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  1. #51
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Can we call him 'Murderer of the Year' and be done with it?
    I'll go along with Vigilante, but not murderer.

  2. #52
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,...820028,00.html

    Looking Kindly on Vigilante Justice

    By Nathan Thornburgh

    The 911 tape offered up a few clues that Joe Horn had every intention of killing the men who were breaking into the house next door. For example, there was that time, six minutes into the phone call, when he told the dispatcher, "I'm gonna kill 'em."

    And "kill 'em" he did, stepping outside his house to shoot the men with three shotgun blasts in the back as they retreated across his lawn with a bag of stolen goods from next door. In today's overheated debate about gun rights, this marksmanship made Horn, 62, a hero to many. When a small group came out to his home in Pasadena, Texas, to protest the killings, they were shouted down and run off by a far larger group of bikers and residents yelling "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" as if they were on the set of The Jerry Springer Show. Grand juries in Texas are sealed affairs, so no one really knows what goes on in their deliberations. But on Monday, a Harris County grand jury refused to indict Horn for any crimes related to the November 2007 shooting. It's the kind of decision that makes you wonder if the jurors themselves were chanting "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" during deliberations. The decision was celebrated by Horn's defenders, of course. More than anything, though, it was called a victory for the Castle Doctrine.

    The Castle Doctrine is a right-to-defend-yourself law that has been sweeping the country: about half the states have some version of the law, most passed within the past three years. Texas passed its version last fall. It is popular in part because it's a hybrid of two simple and deeply American concepts: your home is your castle, and you have a right to defend yourself and your property. The laws have different details and sometimes different names from place to place (some states go for a more macho name — Stand Your Ground — while others prefer the snarkier Make My Day).

    The flavor of the law basically shifts the burden of proving self-defense from the shooter to the state. In places like Mississippi and Texas, the law says that citizens have no duty to retreat from any confrontation anywhere when threatened; milder versions exist in states like Connecticut and Colorado, where they cover confrontations only in homes or businesses. That's the version that will go into effect in Ohio in September. Democratic governor Ted Strickland signed the bill in June, against the wishes of a number of state law-enforcement groups.

    In Ohio as elsewhere, cops and prosecutors attack the law as superfluous at best: judges and juries rarely convict people for attacking intruders, and similar statutes have been on the books for decades in many places. Texas, for example, has a lot of other laws that protect homeowners in similar situations, some on the books, some not. As Shannon Edmonds, a lobbyist for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association, put it: "There's an unwritten rule in Texas courthouses: It ain't against the law to kill a son of a ." Horn clearly thought the Castle Doctrine applied. He brought it up on the phone with the 911 dispatcher. "The laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it and I know it," he said.

    The passage of new Castle Doctrine bills goes over well with voters, politicians and people like Horn because of a wide perception that criminals are still given far too many rights at the expense of law-abiding (and gun-owning) citizens. As Horn said in his 911 call, he wasn't going to let those robbers get away. For many, the recent Supreme Court decision striking down Washington's gun ban was seen as a rare respite from a long string of legal attacks on the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms. The Horn decision was hailed as another rare victory.

    But whether it was the Castle Doctrine or a prior Texas law that most influenced its decision, the case may be a Pyrrhic victory for gun-rights advocates. As these laws spread across the country, the public will want to know what effect they'll have in their communities. Will they make people more secure? Or will they create some kind of dystopic Deadwood, where the law lands on the side of those who shoot first? The laws are written so vaguely that the answer lies largely in the interpretation. It's up to juries to set appropriate boundaries — hopefully ones that favor precedent, instead of completely rewriting the rulebook on lethal confrontations.

    The Castle Doctrine was also invoked in a shooting a month ago 250 miles away from the Horn incident, in Kaufman County, Texas. An elderly man picked up a gun and shot — out his front window — at an "intruder" who turned out to be his 15-year-old neighbor, who was crossing his lawn at night with a friend. The boy survived, but as his friend's mother drove them to the hospital, they were hit by a drunk driver, killing the mother and leaving both boys with even more injuries. The car accident wasn't the old man's fault; the shooting most definitely was. County law-enforcement officials initially declined to press charges, citing the Castle Doctrine. Ultimately, they recommended the case to a grand jury, which did, in fact, indict him.

