Patriotism

[FromWayDowntown]

IF your love of your country is conditional upon who is running it, then you don't love your country first.

I'd definitely agree with that.

Just a question, though: If Obama wins the election and withdraws troops from Iraq (to propose a hypothetical) will those who oppose that policy choice be unpatriotic?

[whottt]

And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

Right...if you die fighting for your country, you pretty much define Patriotism.


I didn't say you had to die supporting the reigning political parties platform to be a Patriot.


But if you go arouind disrespecting the country and saying you are embarrassed to be a part of it...you don't love your country.


There can be no love if there is no respect...and shame isn't love either.



And sitting on your ass using your cons utional rights isn't Patriotism either...get serious.

You're imagining a dispute between us on this issue. I agree with you completely that Pat Tillman is a patriot.

Cool...

I'm not politicizing it. My definition is not dependent upon an affiliation with any political party or any ideology other than one that believes in the principles upon which the country was founded; my definition of patriotism has nothing to do with politics.

Nor is mine...

I just think your definition of patriotism is too simplistic. Patriotism isn't a suicide pact;

I didn't say it was...

likewise, one isn't unpatriotic simply because he disagrees with policies enacted by the existing government when those policies are fundamentally at odds with the foundational principles of that nation.

If you hate the existing government more than you love your country, you aren't a Patriot. You are governed and ruled by your hate...not your love of country.

I absolutely agree with you that Pat Tillman is a fine example of a patriot.

Thank you...I thought he was a pretty good example myself...

[whottt]

I'd definitely agree with that.

Just a question, though: If Obama wins the election and withdraws troops from Iraq (to propose a hypothetical) will those who oppose that policy choice be unpatriotic?

Depends on how they do it...if they start saying they are ashamed to be Americans and threatening to leave the country...yeah, they will be.


Opposing the war isn't unpatriotic...but the manner in which you choose to do it damn sure can be. Not to mention the timing...not to mention those who are sitting beside you as you are opposing it.



I'm sorry but Michael Moore, Natalie Maine etc. are not Patriots.


As I've always said...my biggest problem with the modern Democrats, is that all they stand for...is opposing Bush...they hate him more than they love America. And they'll tread on the cons ution, they country, and everything it stands for in taking him down...and they'll rationalize their decision to at best be no better than he is until the cows come home...generally speaking of course.


Bush didn't have to get re-elected in 04...it's the Democrats fault that he was. Their failure as a party is why he was re-elected. It was a complete and total choke job by the Democrats...in what should have been a slam dunk win.



And BTW, concerning Obama...he's not a Patriot...I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to run for President...because there's no law that says you have to be a Patriot to be President, I'm not even saying he won't do a good job if he wins...I'm just saying, he's not a Patriot.

[Anti.Hero]

Patriotism is all about helping mother Earth, learning multiple languages to impress Europe, understanding other cultures beliefs (in killing you), sticking it to whitey, accepting the next generation of American culture, working harder to help your fellow man, and so on.

It is our DUTY to make it easy for our leaders to lead us.

[Supergirl]

I think that in a true democracy, patriotism has very little to do with whether you support the policies of the current leadership or not.

Under a more authoritarian government, patriotism becomes infused with nationalism, to the point where the two are indistinguishable. Much of what I hear people defining as "patriotism" on this board is actually nationalism - "devotion and loyalty to one's own nation"; patriotism is different.

Patriotism, in a true democracy (we can debate in another thread whether we have one or not), is about trusting that regardless of whether you agree or disagree with individual policy decisions of the current leadership, the government/country is ultimately going to be OK in the end. Things swing to the right, to the left, and back again, but the very system of government itself has enough checks and balances to keep things in balance.

By this definition, I am sometimes a patriot, and some days I am not. It depends on my mood, and how cynical I am feeling.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

You do not say I will leave the country, as if you are embarrassed to be a part of it, regardless of who the leader is, you are not embarrassed to be a part of it, you do not burn flags, you do not badmouth it's history with biased venom and bile...you cannot do those things and claim to be Patriotic. If you do those things and think you are being Patriotic, you are wrong.


There are a great many people that think they are Patriots, that aren't...because there aren't very many true Patriots left, on either side of the line.

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist

[scott]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

I'll disagree and say that true patriotism is not merely going down with the proverbial ship, but rather doing all you can to prevent the ship from going down to start with, out of that same love for your country. Along the lines of the same analogy, the loyalty is towards the ship, not the captain.

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race? In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

[PixelPusher]

I'll disagree and say that true patriotism is not merely going down with the proverbial ship, but rather doing all you can to prevent the ship from going down to start with, out of that same love for your country. Along the lines of the same analogy, the loyalty is towards the ship, not the captain.

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race? In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

Why should patriotism be viewed as a virtue in the first place? Is street gang loyalty a virtue?

