VSpan looked good for Greece

[ThunderStix®]

This is stupid. He is one of quickest guards ever from Europe and he is a very good shooter. Only reason he have problem with 3 point shots in Rockets is because he force to sit for 3 games then get to come to game off bench at end of game then if miss one shot get benched again.

Hey KBP, After watching some clips of V-Span, I have take back a lot the stuff I said about him. He's pretty impressive.

Is this that clip you were talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[DaDakota]

Hey KBP, After watching some clips of V-Span, I have take back a lot the stuff I said about him. He's pretty impressive.

Is this that clip you were talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

LMAO....that was well played my man.

DD

[nil.ball]

damn just got rick rolled! WARNING!

[DPG21920]

I'm not pissed at Vsuck because he quit........ I'm not even mad at him, I'm just not going to let a dumbass thread that blames JVG for Vsucks failures. Vsuck is a man, he needs to be held accountable. I'm here to speak the damn truth and the truth is, that Vsuck just didn't want to be a NBA baller......he was a player that wasn't willing to put in work, and wasn't willing to pay his dues. So it's completely stupid to blame JVG, because Vsuck was a home sick mental weakling.

Again, I'm not mad at Vsuck, and although I do think that he quit (which he did and you can't even make a legit argument against that) I'm glad he played for the team, because like you said, we turned Vsuck into Luis Scola.....a true professional and NBA baller.

Obviously nothing is 100%, but JVG played a huge role in the Spanoulis events. Just like Pop did with Beno. Do you not think Beno playing as he does on the Kings would help the Spurs? Of course it would, it would give the Spurs the best pair of point guards in the league. But Pop messed up and so did Beno, it just did not work out. Same with Spanoulis and JVG.

[ThunderStix®]

LMAO....that was well played my man.

DD

Thanks.

[leemajors]

JVG coached for 4 years with the Rockets and only had 2 50 win seasons and never got them out of the first round. Avery on the other hand coached 3 years with the Mavs and had 2 60+ win seasons and one 50+ win season. He also lead them to a finals. So what is your point that makes JVG so great?

so, basically what you're saying is that JVG and Avery both have one finals appearance. nice point.

[DPG21920]

so, basically what you're saying is that JVG and Avery both have one finals appearance. nice point.

No, I am saying that in the same time frame that JVG coached Houston he had no finals appearances and Avery had one. Avery also had no season in which he did not win 50+ games and he also had two 60+ win seasons. JVG never got Houston out of the first round, did not make the playoffs one year and only won 50+ games twice.

It is even worse if you take someone like Avery who only coached 3 years and he has a the same amount of finals experience as a coach that has coached since 1995-1996. JVG since going to that finals with the Knicks, has only gotten out of the first round once.

[Tmac&Luther]

The facts hurt don't they. You can not argue numbers. JVG clearly was out coached by Avery in the same window of time. Not even close.

Dallas Roster year they went to the finals:

1 Dirk Nowitzki F 6-11 237 27 81 81 38.1 9.3
2 Jason Terry G 6-2 176 28 80 80 35.0 6.5 13.7
3 Josh Howard F-G 6-7 210 25 59 58 32.5 5.9 12.6
4 Jerry Stackhouse G-F 6-6 218 31 55 11 27.7 4.4 11.0
5 Marquis Daniels G-F 6-6 200 25 62 29 28.5 4.0 8.3
6 Devin Harris G 6-3 185 22 56 4 22.8 3.4 7.2
7 Keith Van Horn F 6-10 220 30 53 0 20.6 3.1 7.3
8 Erick Dampier C-F 6-11 265 30 82 36 23.6 2.1 4.2
9 Adrian Griffin G-F 6-5 217 31 52 45 23.9 1.9 3.9
10 Doug Christie G-F 6-6 200 35 7 7 26.4 1.3 3.7
11 Rawle Marshall G-F 6-9 190 23 23 9 10.5 1.0 2.6
12 Pavel Podkolzin C 7-5 260 21 1 0 18.0 0.0 2.0
13 Josh Powell F 6-9 225 23 37 2 11.6 1.0 2.2
14 DeSagana Diop C 7-0 300 24 81 45 18.6 0.9 1.9
15 Darrell Armstrong G 6-0 170 37 62 2 10.0 0.7 2.1
16 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga

That is super stacked...Having a young Devin Harris, Dampier as the center along with Diop and Mbenga, then having Keith Van Horn. You realize that your lame excuses about Avery having a "stacked team" just flew out the window.