    This all makes for terrible p.r. for Texas as well. The state has long bristled at its gun-nut reputation. Texans would like the world to see them as they see themselves — as responsible gun owners, not itchy-fingered vigilantes. Cases like the Kaufman County shooting don't help.

    In late May, I finished a gun-safety course in Nevada in order to get my multistate concealed weapons permit. The instructional component is basically a PowerPoint presentation illustrated with graphic pictures and a video of what can happen to you and your flesh if you mishandle a firearm — something like An Inconvenient Truth for the NRA crowd. What really caught my attention, though, was an off-the-curriculum discussion about when I should use the weapon I would have the right to carry. "Bare fear doesn't justify self-defense," the instructor told me. "Only reasonable fear." This man, a gun dealer whose whole Weltanschauung seemed largely based on his right to defend himself with lethal force if need be, was very clear on the matter: you can't go blasting away at things that go bump in the night.

    If the Castle Doctrine were interpreted with the kind of sobriety and restraint espoused by my instructor (and responsible gun owners), it would be a good law. But by celebrating its most overreaching interpretations, those who make a hero out of Joe Horn will ultimately only succeed in ensuring that it isn't.

  3. #53
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    criminals.

    Did they break into the house and steal ? Yes.
    Did they try and flee when accosted? Yes.

    2 dead criminals. The world weeps.

  4. #54
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    criminals.

    Did they break into the house and steal ? Yes.
    Did they try and flee when accosted? Yes.

    2 dead criminals. The world weeps.
    I applaud.

    The problem is, criminals will break the law and at the same time expect it to protect them. I say no ing way when they are caught in the act. If they get away, then later caught, then the legal system and the burden of proof is now on the accuser.

    Look at what we have. Law enforcement in most places cannot shoot a fleeing suspect. These criminals probaly thought the law would protect them as long as they were running away.

    I say they deserve to be dead. I hope more people start killing burglers.

  5. #55
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    I say they deserve to be dead. I hope more people start killing burglers.
    Just curious WC (or DR), do you feel the same way about shoplifters?

  6. #56
    Murdering Prostitutes Findog's Avatar
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    The dude's name is Joe Horn? I went to the very last page of the thread, I was like "When did that football player shoot somebody?"

  7. #57
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    criminals.

    Did they break into the house and steal ? Yes.
    Did they try and flee when accosted? Yes.
    Did we break Iraq? Yes...
    Did we accost million of Iraqis? Yes
    Did millions more flee to slums in Iran, Jordan, and other parts of the M.E.? Yes

    Are we criminals?

  8. #58
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Just curious WC (or DR), do you feel the same way about shoplifters?
    It depends on the maturity of the shoplifter. Kids will be kids. However, a shop lifter is a thief. I have stated this at least twice now. I am for the death penalty imposed against individuals who commit first degree crimes against others.

    I am ing tired of the number of evil people we have in our nation today, and I want to see them permenantly removed from society. If the knowledge the death penalty applies, and they still commit the crime. They deserve to die.

  9. #59
    It's In The Numbers 1369's Avatar
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    Did we break Iraq? Yes...
    Did we accost million of Iraqis? Yes
    Did millions more flee to slums in Iran, Jordan, and other parts of the M.E.? Yes

    Are we criminals?
    You really need to consider the Icy Hot patch after that stretch.

  10. #60
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    You really need to consider the Icy Hot patch after that stretch.
    I wonder if 1 million dead Iraqis consider this a stretch?

  11. #61
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    It depends on the maturity of the shoplifter. Kids will be kids. However, a shop lifter is a thief. I have stated this at least twice now. I am for the death penalty imposed against individuals who commit first degree crimes against others.

    I am ing tired of the number of evil people we have in our nation today, and I want to see them permenantly removed from society. If the knowledge the death penalty applies, and they still commit the crime. They deserve to die.
    One thing is to want the death penalty after due process (don't personally agree, but I respect your opinion), and a very different one is to have a person become policeman, judge and executioner all in one.
    The problem with cases like these is not these two criminals, who were criminals, and got what they deserved. The problem is when one of these judge dredd's with a shotgun has an extra cup of wine on them, and decides that the two new gardeners are robbers. Or that the two Jehovah witnesses 'menacingly stepped into my property'. We're asking these people to recognize, interpret and execute the law, when they're no policeman, no lawyers and no judges.
    A lapse of judgment can ruin a family or more forever. This is really why we evolved from the wild wild west and vigilante justice into a civilized society.