Patriotism is the just the latest and greatest brand of tribalism practiced by humanity in the nation-state era of history. If it does mean something more nuanced and high-minded (i.e. the 'idea' of America) than mere geographical tribalism to you, FWD, Supergirl, etc. - then I think we need a new term for it other than "patriotism".

[smeagol]

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist

I don't think he said that.

[smeagol]

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race?

No

[whottt]

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race?

If your loyalty is to the human race over your country then you aren't a true patriot...at least not until we master interplanetary travel.

In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

No...there are very few things that are always a virtue...depends on the situation.

[whottt]

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist

Link?


Seriously...I hear a lot of stupid things on this forum, but this idea that being critical of your government and trashing your country in the process is patriotism is just about the stupidest ing thing I've ever heard...



I mean Usama Bin Laden es about the US Govt too, war for oil, etc...so does just about every wannabe intellectual in every corner of the globe...would you define them as loving this country?


ing about this country doesn't make you a patriot.......




And you inferred the same thing from my comments as FWDT...that because I said a Patriot is a willing to go down with his country right or wrong, that I meant they support any and all wars....


That's not what I said...I said a Patriot doesn't leave his country(without a damn good reason), but he also generally doesn't lead it(or support those that do) into asskissing other countries(depending on the ultimate goals of said asskissking).


All those Germans that left Germany for good as Hitler came to power...that saw the writing on the wall before it happened...those weren't Patriots. I don't give a what their views on Nazism were. Were the Nazis? Yeah....they were patriots(the German ones were anyway, the ones that didn't flee, and yes that includes Hitler).



Were the Vichy French? No...Were the French resistance? Definitely.




Back to Supergirl's comments on Nationalism VS Patriotism...I'd say it's more like nearly all Nationalists are Patriots, but not all Patriots are Nationalists.

[SRJ]

In the specific case of the USA, patriotism loses its appeal if a patriot supports ideals which run counter to those expressed in our founding do ents.

I'm not trying to be Mr. Superior American, and I'm not saying our patriotism trumps England's, Russia's, China's, fill in the blank; But the United States doesn't have thousands of years of history like many other nations. The population of the American colonies were much more heterogenous than the European powers or China. There was no long-standing common culture here, and with that mingling of blood and lack of a national heritage, libertarianism was born. Limited government, self-reliance, no oppressive ins utions, ...these were the principles which united a diverse populace. Today's America bears little resemblance to the America of 1790.

It's hard to feel the same patriotic stirrings Paine and Henry did when King George, now personified as the Internal Revenue Service, steals our wages. It's hard to carry the banner of Benjamin Franklin when we demand free drugs/schools/health care/food/clothing/child care/job training/etc from our elected officials. It's hard to want to take the fight to our enemies, as Washington did, when we are assured by the intelligencia that America is threatened by no one and, what's more, our boots on the ground must fight with one hand bound, so that war be more humane.

We are spineless, we are unprincipled, we are lazy, and to achieve our ends we will use every tactic imaginable. In short, we are a bas ization of America.

[Marcus Bryant]

Patriotism is love of country. Humanism is love of humanity.

[BradLohaus]

And I would say that's pretty far away from the definition of Patriotism...you have to really just completely pull an entirely new definition out of your ass with no basis in the meaning of the word Patriotism for that to be what you define as Patriotism.


I'm not saying I don't understand your point, I'm not saying you are wrong to do it...but calling that Patriotism, is like saying a taking a bath is taking a dump.

Obviously loving your country is patriotism (but you can love your country and hate your government - wasn't that basically the case with the Founding Fathers?) And also, obviously, fighting and dying in defense of your people is the highest form of patriotism.

But most people don't fight and die in wars. So what then? How do you best love and support your country? I say it's by being as critical as possible of the people running it. How else can you best help your country? Having asked that question, I guess one could say that giving to charity and feeding the poor is patriotism.

So I'll amend my definition: Aside from the highest form of patriotism - being willing to die for your people - patriotism is not trusting the government and helping the least among us. Kind of reminds you of somebody famous, doesn't it?

And I consider myself to be very much a nationalist; it's sad to see that term become a bad word, and to see people run away from it. I just see it as meaning sovereignty, but sadly, it's become synonymous with jingoism.

[cant w8 4 2012]

How about you shut the up and start your own thread then. , the thread starter asks a question and then you chime in with that and have the nerve to say "serious answers, please".

Here's my serious answer........... you, God hates you.

white man

[cant w8 4 2012]

what is patriotism anymore? I'm all bout brotherhood.in this world,god sees no borders

[Spurminator]

In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

I think that's why we get so many (and such broad) definitions of patriotism, because for whatever reason people are afraid to agree to a meaning that doesn't include them.

There's nothing wrong with not being a patriot.

I'm not a patriot and I'm not going to twist the definition so I can call myself one.