Houston's Roster that same year:

1 Yao Ming C 7-6 310 25 57 57 1949 467 900
2 Tracy McGrady F 6-8 210 26 47 47 1745 410 1011
3 Juwan Howard F-C 6-9 240 32 80 80 2537 394 859
4 Rafer Alston G 6-2 171 29 63 63 2431 280 738
5 Luther Head G 6-3 185 23 80 27 2310 254 630
6 David Wesley G 6-0 190 35 71 59 2372 226 561
7 Stromile Swift F 6-9 225 26 66 5 1344 225 458
8 Keith Bogans G-F 6-5 215 25 33 22 1064 101 256
9 Derek Anderson G 6-5 194 31 20 8 582 68 173
10 Dikembe Mutombo C 7-2 245 39 64 23 955 50
11 Chuck Hayes F 6-6 240 22 40 0 535 59 105
12 Ryan Bowen F 6-7 215 30 68 19 652 37 124
13 Jon Barry G 6-4 195 36 20 0 342 25 65 .385
14 Lonny Baxter F 6-8 260 27 23 0 281 33 72
15 Moochie Norris G 6-1 175 32 29 0 241 26 65
16 Rick Brunson G 6-4 190 33 23 0 215 16 46
17 Richie Frahm G 6-5 210 28 8 0 117 15 35
18 John Lucas G 5-11 165 23 13 0 107 14 36 .389
19 Stephen Graham G 6-6 215 23 6 0 38 6 16
20 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 275 20 4 0 12 2 7
21 Josh Davis

This roster is just as manageable as the Mavs. In fact I would say that Yao/McGrady > Dirk/Howard. You can take into consideration the injuries that year, but what about next year? You add Bonzi and Battier and still lose in the first round.

The Mavs won 67 games the next year and only added Devean George. So don't give me your opinion, I know the facts.

Your on crack if you think that roster was as good as the Mavs.....a young Yao and a Tmac playing his first year as a Houston Rocket vs. a stacked Mavs team. Please stop the bullcrap....who were heavy favorites (and for good reason) in that series. You are honestly going to call out my bball knowledge and then post crap like that.

[Tmac&Luther]

Yep VSpan quit, just like JVG when he quit on the Knicks.

JVG was a crap coach for Houston, once we got Tmac, he was good for Francis and Mobley, but horrible for a Tmac led team.

Up 2-0 in the first round twice and can't bring the team home....give me a break.

If all VSpan did was get JVG fired then he did an excellent job in Houston, but he did more than that, he got us Scola too.

So Vspan is +2 in my book.

DD

First of all your on crack if you think Vsuck got JVG fired........JVG wasn't even fired, it was just a mutual agreement to move on and the Rockets management did not hold JVG responsible for the fact that Vsuck had sand stuck in his panties.

Second, if you honestly think that a Francis lead Rockets team + Mobley was good for this city you are a idiot. (honestly I had more respect for you before this thread, but now I can easily see why you are laughed at on clutchfans with posts like this) So you honestly think JVG was better suited and a better coach with Francis and his gay friend Mobley. They were the street ball circus/undisciplined players I was talking about. JVG dumping their ass for Tmac is one of the big reasons why Houston is where they're at today....legit contenders

You can dog JVG for being up 2-0, but currently that's more than you can say about any other recent coach in recent years.... Not to mention the fact that he should've won the Dallas series and even Tim Donaghy admitted he was told to call a foul on Yao every time Yao set a screen...which turned the series around after Houston almost upset a heavily favored Dallas.

But nevermind all this bullcrap....

Do you know what I love about all your posts and all the times you quote my posts?

It's the fact that everytime I point out how your a giant idiot, while pointing out all the times JVG was right about the players he threw into the dog house (Francis, Wells, Swift, and Vsuck) you don't even comment on it......you aviod the entire damn thing. (because you know I'm dead on and right) it honestly makes me laugh my ass off, because you have no answer for it.........you are met straight up on these examples and can't possibly give a rebuttal, because even after JVG cut or got on to these fools, no other NBA coach had success with them.

