of contention about Hakeem being an overrated defender is making the proposterous claim that a guy who averaged 8.0 ppg in a playoff series "embarassed" Hakeem.

Were you dropped on your head as a baby bandwagoner? Again, I never said Walton outplayed him. I also don't care what Bird jokingly told him. I watched the series and I saw Walton repeatedly dunk on Hakeem's azz and he was the Celtics' go-to defender against Hakeem.

I don't care if Walton averaged two points per game -- he punked Hakeem repeatedly in that series. Who knows which bandwagon you were on at the time but you should go back and watch the series and put down the calculator.

Nice try on the comparison with Camby. First off, Camby is playing in a diluted era with very little compe ion for first team defensive honors at the Center position. Olajuwon though played in an era with guys like Mark Eaton, Pat Ewing, David Robinson, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo and was consistently #1 or #2 all-NBA defense.

Camby also has nowhere near the range or quick hands as Hakeem and is much slighter of build and thus more vulnerable to being powered down low.

BFD on Duncan "not ever losing in the first round". He's had a ton more talent than Hakeem did on balance in his career (I notice you wisely didn't even attempt a serious argument that Duncan's 03 cast was weaker than or equal to that of Olajuwon from 87-92) and played in a weaker era.

This isn't at all a comparison between the 2 players though. I agree on that with you as that's a subject that's been debated ad nauseum on this forum. This is about you making some ridiculous comments about Olajuwon being overstated as a defender because a backup in the NBA finals (who later made the Hall of Fame) scored a scintillating 8.0 ppg against him.

Why oh why did Olajuwon consistently end up the #1 or #2 Center in the ALL NBA and All defensive teams year in and year out in a Center-stacked era if he was a gambling stat ?

Let me ask you a question:

If you characterize Walton dropping 8 ppg on Hakeem as embarassment, how would you characterize what Olajuwon did to Robinson in 95? Or what Amare did to Duncan in 2005?

Now THIS is rich.

When Olajuwon has years where he averages over 4.0 BPG and 2.0 SPG (the net result of this is that 6 offensive possessions a game are essentially deprived from an opponent and are also highly likely to result in fast break opportunities for his team), then stats are meaningless.

But then Olajuwon averaging 1.8 assists is proof that he was a terrible passer. As if a big man's passing prowess can be judged by his assist totals. I suppose the fact that in those years his best teammate was Sleepy Floyd somehow is just irrelevant. Perhaps if Duncan was passing Floyd the ball, Floyd wouldnt suck so bad.

Most great big men struggle as passers early in their careers and then improve substantially. See Duncan, see Shaq, see Karl Malone, see Olajuwon.

Having watched the 2 extensively, Duncan did improve on his passing at a faster clip than Olajuwon although Hakeem at his peak was an equal to or better passer than Tim.

This is about the only area where Duncan really outshines Hakeem in terms of career skill set. However, it should also be noted that Olajuwon was a FAR superior outlet passer than Duncan.

These passes dont result in assists but trigger fast breaks. Olajuwon developed this skill in his college phi slamma jamma days when he was on a run and gun team and carried it over to the NBA. This enabled his team to get a lot more fast break teams than Duncan's ever did.

You can't have it both ways and expect to be seriously. On the one hand you call the guy a stat to diminish his unparalleled combination of steal and block totals but then chastise him for a low assist total early in his career. Do only assist stats matter for Hakeem in evaluating him?!

When I said I wasn't going to argue about Hakeem, that's what I meant. No means no, Kobe fan.

Put down the lotion and walk away from the Hakeem poster. If you're too dumb to realize a player can put up great defensive stats and be a horrible defender, you are a lost cause. Passing stats don't lie. Assists are assists. Especially for bigmen. Hakeem was a poor passer. No matter how many times you lube up, that will remain a fact.

A "Laker Fan" with a Houston IP address who constantly argues about Hakeem Olajuwon on a Spurs forum? You broke about four bandwagoning laws.