  12. #62
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    It depends on the maturity of the shoplifter. Kids will be kids. However, a shop lifter is a thief. I have stated this at least twice now. I am for the death penalty imposed against individuals who commit first degree crimes against others.

    I am ing tired of the number of evil people we have in our nation today, and I want to see them permenantly removed from society. If the knowledge the death penalty applies, and they still commit the crime. They deserve to die.
    Wow, even under Sharia Law they only lose a hand. And you want them dead.

  13. #63
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Wow, even under Sharia Law they only lose a hand. And you want them dead.
    I'm surprised that Wild Cobra isn't supporting the idea of a death penalty for those who might be liberals.

  14. #64
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    human life = property. I can now teach my son that life really doesn't have much value anymore. In fact a the value of life = my 42 inch flat screen.. Screw the home owners insurance that I have I'm going to blow those b*tches up!

  15. #65
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that Wild Cobra isn't supporting the idea of a death penalty for those who might be liberals.
    Don't forget WC equates treason to whether a person can actually justify their criticism of Bush.

  16. #66
    Pass The Brew IceColdBrewski's Avatar
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    Score one for the good guys.

    Can't say I would've shot them in the back, but I definitely woulda put some buckshot in their asses to make sure they'd never consider returning.

  17. #67
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Just curious WC (or DR), do you feel the same way about shoplifters?
    No. Not at all.

    Do people live inside WalMart?

    Also, do shoplifters have to break-in to get into WalMart?

    (you get my point)

  18. #68
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Did we break Iraq? Yes...
    Did we accost million of Iraqis? Yes
    Did millions more flee to slums in Iran, Jordan, and other parts of the M.E.? Yes

    Are we criminals?

  19. #69
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    No. Not at all.

    Do people live inside WalMart?

    Also, do shoplifters have to break-in to get into WalMart?

    (you get my point)
    Sure, I asked because based on your previous post;
    criminals.

    Did they break into the house and steal ? Yes.
    Did they try and flee when accosted? Yes.

    2 dead criminals. The world weeps.
    the difference is minimal, and it certainly didn't require a leap in logic to think that you may have felt the same about shoplifters.
    Last edited by jochhejaam; 07-19-2008 at 01:04 PM.

  20. #70
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    I would have probably done the same. If I see some dude running out with a sack of loot from my neighbor's window, I'm guessing they have thousands of dollars worth of his . A couple thousand is a lot of money to most people who work for a living. None of that property is coming back unless the burglar is stopped right at the spot. If the cops find him a couple of days later after he's pawned my neighbor's stuff, then my neighbor is ed. His property is worth way more than the life of someone who would break into a person's house to loot it.

    I would give a burglar the chance to freeze and wait for the police, but if he continued with my neighbor's belongings, I'd shoot, and shoot to kill if he's armed.

  21. #71
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    I would have probably done the same. If I see some dude running out with a sack of loot from my neighbor's window, I'm guessing they have thousands of dollars worth of his . A couple thousand is a lot of money to most people who work for a living. None of that property is coming back unless the burglar is stopped right at the spot. If the cops find him a couple of days later after he's pawned my neighbor's stuff, then my neighbor is ed. His property is worth way more than the life of someone who would break into a person's house to loot it.

    I would give a burglar the chance to freeze and wait for the police, but if he continued with my neighbor's belongings, I'd shoot, and shoot to kill.
    No you wouldn't, not if it meant you going to prison for murder, which is what should have happened to Horn.

  22. #72
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    No you wouldn't, not if it meant you going to prison for murder, which is what should have happened to Horn.
    I meant to write shoot to kill if the guy is armed, and edited my post after you quoted it.

    To get back on topic, I absolutely would, and I would shoot to kill if the guy is clearly armed (you never know if he's going to turn around and start shooting at you as he flees). If he's unarmed, I might fire a warning shot if he's in the open.

  23. #73
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I'd buy Joe Horn a beer. Criminals put themselves in a bad position. Sucks for them.

  24. #74
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    I wish some illegal argentinian manu fans would kickdoor on me

  25. #75
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I wish some illegal argentinian manu fans would kickdoor on me
    LOL

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