Again...

Francis
Swift
Wells
and
Vsuck

the players that landed in JVG's dog house......what the are they doing now? yet, you continue to hide behind your B.S. crap "JVG sucks" and refuse to answer the damn question......let me guess, JVG is the sole reason for all of these player's failures stop being a dumbass tool and hold these guy's responsible for their own damn career. You must be one of those....."mommy yelled at me, it's the reason why I wet my pants" kinda people huh?

[The Third Man]

No, I am saying that in the same time frame that JVG coached Houston he had no finals appearances and Avery had one. Avery also had no season in which he did not win 50+ games and he also had two 60+ win seasons. JVG never got Houston out of the first round, did not make the playoffs one year and only won 50+ games twice.

It is even worse if you take someone like Avery who only coached 3 years and he has a the same amount of finals experience as a coach that has coached since 1995-1996. JVG since going to that finals with the Knicks, has only gotten out of the first round once.

Wait, aren't you the sophisticated basketball fan who "watches every game of every team?" Maybe I am confusing you with someone else. Your argument is silly. You are comparing Avery and Van Gundy's coaching ability and not, you know, looking at their respective rosters when they were coaching. It's like saying Barry Switzer was a better NFL coach than Don Shula because one guy won the Super Bowl and the other missed the playoffs a lot at the end. Come on, dude. Ryan Bowen, David Wesley, Luther Head and Jon Barry got huge minutes in their 2006 playoff series with the Mavs. It wasn't some kind of incredible coaching inspiration of Avery's that got the *favored* Mavericks past the Rockets in seven games. Until last year, the Mavericks had a deeper, more talented roster than almost every team in the league every year Johnson was the coach. They have also been pretty damn healthy, too. The only series that the Rockets lost in which they were the favorites was in the '07 series against the Jazz and it's not like they were a 1 seed losing to an 8 seed. I think both coaches are solid, but flawed, but in this sample size one guy got the keys to the Porsche and the other got to drive a Honda Civic.

[Bruno]

Germany's guards are really bad. It's not a surprise to see Spanoulis, who is a good player, doing well against them.

[DPG21920]

Your on crack if you think that roster was as good as the Mavs.....a young Yao and a Tmac playing his first year as a Houston Rocket vs. a stacked Mavs team. Please stop the bullcrap....who were heavy favorites (and for good reason) in that series. You are honestly going to call out my bball knowledge and then post crap like that.

You see how I actually post quantifiable evidence: (win/loss records, coaching records...) and you post nothing but opinions and call people idiots. That right there shows you do not know what you are talking about. How can you look at those two rosters and still call the Mavs stacked. They had one consistent All-Star (Dirk). The Rockets had 2(T-Mac and Yao).

The Mavs had Dampier and Diop for a center, the Rockets had an experienced Mutombo and Yao. Neither team had great point guards. The Mavs had Terry who sucked, which is why he lost his starting job to a younger Devin Harris, who was then traded because they could not win with him.

Last time I checked, Alston was still there. Do not discredit what Avery did by saying he had a stacked team. Houston was just as good on paper, but Avery had them playing inspired ball. Both teams had talented, but not stacked rosters.

Wait, aren't you the sophisticated basketball fan who "watches every game of every team?" Maybe I am confusing you with someone else. Your argument is silly. You are comparing Avery and Van Gundy's coaching ability and not, you know, looking at their respective rosters when they were coaching. It's like saying Barry Switzer was a better NFL coach than Don Shula because one guy won the Super Bowl and the other missed the playoffs a lot at the end. Come on, dude. Ryan Bowen, David Wesley, Luther Head and Jon Barry got huge minutes in their 2006 playoff series with the Mavs. It wasn't some kind of incredible coaching inspiration of Avery's that got the *favored* Mavericks past the Rockets in seven games. Until last year, the Mavericks had a deeper, more talented roster than almost every team in the league every year Johnson was the coach. They have also been pretty damn healthy, too. The only series that the Rockets lost in which they were the favorites was in the '07 series against the Jazz and it's not like they were a 1 seed losing to an 8 seed. I think both coaches are solid, but flawed, but in this sample size one guy got the keys to the Porsche and the other got to drive a Honda Civic.