Again, Hakeem was older than Duncan is now when he peaked. Coming back in five years and then it'll be a discussion. You'll probably be a Cavalier Fan or a Trail Blazer Fan at that point but at least we know your Hakeem takes will remain weak.

[bobbyjoe]

Spurs won that series in five games.



Kinda like Kobe getting eaten alive by Paul Pierce after winning his "MVP." ROFL. Guess it's about time to hop on another bandwagon, eh?

Were you dropped on your head as a baby bandwagoner? Again, I never said Walton outplayed him. I also don't care what Bird jokingly told him. I watched the series and I saw Walton repeatedly dunk on Hakeem's azz and he was the Celtics' go-to defender against Hakeem.

I don't care if Walton averaged two points per game -- he punked Hakeem repeatedly in that series. Who knows which bandwagon you were on at the time but you should go back and watch the series and put down the calculator.



When I said I wasn't going to argue about Hakeem, that's what I meant. No means no, Kobe fan.

Put down the lotion and walk away from the Hakeem poster. If you're too dumb to realize a player can put up great defensive stats and be a horrible defender, you are a lost cause. Passing stats don't lie. Assists are assists. Especially for bigmen. Hakeem was a poor passer. No matter how many times you lube up, that will remain a fact.

A "Laker Fan" with a Houston IP address who constantly argues about Hakeem Olajuwon on a Spurs forum? You broke about four bandwagoning laws.

Again, Hakeem was older than Duncan is now when he peaked. Coming back in five years and then it'll be a discussion. You'll probably be a Cavalier Fan or a Trail Blazer Fan at that point but at least we know your Hakeem takes will remain weak.

LMFAO! Man, I guess you are still bitter from the beatdown in the WCF and the fact that the era is all over for the Spurs...

So to summarize, you can lead the league in rebounds, defensive rebound %, blocks, rank top 5 in steals, be voted to the All-Defensive Team year in and year out, be universally regarded as one of the top defensive big men in the history of the NBA and still be a "horrible defender"? And why? Oh, of course. Because Bill Walton scored 8 ppg on you in your 2nd year in the NBA. How obvious.

I don't blame you for "not wanting to argue" (and then of course responding to my post in about 15 minutes with a counterargument, getting riled up, and editing it for vulgar langauge). When you are overmatched in a debate and so out of bullets that your only arguments are illogical and representative of a poor knowledge of basketball, I'd agree that shutting it down and trying to go the personal attack route is clearly the best course of action.

BTW, if "passing stats dont like for big men. Hakeem was a poor passer" are both true, then Tim Duncan was only marginally better than poor because their career assist #'s are 3.0 vs. 2.5 (and of course Duncan's entire average career #'s will decline as he ages). BFD. The playoff #'s are 3.5 APG vs. 3.2 APG. WOW! Such superiority as a passer! (and remember, "assists are all that count for a big man").

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think kobe should never be anywhere near top15 of all time...2 choke jobs in the nba finals....

[ambchang]

We know for a fact that both Duncan and Robinsion could not even slow Shaq while he was in his prime.

Since you are so fond of stats (conclusively saying that Duncan is not great at anything due to his all-time standings in stats), could you also let me know the per series average of Shaq in 02 and 03? Thanks.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd be curious to see someone normalize Duncan's career numbers for pace and for the fact that Popovich keeps a tight reign on him during the regular season. Regardless, LMAO at the idea that Duncan isn't great at anything.

It's rich to hear Laker fan, a few pages back, argue that Duncan isn't a dominant defensive player by arguing that Duncan couldn't check Shaq and then using Russell as a point of comparison and noting that Russell couldn't check Wilt. Which is it?

The Stoudemire thing from 2005 as a basis to rip Duncan as a defender strikes me as relatively weak -- for at least the first 2 games of that series, Popovich played a hobbled Duncan (he had re-sprained an ankle in the 6th game against Seattle) on Quentin Richardson for long stretches. It's a bit like saying that it was somehow on Jason Kidd that Shaq had big games against the Nets in the '02 Finals.

I'm not going to weigh on the Olajuwon v. Walton argument raging above, but I will note that Walton shot a great percentage in that 86 Finals series (62.2%) and, relative to the minutes he played, was an extremely efficient rebounder. I have no way of knowing the context of how those numbers were compiled, since I don't have tape of the 86 Finals to go back and watch. Having watched a lot of Hakeem Olajuwon, I'm inclined to think that his numbers might be somewhat misleading, but that he was undoubtedly a fabulous defender and among the best defensive big men ever. Using "defensive numbers" to prove anything is an exercise in futility, ultimately -- I'm certain that Duncan is a better defender than his sheer numbers might suggest.

[Warlord23]

^^Kobe?? You have some serious homerism in you if you think Kobe can hold Duncan's jock strap. Call me when he wins a Finals series as the #1 option. Kobe is borderline top 20 all time. At this point the only difference between Kobe and Ewing, Barkley, Malone etc is that he was a sidekick on 3 le teams.

And Duncan is better than Bird, Shaq and Hakeem.

[bobbyjoe]

I'd be curious to see someone normalize Duncan's career numbers for pace and for the fact that Popovich keeps a tight reign on him during the regular season. Regardless, LMAO at the idea that Duncan isn't great at anything.

It's rich to hear Laker fan, a few pages back, argue that Duncan isn't a dominant defensive player by arguing that Duncan couldn't check Shaq and then using Russell as a point of comparison and noting that Russell couldn't check Wilt. Which is it?

The Stoudemire thing from 2005 as a basis to rip Duncan as a defender strikes me as relatively weak -- for at least the first 2 games of that series, Popovich played a hobbled Duncan (he had re-sprained an ankle in the 6th game against Seattle) on Quentin Richardson for long stretches. It's a bit like saying that it was somehow on Jason Kidd that Shaq had big games against the Nets in the '02 Finals.

I'm not going to weigh on the Olajuwon v. Walton argument raging above, but I will note that Walton shot a great percentage in that 86 Finals series (62.2%) and, relative to the minutes he played, was an extremely efficient rebounder. I have no way of knowing the context of how those numbers were compiled, since I don't have tape of the 86 Finals to go back and watch. Having watched a lot of Hakeem Olajuwon, I'm inclined to think that his numbers might be somewhat misleading, but that he was undoubtedly a fabulous defender and among the best defensive big men ever. Using "defensive numbers" to prove anything is an exercise in futility, ultimately -- I'm certain that Duncan is a better defender than his sheer numbers might suggest.

Sure, there are some guys in the NBA who have misleading defensive #'s. I would point to Allen Iverson, a guy who gambles a lot and gets a lot of steals but is overall not a great defender. Throw in John Stockton.

Camby fits the bill too. Great weak side shotblocker who isn't a strong one on one post defender.

However, throwing a guy like Olajuwon into this group is just crazy talk.

You have to look at how these #'s were ac ulated. In the case of AI and Stockton, it's very often gambling. In the case of a big man getting a ton of steals, it's usually due to long arms and quick hands. Name another big man who had monster steal #'s ac ulated from taking too many chances? , name another big man with monster steal #'s, period.

Anyone who watched Hakeem play saw the freakish athleticism and quick hands the guy had, not to mention the basket defending instincts. Not many players in the history of the league have won an NBA Championship with a key defensive block switching a pick and roll on a guard. Hakeem has.

When people also talk about defensive #'s being overrated, you are typically talking about a guy who stands out in one category, not in every defensive category possible. This is why the argument lacks merit. It's not just one or 2 or even 3 stats of defensive dominance. It's every single one possible.

Amongst the leaders in every key defensive statistic (rebounds, blocks, steals), won multiple DPOY awards, and was consistenly on the all-defensive teams.