I watch almost every game for every team, not all of them. The whole Avery argument was not to say that he was a better coach, if you read all of the posts, take them in the context they were written, you will see it was in response to "How many losing seasons has Jeff Van Gundy had as a head coach in the NBA? To say he's a horrible coach is just flat out stupid and misinformed".

My statement was sort of in agreement with what you said. You can not just look at the win/loss and finals experience as the judge on if someone is a good coach or not. Although, it is convenient to just flat out ignore all the FACTS AND QUANTIFIABLE numbers that point to Avery being a more winning coach, even though the sample size is smaller than JVG, but you have to start somewhere. It is not like he only coached one year. He coached 3 and only did not win 60+ one time.

To say JVG only started losing later on is just false, he got to the finals only once in his entire career. Once again here is where my factual knowledge of the game, combined with some savvy research shows that in fact JVG has not fared well for the MAJORITY of his career in the post season. He had done better than many but, to try and act like he is an elite coach is just false. He is good and that is it. To compare him to Shula is just wrong. Avery is not Switzer and JVG is definitely not Shula. Shula is a champion and Hall-of-Fame coach. JVG had only been to the finals ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Not only that, more than half of his career has been a loss in the first round of the playoffs. He started coaching in 1995-1996 and made it to the finals in 1998-1999. After that he coached 7 more years and only made it out of the first round one time (that was they year after he made the finals). So, in fact, it is not the minority part of his career he has not been able to get it done in the post season, it is the MAJORITY. Only for the first 4 years of his career was he successful in the playoffs (1995-1999) (which when you compare rosters and such to Avery in the same time frame, Avery still blows him out of the water statistically) and then from 2000-2007 it was a string of one and dones with manageable rosters.

Once again, I do not see how you can look at the Mavs roster with one all-star compared to Houston's two and look at the center position which is the most important position in the NBA (followed closely by point guard) in which Houston had a dominant player compared to the Mavs having nothing in comparison and then both teams having average point guards. "Stacked teams" usually have one player in the most dominating position(s) center/pg and the Mavs had neither.

[DPG21920]

Germany's guards are really bad. It's not a surprise to see Spanoulis, who is a good player, doing well against them.

Spain's guards were good and he did well against them. He ended up having some bad shots/turnovers because his team was playing bad and in a hole, but he was more than holding his own.

[RonMexico]

Who even cares what kind of coach JVG is? He's hilarious as an analyst and much better in the Draft coverage than Stephen A. Smith could ever have been.

No one will beat the Snapper, Walton, Costas team, however.

[DPG21920]

Who even cares what kind of coach JVG is? He's hilarious as an analyst and much better in the Draft coverage than Stephen A. Smith could ever have been.

No one will beat the Snapper, Walton, Costas team, however.

Agreed. JVG is announcing gold.

[DPG21920]

Have you ever coached or managed people? I am asking seriously. There is no "universal" method to coaching. All players are different. Some respond to hard ass coaches and some do not. Being a good coach is being consistent in your message of what you are looking for and then getting the most out of your players. You want to push players and challenge them, but you have to have "touch" or finesse as well. Certain players you can push harder than others.

If you can point out at all where I have said he WAS a good NBA player, please post it.

I have clearly stated that you can not judge him by his one year with the Rockets and that he has the basketball skill to be serviceable in the NBA. I have also said that he is better skill-wise than Rafer in every single category of the game. With the exception of ball-handling, maybe.

Well lets agree to disagree. I am not sure if Spanoulis will ever come back to the NBA, but if he does I am sure he will play well. There are plenty of teams that would welcome him.

Despite all the hilarity that has ensued, these are the main points I was trying to make.

The Rocket fans have said some terribly wrong things that I had to disprove along the way (especially the Switzer and Shula comment, that was hilarious considering they have both won superbowls and neither Avery or JVG have won les), but it is just their opinion I guess. Nothing wrong with that.