And again in a very stacked era at the Center position defensively with Robinson, Eaton, Alonzo, and Dikembe Mutombo. DPOY and All-Defensive teams are subjective awards voted on by Coaches. If you are simply a stat padder like Iverson or Stockton , you wont make the All-Defensive team.

Olajuwon also held every Center he faced in the playoffs far below their typical output individually. Ewing had a pitiful series against him, Robinson was below his averages, and so was O'Neal. And of course Olajuwon's #'s were above his typical output in every single case, further putting dirt on the "argument" that he's not a top 10 all time guy.

The guy Olajuwon mainly guarded in the 86 Finals was Robert Parish who shot 42% from the field on 12 ppg (of course I guess maybe Parish had a dunk or 2 on Hakeem that series, which cons utes embarassing him in the eyes of some).

He hardly even covered Walton, who did most of his damage on that team and in that series on offensive rebound putbacks when teams came to help on certain guys like Larry Bird and Kevin Mchale and Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish.

It's not a debate. It's a joke. It's like saying Jordan sucked on offense because all he really was was a stat padder.

[bobbyjoe]

^^Kobe?? You have some serious homerism in you if you think Kobe can hold Duncan's jock strap. Call me when he wins a Finals series as the #1 option. Kobe is borderline top 20 all time. At this point the only difference between Kobe and Ewing, Barkley, Malone etc is that he was a sidekick on 3 le teams.

And Duncan is better than Bird, Shaq and Hakeem.

Kobe's teams are 4-2 lifetime against Duncan in the playoffs, with one of the losses coming when he was 19 years old in 1999.

Please explain how he can't hold Duncan's jockstrap.

Who was the better player in this year's WCF...Kobe or Duncan?

Comparing Kobe to Ewing or Malone is a joke. Super clutch vs. chokers in the playoffs.

The Celtics are winning this series because they have a better team, especially defensively.

Kobe is right there in the discussion with Duncan. Both are top 15 and Kobe is the guy who still is near his prime while Duncan is declining, so it's quite possible that he's clearly ahead of #21 when it's all said and done.

[ambchang]

Kobe's teams are 4-2 lifetime against Duncan in the playoffs, with one of the losses coming when he was 19 years old in 1999.

Please explain how he can't hold Duncan's jockstrap.

Kobe wasn't top dog in 5 of those 6 series.
Team success has to take into account teammates as well.
Head to head records are but a small sample size of accomplishments by any players.

Who was the better player in this year's WCF...Kobe or Duncan?

Who is the better player so far in this year's finals so far? Paul Pierce or Kobe Bryant?

What does that has to do with anything?

Comparing Kobe to Ewing or Malone is a joke. Super clutch vs. chokers in the playoffs.

The Celtics are winning this series because they have a better team, especially defensively.

Yes, let's talk about teammates and their contributions when Kobe Bryant is on the losing end. Kobe has made sure that everyone knows that the Lakers win because of him, but lose because of his teammates. At least you are consistent with his point of view.

Kobe is right there in the discussion with Duncan. Both are top 15 and Kobe is the guy who still is near his prime while Duncan is declining, so it's quite possible that he's clearly ahead of #21 when it's all said and done.

So wait, is Duncan declining and Kobe in his prime? So why did you bring up the head to head in this year's series, the series in which the scheduling was curiously brutal?

[Ockham]

I’m coming in a bit late on this, but here goes. I saw a few earlier posts that were disparaging the success of Chamberlain and Russell, as well as a post or two where it was claimed that Chamberlain’s early failures were due to poor teammates, and I wanted to respond.

First: I don’t think it would take long over at basketball-reference.com to see that there were plenty of good big men when Russell’s Celtics were winning and Wilt was dominating statistically (some easy names are Bellamy, Thurmond, and Reed). And let’s remember that you don’t have to be a 7-footer to beat a 7-footer, as evidenced by the success of people like Moses Malone, Willis Reed, and Dave Cowens, as well as more recent examples like Stoudamire and Mourning. So the fact that Wilt, at 7’0”, was often guarded by persons that were 6’9”- 6’11”, doesn’t negate his statistical accomplishments; and the fact that Russell was 6’9” doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have succeeded in an era where players are taller on average.

And second: Chamberlain had really good teammates in Philadelphia! Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer are hall-of-famers with multiple All-NBA and All-Star credits, and Chet Walker and Luke Jackson were All-Stars during their careers. It wasn’t as if Russell’s Celtics were beating Wilt and eleven hacks.

[Ockham]

My Top ten (in no particular order):

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Chamberlain
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Dr. J
9. Moses Malone
10. Larry Bird

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Tim Duncan
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[dbreiden83080]

Even the NBA players recognize Kobe for his greatness, but Spur fans refuse to... even after getting their asses whipped by Kobe. You never hear the NBA players list Duncan in their top five current players, and yet you guys have the audacity to rank him top 10 all-time! Come on.

If you think that Duncan is better than Bird, Hakeem, and Shaq, then you are in a short stack of narrow minded people. Duncan dont have the individual numbers to be considered one of the best.

Wow where to begin disecting this pile of dog ?? Duncan is older than Kobe and probably a bit past his prime, you have to look at what both have done in their careers up to this point. What the has Kobe done other than this past playoff series for you or anyone to put him there with Duncan?? Played Robin to Shaq's Batman and won 3 rings and ZERO finals MVP's. This puts him on a level playing field with Tim Duncan. If Duncan and Shaq played together for that stretch the Lakers would have won 70 games every year. Duncan has been THE BEST player and THE driving force on 4 Spurs le runs. Kobe has been that guy ZERO times and this finals will be no different as they are going to get beat. When Kobe Bryant has LED the Lakers to multiple rings you can come talk to me about him being anywhere near Tim Duncan. And for you to Say Shaq is much better than Duncan is another joke. Tim has won just as much with less around him. He a far more versatile player than Shaq ever was even in his prime. Take a look at Duncan and Shaq's resume and tell me where the he blows Timmy out of the water?? What because he has a higher PPG average. That is a facet of Timmy's unselfish play more than anything else and i can go right to Duncan's prowess on the all D teams year in and year out, an area Shaq is sorely lagging in. Same goes for Bird BTW. Right off the bat Duncan is a better rebounder and Bird is not even anywhere in Tim's ballpark on the defensive end. Tim is not top 10 though, yeah right get a clue.

[exstatic]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Pete Maravich
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Bill Russell
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

had to snub a few deserving guys. hard to judge because i wasnt alive to see alot of them play.

Maravich

Pistol Pete, as the prime player, led exactly one team to a winning record. He was a highly skillled hot dog.

[exstatic]

I didnt mean to hurt your feelings man, but I was just stating facts. I mean, Duncan is still probably the best that has ever to come out of SA... he's just not in the top 10 all-time.

Playoff numbers: All Time

Rebounds #6 1,975
Points #12 3,625
Blocks #4 415

The points don't wow you, but he's still active, and in a not so great playoff run, he added 343 points. If he does that next year, he's #7. He should finish in the top 5 of each of these categories. What does he do well? He's a great regular season player, and an All Time great post season player.

[dbreiden83080]

Playoff numbers: All Time

Rebounds #6 1,975
Points #12 3,625
Blocks #4 415

The points don't wow you, but he's still active, and in a not so great playoff run, he added 343 points. If he does that next year, he's #7. He should finish in the top 5 of each of these categories. What does he do well? He's a great regular season player, and an All Time great post season player.

+ 120 on that one

Duncan is one of the best Post-season players of all time, anyone who says otherwise is just being a hater.

[Lakers08Champs]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Bill Russell
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Michael Jordan
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Jerry West
10. Shaquille O'Neal