[hater]

Germany's guards are really bad. It's not a surprise to see Spanoulis, who is a good player, doing well against them.

so you were surprised to see him do well vs. Spain's guards?

[DaDakota]

JVG was a horrible coach for Houston, he let players like Kelana Azubuike go to keep players like Flying Ryan Bowen.

And no matter what Tmac/Luther says above or how moronically he posts it.....JVG was FIRED....for failing.

And he is a QUITTER for quitting on the Knicks....you know JVG..when the going gets tough (errrr, the talent gets thin)....QUIT !

Oh and as to your point about Francis and Mobley, you need to learn how to read son.....I said JVG was a good coach for THOSE players to help get them under control, but when we got TMac....JVG was the WRONG coach...get it? Got it? Good !

JVG was a failure in Houston, winning 50 games is great, but if you get outcoached by a rookie coach in the playoffs and then blow game 7, both times after being up 2-0 and have a team with Tmac and Yao...you deserve to get tossed out on your arse.

Which Les and Morey did.

JVG rightly benched Swift, and Bonzi and I understand why he benched V-Span, I just disagree with it.

That team was going nowhere that year, and IMHO they should have been playing some of the younger guys to find out if they were going to be part of the team going forward.

Instead, we got to see Juwan Howard and Ryan Bowen and other older NBA players like Rod Strickland, Rick Brunson, Charles Oakley, Charlie Ward...and any other ex Knick that JVG could grab a spade and dig up......

JVG is not good as an announcer, he is GREAT....I enjoy listening to him and watching him on TV....all the more because he is not in Houston screwing up my favorite team anymore.

DD

[RonMexico]

Rick Adelman has as many Finals appearences as JVG and Avery.

[DaDakota]

Rick Adelman has as many Finals appearences as JVG and Avery.

No doubt but he at least gets deep into the playoffs, and can make adjustments, and has a better winning percentage, and understands how to play to his players strengths, and not to a particular system.

Adelman coaches what he has....JVG turns the roster over until he gets players that can play his system.

Give me Adelman 100 out of 100 times.

DD

[RonMexico]

I'll give you Mike D'Antoni 100 out of 100 times.

[DaDakota]

I'll give you Mike D'Antoni 100 out of 100 times.

I liked him as a coach, but that Shaq trade, wtf was he thinking?



DD

[DPG21920]

It is not about who is the better coach, you could make arguments both ways, but these guys are acting like JVG has had some stellar career. I have already disproved that theory. Then they act like the Mavs had a stacked roster and Houston's sucked. I disproved that theory. They act like he can do not wrong and that it was all the players fault, I disproved that theory.

Lets look at all those scenarios summarized:

1) I already posted all of JVG's career achievements and they are middle of the road.

2) I already compared the rosters and neither were "stacked", but they were both comparable and balanced. I pointed out that Houston had 2 all-stars while Dallas had 1. I pointed out that Dallas lacked a superstar at the 2 most important positions center/point guard, while Houston at least had one of those covered. Also, you can just ask simple questions to compare the rosters: would you rather have Yao/T-Mac or Dirk/Howard? Which center situation is better: Yao/Mutombo or Dampier/Diop? Who is the best player out of these: Dirk/Yao/Howard/T-Mac? Who would you rather have on your bench: Daniels/Harris/Van Horn/Griffin/Powell/Diop or Head/Bogans/Wesely/Swift/Mutombo/Hayes/Barry?

3) See Beno Udrih for example


ps: I think the Shaq move was not Mike D's decision. I think that was Kerr telling him: your style is not going to work.

[DPG21920]

Let me edit something: I think middle of the road is a bit harsh for JVG. His time with the Rockets was middle of the road, but the scope of his career has been above average. He is not elite by any means, but has done a good job.

[RonMexico]

Whether Kerr told Mike D his style wouldn't work or Mike D supported it, he still was poor at making in-game adjustments and over-used his aging players (Nash, Hill). For such an "innovative" offensive mind, I can't believe that he tensed up so much against the Spurs (i.e. blowing leads in Game 1 & 2 and going to Diaw in the post in Game 5 when a Nash-Stoudemire pick-n-roll would have provided a quality change of pace in the final 2 minutes).